i know a character can be a lv 10 paladin and lv 10 fighter,but could it be possable to be able to be a level 20 rogue,but have say,5 of those levels in assassin,5 in Thief,and 10 in Phantom?
It can't be done RAW. The only way you could get a combination of the abilities from those subclasses is to homebrew your own subclass that uses aspects of the ones you want - and even then it's not likely to be balanced.
It's not allowed RAW, but it fits fairly comfortably within the rest of the 5E framework if you attempt it (other than being wholly incompatible with a dndbeyond character sheet). It definitely allows players to optimize more than regular multiclassing would allow, but much less than other similar houserules like gestalt characters. I couldn't recommend it for newer players, there's more than enough depth in 5E to keep you busy with nuanced builds, but it could be a fun way to shake up a game for a table of experienced optimizers.
Yeah, precisely that. Gestalt characters can be a fun way to run a game for a solo player or for two players, since it let's them fit multiple party roles at once without needing to give them sidekicks. Allowing a character to multi-subclass is probably literally the opposite of that, allowing a player to hyper-specialize in whatever system it is they're trying to break by multi-fightering for more Action Surges or something. Either way, not supported by 5E rules, but the way that 5E handles class features and proficiency bonuses etc. actually makes it much easier to figure out how it would work than 3.5 or 4 made it.
I do not understand your table at all, but to answer your question:
Artificers only get to choose a subclass once, at third level. The only way to access a second artificer subclass would be to multiclass into a second instance of artificer and reach third level again, which would waste two levels, since the features would be redundant and not stack, so it would be a terrible idea even if it were allowed. But, it's not allowed, because the multiclassing rules very specifically say that you gain a level of a new class, instead of a current class.
RAW or RAI, there is zero way to do this reasonably without totally throwing off game balance.
RAF, I could see allowing something like this as a DM, but with a ton of stipulations. Basically, at any level where you'd earn a subclass ability, you can add a new level introductory subclass ability (so, in the case of the artificer, a level three subclass feature at level three, and then another level three subclass feature at level five). Then only allow adding the next ability from a given subclass the next time you'd normally get a subclass ability (so you could get a level five feature at level nine as an artificer, so long as it is with a subclass already started).
I'd have to double check to make sure this doesn't make a single character either crazy complicated or crazy powerful. I'd generally say "no" to this idea, unless the player gave me a really compelling reason.
You absolutely, 100%, cannot just skip level features (such as ASIs) just because you want something else and still maintain balance. That is recipe for disaster. At that point, just say "no classes" and just allow players to pick from a list of features every time they level up.
i can take 3 druid 3 ranger 3 monk 3 fighter 3 rogue 3 wizard 2sorcerers 27 abpointbuy dex 13 wis 13 int 13 cha 13 con 10 str13 you dont get any ASI past lv 3 how is this balanced and RAW AND RAI, but not my example. This mess is so underpowered and monk and fighter dont give more actions, how is this acceptable and not my armored artillerist maverick example?
I think you're vastly misreading the multiclass rules if you think yours is acceptable but the abomination 7-class MC you gave just now is not. I don't know what better to say about what is acceptable than "one is allowed by the rules, one is not".
Underpowered is far preferable to overpowered.
In none of those examples do you skip a level's abilities. You just switch from gaining levels in one class to gaining them in another... you don't skip an ASI because you never add a fourth level for any class.
For example, if you go Fighter 3, then MC into, say, Rogue for a 1 level dip (so character level four), and then you go back to Fighter 4 (at character level five), you still get the Fighter 4 ASI. That does not change. You do NOT skip Fighter 4 if you add more levels in Fighter, you only delay it.
how is this acceptable and not my armored artillerist maverick example?
Because in your example you seem to be giving yourself the level 15 Artillerist subclass feature at character level 15 - even though you're saying your multisubclassing. Getting a different subclass would slow your progress down - not allow you to pick and choose.
If you really wanted a different subclasses ability at the right levels - just make a new homebrew subclass and give it the subclass abilities that you want. It's a much simpler solution.
Not to mention your initial plan has, by my count, has 11(!) subclass abilities. Single-classing will never get you more than 4-5, and multiclassing either gets you a lot of low-level subclass abilities, or 4-5 total subclass abilities.
Now look at that and try to say it's not extremely overpowered. There's a reason it's not allowed.
Wouldn't be totally crazy if you did it that way. Assuming other base Artificer features wouldn't stack (by RAW, they shouldn't, but then again who cares about RAW at this point), you'd have six dead levels (Artificer 1-2 three times). You'd only get three ASIs, though honestly on an Artificer that might not be so bad.
BUT you'd miss out on all the extra attunement slots that Artificers get. You'd miss out on that amazing Artificer capstone.
Unclear (again, because we're beyond RAW at this point) how infusions known or infused items tables would work (or spells, though that's a little different since the rules are different when "multiclassing"). I'd rule that, since none of your subclasses made it beyond ninth level, that none of you spell slots or infusions or infusion slots ever progress beyond ninth level.
But really, I'd rule that this was disallowed. The only way to multi-subclass that makes reasonable sense, in my opinion, is to only allow a new subclass when you get a new subclass ability, and have those act as mini-class delineators.
To really illustrate how this entire thoughtline is ridiculous, think about multi-subclassing CLERIC. You could be Cleric 1 a total of fourteen times... and always have 28 spells prepared plus whatever your WIS modifier is (at least).
I think technically you'd be a level 20 Artificer so you'd follow the class table for that. So full infusions known - all ASI's - full spell slots - level 5 spells - extra attunement slots - the works.
But really it's just a huge can of worms that really shouldn't be touched. The only thing I would allow is a homebrew subclass - or like you say - mixing and matching subclasses. But even then I'd be really careful.
You're getting two subclass capstones AND the crazy, crazy good Artificer capstone with your plan. Yours is unbelievably OP.
Not sure what you think would make something overpowered if you are viewing everything as simply "there's only one action and one bonus action". Yes, you're right. But if I gave a single character access to every single spell in the game, that character would be overpowered.
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i know a character can be a lv 10 paladin and lv 10 fighter,but could it be possable to be able to be a level 20 rogue,but have say,5 of those levels in assassin,5 in Thief,and 10 in Phantom?
Nope, you can't multiclass into your own class, so there's no way to get multiples of the same subclass
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It can't be done RAW. The only way you could get a combination of the abilities from those subclasses is to homebrew your own subclass that uses aspects of the ones you want - and even then it's not likely to be balanced.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
It's not allowed RAW, but it fits fairly comfortably within the rest of the 5E framework if you attempt it (other than being wholly incompatible with a dndbeyond character sheet). It definitely allows players to optimize more than regular multiclassing would allow, but much less than other similar houserules like gestalt characters. I couldn't recommend it for newer players, there's more than enough depth in 5E to keep you busy with nuanced builds, but it could be a fun way to shake up a game for a table of experienced optimizers.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
gestalt? is that where a level 20 PC is a lv 20 rogue AND wizard,rather then R 10 W 10? or is it something else?
Yeah, precisely that. Gestalt characters can be a fun way to run a game for a solo player or for two players, since it let's them fit multiple party roles at once without needing to give them sidekicks. Allowing a character to multi-subclass is probably literally the opposite of that, allowing a player to hyper-specialize in whatever system it is they're trying to break by multi-fightering for more Action Surges or something. Either way, not supported by 5E rules, but the way that 5E handles class features and proficiency bonuses etc. actually makes it much easier to figure out how it would work than 3.5 or 4 made it.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I do not understand your table at all, but to answer your question:
Artificers only get to choose a subclass once, at third level. The only way to access a second artificer subclass would be to multiclass into a second instance of artificer and reach third level again, which would waste two levels, since the features would be redundant and not stack, so it would be a terrible idea even if it were allowed. But, it's not allowed, because the multiclassing rules very specifically say that you gain a level of a new class, instead of a current class.
RAW or RAI, there is zero way to do this reasonably without totally throwing off game balance.
RAF, I could see allowing something like this as a DM, but with a ton of stipulations. Basically, at any level where you'd earn a subclass ability, you can add a new level introductory subclass ability (so, in the case of the artificer, a level three subclass feature at level three, and then another level three subclass feature at level five). Then only allow adding the next ability from a given subclass the next time you'd normally get a subclass ability (so you could get a level five feature at level nine as an artificer, so long as it is with a subclass already started).
I'd have to double check to make sure this doesn't make a single character either crazy complicated or crazy powerful. I'd generally say "no" to this idea, unless the player gave me a really compelling reason.
You absolutely, 100%, cannot just skip level features (such as ASIs) just because you want something else and still maintain balance. That is recipe for disaster. At that point, just say "no classes" and just allow players to pick from a list of features every time they level up.
I think you're vastly misreading the multiclass rules if you think yours is acceptable but the abomination 7-class MC you gave just now is not. I don't know what better to say about what is acceptable than "one is allowed by the rules, one is not".
Underpowered is far preferable to overpowered.
In none of those examples do you skip a level's abilities. You just switch from gaining levels in one class to gaining them in another... you don't skip an ASI because you never add a fourth level for any class.
For example, if you go Fighter 3, then MC into, say, Rogue for a 1 level dip (so character level four), and then you go back to Fighter 4 (at character level five), you still get the Fighter 4 ASI. That does not change. You do NOT skip Fighter 4 if you add more levels in Fighter, you only delay it.
Because in your example you seem to be giving yourself the level 15 Artillerist subclass feature at character level 15 - even though you're saying your multisubclassing. Getting a different subclass would slow your progress down - not allow you to pick and choose.
If you really wanted a different subclasses ability at the right levels - just make a new homebrew subclass and give it the subclass abilities that you want. It's a much simpler solution.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
Not to mention your initial plan has, by my count, has 11(!) subclass abilities. Single-classing will never get you more than 4-5, and multiclassing either gets you a lot of low-level subclass abilities, or 4-5 total subclass abilities.
If we assume you actually could mutli-subclass - with Artificer you could make a level 20 character with:
9 levels in Artillerist for:
- (3) Tool Proficiency
- (3) Artillerist Spells: (3) Shield, Thunderwave, (5) Scorching Ray, Shatter, (9) Fireball and Wind Wall.
- (3) Eldritch Cannons
- (5) Arcane Firearm
- (9) Explosive Cannon
5 levels in Armourer for:
- (3) Tools of the Trade
- (3) Armourer Spells: (3) Magic Missile, Thunderwave, (5) Mirror Image and Shatter.
- (3) Arcane Armour
- (3) Armour Model
- (5) Extra Attack
3 levels in Battle Smith for:
- (3) Tool Proficiency
- (3) Battle Smith Spells: (3) Heroism and Shield.
- (3) Battle Ready
- (3) Steel Defender
3 levels in Alchemist for:
- (3) Tool Proficiency
- (3) Alchemist Spells: (3) Healing Word and Ray of Sickness.
- (3) Experimental Elixir
(Or any other combination of 9 - 5 - 3 and 3)
Now look at that and try to say it's not extremely overpowered. There's a reason it's not allowed.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
Wouldn't be totally crazy if you did it that way. Assuming other base Artificer features wouldn't stack (by RAW, they shouldn't, but then again who cares about RAW at this point), you'd have six dead levels (Artificer 1-2 three times). You'd only get three ASIs, though honestly on an Artificer that might not be so bad.
BUT you'd miss out on all the extra attunement slots that Artificers get. You'd miss out on that amazing Artificer capstone.
Unclear (again, because we're beyond RAW at this point) how infusions known or infused items tables would work (or spells, though that's a little different since the rules are different when "multiclassing"). I'd rule that, since none of your subclasses made it beyond ninth level, that none of you spell slots or infusions or infusion slots ever progress beyond ninth level.
But really, I'd rule that this was disallowed. The only way to multi-subclass that makes reasonable sense, in my opinion, is to only allow a new subclass when you get a new subclass ability, and have those act as mini-class delineators.
To really illustrate how this entire thoughtline is ridiculous, think about multi-subclassing CLERIC. You could be Cleric 1 a total of fourteen times... and always have 28 spells prepared plus whatever your WIS modifier is (at least).
I think technically you'd be a level 20 Artificer so you'd follow the class table for that. So full infusions known - all ASI's - full spell slots - level 5 spells - extra attunement slots - the works.
But really it's just a huge can of worms that really shouldn't be touched. The only thing I would allow is a homebrew subclass - or like you say - mixing and matching subclasses. But even then I'd be really careful.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
You're getting two subclass capstones AND the crazy, crazy good Artificer capstone with your plan. Yours is unbelievably OP.
Not sure what you think would make something overpowered if you are viewing everything as simply "there's only one action and one bonus action". Yes, you're right. But if I gave a single character access to every single spell in the game, that character would be overpowered.