The normal effect of making a spell permanent is to replace the duration (in this case, 1 hour(c)) with a duration of permanent, but not change any other features of the spell. If the intent was that the effect became Instant after an hour, there are ways it could have been phrased that would clearly specify that (not to say that 5e doesn't have a lot of sloppy writing).
The spell would end because it no longer has a target - it was cast on a creature, then that creature died while polymorphed, so I guess there's no more spell, either? There's no more magic dead goldfish or magic dead poo, it's just normal dead goldfish because the spell ended and isn't making the goldfish magical anymore.
Rereading the spell, the interpretation that makes sense to me is to just read the sentences in order. First, the spell says "The transformation lasts for the Duration, or until the target drops to 0 Hit Points or dies. " Great, that's how long the spell lasts! Except... "If you concentrate on this spell for the full Duration, transformation lasts until it is dispelled." OK, so this sentence supercedes the previous one, if you successfully concentrate on it for an hour the transformation lasts until dispelled, period. Previous ways of getting rid of it (dropping concentration, dropping to 0 hitpoints, running out of time) no longer apply.
And then AFTER that, the spell says "This spell has no effect on a shapechanger, or a creature with 0 hit points." This still supercedes the previous, if we go by your example... Which rounds back around to me being correct in my interpretation, if for the wrong reason.
I interpret that as being the first casting. The spell having no effect on a shapechanger obviously is referring to the first casting of the spell. It appears in the same sentence as the "or a creature with 0 hit points" so I also assume that this is meant to only apply at first casting, not be taken into consideration after the hour is up.
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And then AFTER that, the spell says "This spell has no effect on a shapechanger, or a creature with 0 hit points." This still supercedes the previous, if we go by your example... Which rounds back around to me being correct in my interpretation, if for the wrong reason.
I interpret that as being the first casting. The spell having no effect on a shapechanger obviously is referring to the first casting of the spell. It appears in the same sentence as the "or a creature with 0 hit points" so I also assume that this is meant to only apply at first casting, not be taken into consideration after the hour is up.
Curious what your take is on the situation if the target is killed while polymorphed. You seem to be going by the interpretation that they do not change back. So how do you reconcile this with the spell still running? Is the corpse still a polymorhed target that can be dispelled?
No. In my interpretation, if they die, they stay in the same body as when they died. Their body is an object, they're no longer a creature. Sure, the spell may have turned them into a different creature or just into a creature, but when you die, you're not a creature anymore.
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True Poly persists through anti magic field and can only be reverted by being dispelled. Kinda weird. It's an awesome spell and can create a lot of weird scenarios way up in tier 4. Combine that with simlacrum and you can have another "you" that obeys your commands as a sidekick dragon after a true poly.
Pretty sure they added "until dispelled" thing to give DM's the ability to drop characters out from a whole party of dragons flying around. The spell becomes permanent at the end of the hour, period. They are that creature or whatever they are turned into no matter what except for that one specific instance in which a level 9 spell has dispel magic cast and succeed. Drop to 0, they are dead, turn into a chair then burned into nothingness, same, no reverting. Pretty OP spell for sure, and awesome!
After the hour the only way to end the spell is to dispel it.
'Dispel' is not limited to dispel magic; it's any effect that terminates ongoing spells. That includes dispel magic, lesser/greater restoration (where applicable), remove curse (where applicable), any creature powers noted as ending spells, and any special termination conditions given for the spell (such as being reduced to 0 hp or dying). Antimagic Field does not end the spell, but it does suppress it.
Pretty sure they added "until dispelled" thing to give DM's the ability to drop characters out from a whole party of dragons flying around. The spell becomes permanent at the end of the hour, period. They are that creature or whatever they are turned into no matter what except for that one specific instance in which a level 9 spell has dispel magic cast and succeed. Drop to 0, they are dead, turn into a chair then burned into nothingness, same, no reverting. Pretty OP spell for sure, and awesome!
Uh huh. The caster has no control over the victim, so why would it not be an out for the caster? But you are avoiding the question. If dispel works, then there is still a spell there to dispel. If the spell only ends with dispel, then why would the spell be gone if the body is transformed by death or further transformed by fire? Again, whether it is living or dead should make no difference if dispel is the only way. If dispel is the only way to end the spell then death, destruction, etc do not end the spell because they are not dispel.
After the hour the only way to end the spell is to dispel it.
'Dispel' is not limited to dispel magic; it's any effect that terminates ongoing spells. That includes dispel magic, lesser/greater restoration (where applicable), remove curse (where applicable), any creature powers noted as ending spells, and any special termination conditions given for the spell (such as being reduced to 0 hp or dying). Antimagic Field does not end the spell, but it does suppress it.
It's the only caveat in the spell. It specifically states the spell becomes permanent and lasts until it's dispelled. True rez, comes back as the polymorphed form. Drop to 0, it dies. Anti magic field, suppresses magic but does not dispel it so therefore it does nothing. The only thing that changes it is the dispel after one hour, period. They discuss that in the vids too. Specific beats general and the spell is very specific about being dispelled is that being the only thing that reverts it from being permanent. It would be like if you had a character that had reincarnation cast on it. If you cast greater restoration, remove curse, anti magic field, dispel magic on the character, they do not revert to their original form as they are permanently the new race. This is the same except they added until dispelled at the end. Other than that, permanent means just that.
Suppression does not end the spell. It suppresses the effects. The spell is still there so that condition is still fulfilled. Who are 'they' and which vids? Specific beats general but antimagic field has its own specific. Reincarnation, like healing, raises, animate dead or create undead is one and done. There is nothing ongoing that can be dispelled, unlike as with True Polymorph. Dispel being there is a non-trivial 'except.'
The ones I listed above from Crawford. Specifically says anti magic field does nothing as the polymorphed creature is that creature now and cannot be suppressed. The only thing that effects it is it being dispelled. Other than that, you are that thing.
It's the only caveat in the spell. It specifically states the spell becomes permanent and lasts until it's dispelled. True rez, comes back as the polymorphed form. Drop to 0, it dies. Anti magic field, suppresses magic but does not dispel it so therefore it does nothing.
Antimagic field applies to permanent spells, and has the same effect as it does on any other spell -- the spell's effects are suppressed.
"Lasts until dispelled" is not some special unique duration that only applies to True Polymorph. It's just a standard permanent duration. Also, a duration of Until Dispelled does not prevent the spell being ended in another way; looking at other examples:
Arcane Lock: no special dispel conditions, but explicitly can be suppressed.
Sequester: ends if target takes damage, or under a condition specified by the caster.
Simulacrum: ends if reduced to 0 hp, or the caster recasts the spell.
As for the Sage Advice: an unfortunate problem with 5e is that it does not seem to have been given a proper review by a technical writer. If it's not suppressed by Antimagic Field it should not be classed as permanent until dispelled.
It's the only caveat in the spell. It specifically states the spell becomes permanent and lasts until it's dispelled. True rez, comes back as the polymorphed form. Drop to 0, it dies. Anti magic field, suppresses magic but does not dispel it so therefore it does nothing.
Antimagic field applies to permanent spells, and has the same effect as it does on any other spell -- the spell's effects are suppressed.
"Lasts until dispelled" is not some special unique duration that only applies to True Polymorph. It's just a standard permanent duration. Also, a duration of Until Dispelled does not prevent the spell being ended in another way; looking at other examples:
Arcane Lock: no special dispel conditions, but explicitly can be suppressed.
Sequester: ends if target takes damage, or under a condition specified by the caster.
Simulacrum: ends if reduced to 0 hp, or the caster recasts the spell.
As for the Sage Advice: an unfortunate problem with 5e is that it does not seem to have been given a proper review by a technical writer. If it's not suppressed by Antimagic Field it should not be classed as permanent until dispelled.
All the spells you listed have an active magic component that can be suppressed. True Poly is not like those in that is specifically says permanent. Same as if someone heals you with magic to bring you back to consciousness, an anti magic field won't knock you back out because magic healed you. The only out after the hour in true poly is dispel, period.
Don't have time to summarise the thread, but y'all need to consider how magic works in Your world and judge based on that. The way the bulk of you are interpreting Dispel as the only way to end it (as written) is that when Dispel is cast on a true poly target, Its not so much ending the spell, but more like polymorphing the target back.
Yes, it is "ending the spell", but practically that's not how it's working. Despite being RAW.
My query, to those stating that any nonlethal damage can end True Polymorph (since being reduced to zero hit points is in no way 'dying' in 5e).
Why does this make the spell better?
The only argument I can see for pushing this narrative and attempting to force it on other players is the belief that True Polymorph is bullshit and should be easy to end, even after its effects have become ongoing. Any nasty critter transformed into a llama just needs to bang its head against a rock once or twice and it's free. Turn your friend into a big, powerful critter? Bad guys just need to knock that friend on the head once or twice and he's back to being Steve the Squishy Sorcerer. Turn a giant dragon into a commemorative spoon? The moment that spoon hits a hot soup bowl, or gets slightly bent, it's considered 'damaged', loses its one hit point, and turns back into a dragon in your mouth.
If your goal is to jimmyjohn the spell such that any situation the DM desires can end it whenever the DM likes, why not simply ban it from your table rather than allow players to believe they've gained access to a splendid tool they can use to accomplish the sort of Awesome Things you've put years of your life into an epic-level campaign to do? Just tell your players outright that True Polymorph is banned from your table right alongside Wish, and ninth-level spell slots are to be used for upcasting other spells rather than for ninth-level magic. Solves the problem neatly ahead of time, ne?
All the spells you listed have an active magic component that can be suppressed. True Poly is not like those in that is specifically says permanent.
No it doesn't. It says "If you concentrate on this spell for the full duration, the spell lasts until it is dispelled." Which is identical to the wording of the other spells.
My query, to those stating that any nonlethal damage can end True Polymorph (since being reduced to zero hit points is in no way 'dying' in 5e).
Why does this make the spell better?
What does that have to do with anything? We're discussing what the spell as written does, not what the spell should do. Nothing preventing you from houseruling it into an instant effect.
I suppose my intent is trying to understand why people do not want True Polymorph to do what True Polymorph is obviously intended to do - i.e. transform something, on a more-or-less permanent basis.
Yes, the spell can be dispelled. That means it's an ongoing effect, and a typical reading of the spell would posit that once the spell ends, so do its effects. Why that is being used as a bludgeon to insist that the spell does not function is strange to me, as is the naked hostility towards the spell. Okay, it's a potentially game-breakingly powerful spell. It's ninth level. A spellcaster at a minimum of 17th level has any number of ways to break the game beyond repair; any campaign that makes it that far continues basically because both players and DM have agreed to continue it, refraining from actions which would shatter the game. That's just how high-level D&D works, and why so few people ever get to play it. Not many can be totally aware of a myriad number of ways they personally could shatter the game, ostensibly in their favor, and then simply decide not to.
True polymorph's duration is not until dispelled, it is up to 1 hour depending on concentration.
If maintained for an hour, its duration changes to "Until Dispelled". There are multiple spells that are capable of changing their duration to Until Dispelled. Compare:
Wall of Stone: If you maintain your concentration on this spell for its whole duration, the wall becomes permanent and can't be dispelled.
True Polymorph: If you concentrate on this spell for the full duration, the spell lasts until it is dispelled.
Those are obviously different. You want them to behave the same way.
After the 1 hour duration of true polymorph is up the caster no longer has to concentrate on the spell because it has essentially ended and the effect has become permanent... that is until it is dispelled.
The effect's duration has changed to "until dispelled", causing it to behave identically to any other spell that is until dispelled. Which means it's an ongoing magical effect that can be detected with detect magic and suppressed with antimagic field.
True polymorph's duration is not until dispelled, it is up to 1 hour depending on concentration. And true polymorph does say it cannot be suppressed... as do both game designers, mike mearls and jeremy crawford... as do most who understand is the simplest of terms that the spell is permanent past the 1 hour concentration and can only be ended by dispel after that.
Both undead and familiars are created by spells that don't say they cannot be suppressed... never the less are not suppressed by anti-magic fields... and neither is any creature that has been true polymorphed and lasted past the 1 hour duration.
1) No spell specifically says that it can be suppressed. Does that mean all spells are immune to anti magic field?
2) Evidence regarding Mike and Jeremy? I can find no such reference on a quick google search.
3) Antimagic field DOES NOT END SPELLS. It only suppresses the effects. The spells are actually still running and as soon as the spell effect is no longer in the field, the spell's effect returns.
4) Undead have no spell to suppress. Familiars are conjured, and as such Antimagic Field specifically mentions such creatures are temporarily unsummoned. If Familiars are not unsummoned while in the field, then that is breaking both spell descriptions involved.
1) Only spells that say the specific way they can be ended. Lasts until dispelled means exactly that.
2) Just because you couldn’t find it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Look through the post though and you’ll see links I posted where they clear it up, no need to google.
3) You are correct, except in this instance anti magic field will not have an effect, per the spell and designers.
4) Correct again. Notice how it also doesn’t say anything about True Polymorph though. Not that it should list how it effects every spell as that would be insane, but it’s quite clear how this spell works.
Anyone using the videos to claim that the game designers say true polymorph cannot be suppressed by an anti-magic field should watch them again. Maybe I missed it, but at no point did I hear them they say that. If I missed it, give me a time stamp or something not just a 40 min video. There was some talk about multiple castings of true polymorph, but clearly true polymorph is an ongoing magical effect and so is affected by anti-magic field.
I'm not as sure where I sit with respect to a true polymorphed creature reverting at 0 hp. I may agree that they don't revert by RAW, but I don't think that's RAI. I watched the videos, and JC never weighed in on that point. Again, if I missed it, please provide a timestamp.
The '... until dispelled' is a very different wording than just using 'permanent'. In my mind, there are too many loopholes, if the transformation stays after death but can still be dispelled.
I see manly issues with the questions raised, what happens if you chop the carcass of the polymorphed creature apart, use its parts for making tools, armour, weapons, that are carried wherever, if the dead creature gets eaten and what happens with what part if any of these parts gets dispelled. Revert all parts all over the multiverse? Only the one part that is dispelled? What with creatures having eaten parts of the polymorphed creature? Does the spell persist in that carnivore? Can it be dispelled there, because if you transform a giant into a rat and eat it then, and it gets dispelled, you will probably die because of the expanding mass of flesh, that reforms within your body.
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The normal effect of making a spell permanent is to replace the duration (in this case, 1 hour(c)) with a duration of permanent, but not change any other features of the spell. If the intent was that the effect became Instant after an hour, there are ways it could have been phrased that would clearly specify that (not to say that 5e doesn't have a lot of sloppy writing).
Dropping to 0 hp or dying is similar to dispelling. It's a special termination condition, not a separate duration.
Clearly not true. An anti-magic field suppresses ongoing magical effects, and if it can be dispelled there's an ongoing magical effect.
I interpret that as being the first casting. The spell having no effect on a shapechanger obviously is referring to the first casting of the spell. It appears in the same sentence as the "or a creature with 0 hit points" so I also assume that this is meant to only apply at first casting, not be taken into consideration after the hour is up.
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No. In my interpretation, if they die, they stay in the same body as when they died. Their body is an object, they're no longer a creature. Sure, the spell may have turned them into a different creature or just into a creature, but when you die, you're not a creature anymore.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bP1k2VvUqOQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWOsPhKNyPk
True Poly persists through anti magic field and can only be reverted by being dispelled. Kinda weird. It's an awesome spell and can create a lot of weird scenarios way up in tier 4. Combine that with simlacrum and you can have another "you" that obeys your commands as a sidekick dragon after a true poly.
Pretty sure they added "until dispelled" thing to give DM's the ability to drop characters out from a whole party of dragons flying around. The spell becomes permanent at the end of the hour, period. They are that creature or whatever they are turned into no matter what except for that one specific instance in which a level 9 spell has dispel magic cast and succeed. Drop to 0, they are dead, turn into a chair then burned into nothingness, same, no reverting. Pretty OP spell for sure, and awesome!
'Dispel' is not limited to dispel magic; it's any effect that terminates ongoing spells. That includes dispel magic, lesser/greater restoration (where applicable), remove curse (where applicable), any creature powers noted as ending spells, and any special termination conditions given for the spell (such as being reduced to 0 hp or dying). Antimagic Field does not end the spell, but it does suppress it.
It's the only caveat in the spell. It specifically states the spell becomes permanent and lasts until it's dispelled. True rez, comes back as the polymorphed form. Drop to 0, it dies. Anti magic field, suppresses magic but does not dispel it so therefore it does nothing. The only thing that changes it is the dispel after one hour, period. They discuss that in the vids too. Specific beats general and the spell is very specific about being dispelled is that being the only thing that reverts it from being permanent. It would be like if you had a character that had reincarnation cast on it. If you cast greater restoration, remove curse, anti magic field, dispel magic on the character, they do not revert to their original form as they are permanently the new race. This is the same except they added until dispelled at the end. Other than that, permanent means just that.
The ones I listed above from Crawford. Specifically says anti magic field does nothing as the polymorphed creature is that creature now and cannot be suppressed. The only thing that effects it is it being dispelled. Other than that, you are that thing.
Antimagic field applies to permanent spells, and has the same effect as it does on any other spell -- the spell's effects are suppressed.
"Lasts until dispelled" is not some special unique duration that only applies to True Polymorph. It's just a standard permanent duration. Also, a duration of Until Dispelled does not prevent the spell being ended in another way; looking at other examples:
As for the Sage Advice: an unfortunate problem with 5e is that it does not seem to have been given a proper review by a technical writer. If it's not suppressed by Antimagic Field it should not be classed as permanent until dispelled.
All the spells you listed have an active magic component that can be suppressed. True Poly is not like those in that is specifically says permanent. Same as if someone heals you with magic to bring you back to consciousness, an anti magic field won't knock you back out because magic healed you. The only out after the hour in true poly is dispel, period.
Don't have time to summarise the thread, but y'all need to consider how magic works in Your world and judge based on that. The way the bulk of you are interpreting Dispel as the only way to end it (as written) is that when Dispel is cast on a true poly target, Its not so much ending the spell, but more like polymorphing the target back.
Yes, it is "ending the spell", but practically that's not how it's working. Despite being RAW.
This is an inconsistency.
My query, to those stating that any nonlethal damage can end True Polymorph (since being reduced to zero hit points is in no way 'dying' in 5e).
Why does this make the spell better?
The only argument I can see for pushing this narrative and attempting to force it on other players is the belief that True Polymorph is bullshit and should be easy to end, even after its effects have become ongoing. Any nasty critter transformed into a llama just needs to bang its head against a rock once or twice and it's free. Turn your friend into a big, powerful critter? Bad guys just need to knock that friend on the head once or twice and he's back to being Steve the Squishy Sorcerer. Turn a giant dragon into a commemorative spoon? The moment that spoon hits a hot soup bowl, or gets slightly bent, it's considered 'damaged', loses its one hit point, and turns back into a dragon in your mouth.
If your goal is to jimmyjohn the spell such that any situation the DM desires can end it whenever the DM likes, why not simply ban it from your table rather than allow players to believe they've gained access to a splendid tool they can use to accomplish the sort of Awesome Things you've put years of your life into an epic-level campaign to do? Just tell your players outright that True Polymorph is banned from your table right alongside Wish, and ninth-level spell slots are to be used for upcasting other spells rather than for ninth-level magic. Solves the problem neatly ahead of time, ne?
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No it doesn't. It says "If you concentrate on this spell for the full duration, the spell lasts until it is dispelled." Which is identical to the wording of the other spells.
What does that have to do with anything? We're discussing what the spell as written does, not what the spell should do. Nothing preventing you from houseruling it into an instant effect.
I suppose my intent is trying to understand why people do not want True Polymorph to do what True Polymorph is obviously intended to do - i.e. transform something, on a more-or-less permanent basis.
Yes, the spell can be dispelled. That means it's an ongoing effect, and a typical reading of the spell would posit that once the spell ends, so do its effects. Why that is being used as a bludgeon to insist that the spell does not function is strange to me, as is the naked hostility towards the spell. Okay, it's a potentially game-breakingly powerful spell. It's ninth level. A spellcaster at a minimum of 17th level has any number of ways to break the game beyond repair; any campaign that makes it that far continues basically because both players and DM have agreed to continue it, refraining from actions which would shatter the game. That's just how high-level D&D works, and why so few people ever get to play it. Not many can be totally aware of a myriad number of ways they personally could shatter the game, ostensibly in their favor, and then simply decide not to.
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If maintained for an hour, its duration changes to "Until Dispelled". There are multiple spells that are capable of changing their duration to Until Dispelled. Compare:
Those are obviously different. You want them to behave the same way.
The effect's duration has changed to "until dispelled", causing it to behave identically to any other spell that is until dispelled. Which means it's an ongoing magical effect that can be detected with detect magic and suppressed with antimagic field.
1) Only spells that say the specific way they can be ended. Lasts until dispelled means exactly that.
2) Just because you couldn’t find it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Look through the post though and you’ll see links I posted where they clear it up, no need to google.
3) You are correct, except in this instance anti magic field will not have an effect, per the spell and designers.
4) Correct again. Notice how it also doesn’t say anything about True Polymorph though. Not that it should list how it effects every spell as that would be insane, but it’s quite clear how this spell works.
Anyone using the videos to claim that the game designers say true polymorph cannot be suppressed by an anti-magic field should watch them again. Maybe I missed it, but at no point did I hear them they say that. If I missed it, give me a time stamp or something not just a 40 min video. There was some talk about multiple castings of true polymorph, but clearly true polymorph is an ongoing magical effect and so is affected by anti-magic field.
I'm not as sure where I sit with respect to a true polymorphed creature reverting at 0 hp. I may agree that they don't revert by RAW, but I don't think that's RAI. I watched the videos, and JC never weighed in on that point. Again, if I missed it, please provide a timestamp.
I am with Kotath on this one.
The '... until dispelled' is a very different wording than just using 'permanent'. In my mind, there are too many loopholes, if the transformation stays after death but can still be dispelled.
I see manly issues with the questions raised, what happens if you chop the carcass of the polymorphed creature apart, use its parts for making tools, armour, weapons, that are carried wherever, if the dead creature gets eaten and what happens with what part if any of these parts gets dispelled. Revert all parts all over the multiverse? Only the one part that is dispelled? What with creatures having eaten parts of the polymorphed creature? Does the spell persist in that carnivore? Can it be dispelled there, because if you transform a giant into a rat and eat it then, and it gets dispelled, you will probably die because of the expanding mass of flesh, that reforms within your body.