I ran into two situations in my last gaming session I want to get the hive-mind opinions on how they were ruled.
Character: 3rd Level Monk with 40 feet movement.
Question 1:
On the Monk turn
Action: Takes the Dash action to 80 feet movement. Bonus Action: Spend's 1 Ki point for 'Step of the Wind' to Dash for an additional 80 feet of movement. Total Move Distance 160 feet.
My take away was this was NOT a valid turn because your Dash distance is based on the character's existing movement to Dash again as a bonus action has no movement distance left to perform that action. I'm using the Combat chapter under the Movement and Position section for the basis of my rules.
Question 2:
The monk is engaged with two Lizardfolk
On the Monk turn
Action: Takes the Disengage action to moves away from the engaged Lizardfolk to prevent Attack Of Opportunities. Once the Monk was out of the Lizardfolk reach 10 feet. Bonus Action: Spend's 1 Ki point for 'Step of the Wind' to Dash for the remaining 30 feet of movement for 60 feet.
My take away was this IS A VALID turn since there was still preexisting movement left to dash after preforming the Disengage action. The fact that he Disengaged and then Dash is not a problem to perform.
The monk's base movement is 40. Using the dash action adds another 40. Using the bonus action step of the wind to dash again adds 40' more for a total of 120' of movement with no other actions except a free object interaction possible.
Question 2:
It was a valid action but you are misinterpreting dash. It does not give you movement equal to your remaining movement on a turn. It gives you movement equal to your base movement.
----
"DASH When you take the Dash action, you gain extra movement for the current turn. The increase equals your speed, after applying any modifiers. With a speed of 30 feet, for example, you can move up to 60 feet on your turn if you dash. Any increase or decrease to your speed changes this additional movement by the same amount. If your speed of 30 feet is reduced to 15 feet, for instance, you can move up to 30 feet this turn if you dash."
Your speed is your base movement rate. i.e. in this case for the monk it is 40' base. If the monk was slowed then the their movement rate would be halved. If they were hasted it would be doubled. This is what the text is referring to as your speed after applying modifiers. How far you have moved on a given turn is not a modifier. Your speed is not how much you have left to move on a turn ... your speed is the distance you CAN move at the start of the turn and the speed is only reduced or increased by outside effects not by moving.
Some examples from the PHB that make this clearer:
"On your turn, you can move a distance up to your speed. You can use as much or as little of your speed as you like on your turn, following the rules here."
"You can break up your movement on your turn, using some of your speed before and after your action. For example, if you have a speed of 30 feet, you can move 10 feet, take your action, and then move 20 feet."
However ...
I can see where your confusion is coming from since the PHB clearly refers to reducing speed as a character expends movement.
"However you're moving, you deduct the distance of each part of your move from your speed until it is used up or until you are done moving."
Most people I know interpret this as accounting for how far you have moved. Your "speed" remains what it was at the start of the turn but your remaining movement is your speed less how far you have moved.
The monk's base movement is 40. Using the dash action adds another 40. Using the bonus action step of the wind to dash again adds 40' more for a total of 120' of movement with no other actions except a free object interaction possible.
Question 2:
It was a valid action but you are misinterpreting dash. It does not give you movement equal to your remaining movement on a turn. It gives you movement equal to your base movement.
----
"DASH When you take the Dash action, you gain extra movement for the current turn. The increase equals your speed, after applying any modifiers. With a speed of 30 feet, for example, you can move up to 60 feet on your turn if you dash. Any increase or decrease to your speed changes this additional movement by the same amount. If your speed of 30 feet is reduced to 15 feet, for instance, you can move up to 30 feet this turn if you dash."
Your speed is your base movement rate. i.e. in this case for the monk it is 40' base. If the monk was slowed then the their movement rate would be halved. If they were hasted it would be doubled. This is what the text is referring to as your speed after applying modifiers. How far you have moved on a given turn is not a modifier. Your speed is not how much you have left to move on a turn ... your speed is the distance you CAN move at the start of the turn and the speed is only reduced or increased by outside effects not by moving.
Some examples from the PHB that make this clearer:
"On your turn, you can move a distance up to your speed. You can use as much or as little of your speed as you like on your turn, following the rules here."
"You can break up your movement on your turn, using some of your speed before and after your action. For example, if you have a speed of 30 feet, you can move 10 feet, take your action, and then move 20 feet."
However ...
I can see where your confusion is coming from since the PHB clearly refers to reducing speed as a character expends movement.
"However you're moving, you deduct the distance of each part of your move from your speed until it is used up or until you are done moving."
Most people I know interpret this as accounting for how far you have moved. Your "speed" remains what it was at the start of the turn but your remaining movement is your speed less how far you have moved.
"However you're moving, you deduct the distance of each part of your move from your speed until it is used up or until you are done moving."
Yeah, that is where I was basing my thought and looking at the "Using Different Speeds" lumping it into that movement rule.
Using Different Speeds
If you have more than one speed, such as your walking speed and a flying speed, you can switch back and forth between your speeds during your move. Whenever you switch, subtract the distance you've already moved from the new speed. The result determines how much farther you can move. If the result is 0 or less, you can't use the new speed during the current move.
For example, if you have a speed of 30 and a flying speed of 60 because a wizard cast the fly spell on you, you could fly 20 feet, then walk 10 feet, and then leap into the air to fly 30 feet more.
But I guess since the movement is still a Dash the same time of movement I should remove that thinking from applying the distance allowed.
As far as speed being reduced/increased goes, we are talking about difficult terrain, we are talking about the movement penalty of Ray of Frost. Also, a monks Unarmored Movement bonus, etc.
In the second example, the Monk could have used all 40 ft of movement to disengage AND used Step of the Wind to Dash 40 ft.
Just a little argument insurance below snipped from the SA.
If you have a feature like Cunning Action or Step of the Wind, can you take the Dash action more than once on your turn?
If you can take the Dash action as a bonus action, nothing in the rules prevents you from taking the Dash action with your regular action too. The same principle holds when you use a feature like Action Surge; you could use both of your actions to take the Dash action.
I think the wording in your questions is the problem.
The Monk used 40 ft in movement, then he dashed for 40 ft of movement, THEN he used Step of the Wind for 40 ft of movement. He didn't Dash for 80 ft and then use Step of the Wind.
I think the wording in your questions is the problem.
The Monk used 40 ft in movement, then he dashed for 40 ft of movement, THEN he used Step of the Wind for 40 ft of movement. He didn't Dash for 80 ft and then use Step of the Wind.
Yup, that's it. Dash is basically just saying you can use your regular movement twice.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I ran into two situations in my last gaming session I want to get the hive-mind opinions on how they were ruled.
Character: 3rd Level Monk with 40 feet movement.
Question 1:
On the Monk turn
Action: Takes the Dash action to 80 feet movement. Bonus Action: Spend's 1 Ki point for 'Step of the Wind' to Dash for an additional 80 feet of movement. Total Move Distance 160 feet.
My take away was this was NOT a valid turn because your Dash distance is based on the character's existing movement to Dash again as a bonus action has no movement distance left to perform that action. I'm using the Combat chapter under the Movement and Position section for the basis of my rules.
Question 2:
The monk is engaged with two Lizardfolk
On the Monk turn
Action: Takes the Disengage action to moves away from the engaged Lizardfolk to prevent Attack Of Opportunities. Once the Monk was out of the Lizardfolk reach 10 feet. Bonus Action: Spend's 1 Ki point for 'Step of the Wind' to Dash for the remaining 30 feet of movement for 60 feet.
My take away was this IS A VALID turn since there was still preexisting movement left to dash after preforming the Disengage action. The fact that he Disengaged and then Dash is not a problem to perform.
Question 1: Think of your movement speed as a resource to be spent. Normally you spend 1ft of your movement speed to travel 1ft. Difficult terrain requires you to spend more to move the same amount(usually double, though sometimes more). Dash basically gives you another allotment of that resource equal to your default amount. So if your default walking speed is 40ft, then any time you Dash you get another 40ft of movement to play with. If you can Dash multiple times on a turn(such as a Monk with Step Of The Wind, a Rogue with Cunning Action, a Fighter with Action Surge, or anyone under the effect of a Haste spell), each Dash gets you another 40ft. Multiple Dash actions are additive, not multiplicative.
Question 2: If it's the same Monk, they have 40ft of movement. So, they use their Action to Disengage. They move 10ft. They still have 30ft of movement remaining. If they use Step Of The Wind to Dash as a bonus action, that gives them an additional 40ft of movement, so they now have a total of 70ft of movement available to them on this turn. You treated Dash as if it doubled whatever movement you had left, in this case turning the remaining 30ft into 60ft. That's not how Dash works.
The difference between and precise operation of the terms "Movement" and "Speed" is unfortunately fuzzy, in part because 5E doesn't actually have a "move action," despite most players kind of still leaning on that concept from prior editions (Chapter 9 even slips up and calls it "Your Move"). In past systems you have "a move action" that is a certain distance, and even if you can break up that "move action" with other actions, it mad sense as a concept to have it be worth 30 feet, and use an Action or a Bonus Action to "do it again" for another 30 feet. Further confusing it is that "speed" can be a reference to either the speed attribute, or the speed pool derived from that attribute each round (not so much as capitalization to help keep the two straight!), and the resource is also sometimes referred to as "movement" (see e.g. jumping or Dash).
In Combat, Moving is accomplished using a fuzzy pool of "speed" (resource), the total of which is based upon your speed attribute. "On your turn, you can move a distance up to your speed. You can use as much or as little of your speed as you like on your turn, following the rules here" and "Every character and monster has a speed, which is the distance in feet that the character or monster can walk in 1 round."
Outside of Combat or other "life threatening situations," your Speed value is irrelevant, and all characters simply travel at the same rate based on the "pace" that they are setting. Let's just ignore that.... forever...
Your speed attribute might change, either as a result of a class feature (e.g. Monk's Unarmored Movement adds +10-30 ft), or a spell (e.g. Haste doubles the value). Changing the attribute mid-turn in Combat immediately impacts the resource, as can be seen from letting Fly drop mid-turn).
You may have multiple of these fuzzy speed resource pools, if you have multiple speed attributes, and they interact (see below). However, two of these speed attriubtes (Climb and Swim) work in an odd way by letting you do something you already can do with a regular speed attribute, but without incurring additional movement penalties. Does this create a situation where a creature with Walk 60/Swim 30 can actually Swim 45 feet in one round (see below)? Not clear!!!
The resource pools are connected, because moving some distance using any one of them also expends points from every other pool "whenever you switch". Is "the distance you've already moved" = "the speed resource value you've expended"? (see e.g. a creature with Walk 30/Fly 30 walking through difficult terrain for 15 feet... able to fly?).
Other things that aren't moving, like standing from Prone or escaping a Wurm's swallow, seem to affect all resource pools simultaneously... because otherwise they effect none of them, because standing isn't actually moving distance with any specific movement modality, it's just a special ability that spends speed resource without moving.
Effects which alter the speed resource pool might work in a couple of different ways, by either making you spend out of them faster (crawling, swimming, and climbing "costs 1 extra foot" per foot moved), or by spending flat amounts of movement (20 feet to escape a Wurm swallow, amount equal to half your Speed value(s) to stand from Prone), or by reducing the pool directly (pushing or dragging drops your speed to 5 feet), or by re-adding your speed attribute into your speed resource pool again (e.g. Dash).
All of this is very complicated, and doesn't always actually function in the way that your brain takes shortcuts to suggest.
The difference between and precise operation of the terms "Movement" and "Speed" is unfortunately fuzzy, in part because 5E doesn't actually have a "move action," despite most players kind of still leaning on that concept from prior editions (Chapter 9 even slips up and calls it "Your Move"). In past systems you have "a move action" that is a certain distance, and even if you can break up that "move action" with other actions, it mad sense as a concept to have it be worth 30 feet, and use an Action or a Bonus Action to "do it again" for another 30 feet. Further confusing it is that "speed" can be a reference to either the speed attribute, or the speed pool derived from that attribute each round (not so much as capitalization to help keep the two straight!), and the resource is also sometimes referred to as "movement" (see e.g. jumping or Dash).
In Combat, Moving is accomplished using a fuzzy pool of "speed" (resource), the total of which is based upon your speed attribute. "On your turn, you can move a distance up to your speed. You can use as much or as little of your speed as you like on your turn, following the rules here" and "Every character and monster has a speed, which is the distance in feet that the character or monster can walk in 1 round."
Outside of Combat or other "life threatening situations," your Speed value is irrelevant, and all characters simply travel at the same rate based on the "pace" that they are setting. Let's just ignore that.... forever...
Your speed attribute might change, either as a result of a class feature (e.g. Monk's Unarmored Movement adds +10-30 ft), or a spell (e.g. Haste doubles the value). Changing the attribute mid-turn in Combat immediately impacts the resource, as can be seen from letting Fly drop mid-turn).
You may have multiple of these fuzzy speed resource pools, if you have multiple speed attributes, and they interact (see below). However, two of these speed attriubtes (Climb and Swim) work in an odd way by letting you do something you already can do with a regular speed attribute, but without incurring additional movement penalties. Does this create a situation where a creature with Walk 60/Swim 30 can actually Swim 45 feet in one round (see below)? Not clear!!!
The resource pools are connected, because moving some distance using any one of them also expends points from every other pool "whenever you switch". Is "the distance you've already moved" = "the speed resource value you've expended"? (see e.g. a creature with Walk 30/Fly 30 walking through difficult terrain for 15 feet... able to fly?).
Other things that aren't moving, like standing from Prone or escaping a Wurm's swallow, seem to affect all resource pools simultaneously... because otherwise they effect none of them, because standing isn't actually moving distance with any specific movement modality, it's just a special ability that spends speed resource without moving.
Effects which alter the speed resource pool might work in a couple of different ways, by either making you spend out of them faster (crawling, swimming, and climbing "costs 1 extra foot" per foot moved), or by spending flat amounts of movement (20 feet to escape a Wurm swallow, amount equal to half your Speed value(s) to stand from Prone), or by reducing the pool directly (pushing or dragging drops your speed to 5 feet), or by re-adding your speed attribute into your speed resource pool again (e.g. Dash).
All of this is very complicated, and doesn't always actually function in the way that your brain takes shortcuts to suggest.
Wow...Thank you for taking the time to write that all out. I'm starting to get a better idea of where I went wrong by misinterpret from the players and DMG and getting a clearer picture of how I should have managed my OP questions.
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I ran into two situations in my last gaming session I want to get the hive-mind opinions on how they were ruled.
Character: 3rd Level Monk with 40 feet movement.
Question 1:
On the Monk turn
Action: Takes the Dash action to 80 feet movement.
Bonus Action: Spend's 1 Ki point for 'Step of the Wind' to Dash for an additional 80 feet of movement.
Total Move Distance 160 feet.
My take away was this was NOT a valid turn because your Dash distance is based on the character's existing movement to Dash again as a bonus action has no movement distance left to perform that action. I'm using the Combat chapter under the Movement and Position section for the basis of my rules.
Question 2:
The monk is engaged with two Lizardfolk
On the Monk turn
Action: Takes the Disengage action to moves away from the engaged Lizardfolk to prevent Attack Of Opportunities.
Once the Monk was out of the Lizardfolk reach 10 feet.
Bonus Action: Spend's 1 Ki point for 'Step of the Wind' to Dash for the remaining 30 feet of movement for 60 feet.
My take away was this IS A VALID turn since there was still preexisting movement left to dash after preforming the Disengage action. The fact that he Disengaged and then Dash is not a problem to perform.
Question 1:
The monk's base movement is 40. Using the dash action adds another 40. Using the bonus action step of the wind to dash again adds 40' more for a total of 120' of movement with no other actions except a free object interaction possible.
Question 2:
It was a valid action but you are misinterpreting dash. It does not give you movement equal to your remaining movement on a turn. It gives you movement equal to your base movement.
----
"DASH
When you take the Dash action, you gain extra movement for the current turn. The increase equals your speed, after applying any modifiers. With a speed of 30 feet, for example, you can move up to 60 feet on your turn if you dash. Any increase or decrease to your speed changes this
additional movement by the same amount. If your speed of 30 feet is reduced to 15 feet, for instance, you can move up to 30 feet this turn if you dash."
Your speed is your base movement rate. i.e. in this case for the monk it is 40' base. If the monk was slowed then the their movement rate would be halved. If they were hasted it would be doubled. This is what the text is referring to as your speed after applying modifiers. How far you have moved on a given turn is not a modifier. Your speed is not how much you have left to move on a turn ... your speed is the distance you CAN move at the start of the turn and the speed is only reduced or increased by outside effects not by moving.
Some examples from the PHB that make this clearer:
"On your turn, you can move a distance up to your speed. You can use as much or as little of your speed as you like on your turn, following the rules here."
"You can break up your movement on your turn, using some of your speed before and after your action. For example, if you have a speed of 30 feet, you can move 10 feet, take your action, and then move 20 feet."
However ...
I can see where your confusion is coming from since the PHB clearly refers to reducing speed as a character expends movement.
"However you're moving, you deduct the distance of each part of your move from your speed until it is used up or until you are done moving."
Most people I know interpret this as accounting for how far you have moved. Your "speed" remains what it was at the start of the turn but your remaining movement is your speed less how far you have moved.
"However you're moving, you deduct the distance of each part of your move from your speed until it is used up or until you are done moving."
Yeah, that is where I was basing my thought and looking at the "Using Different Speeds" lumping it into that movement rule.
Using Different Speeds
If you have more than one speed, such as your walking speed and a flying speed, you can switch back and forth between your speeds during your move. Whenever you switch, subtract the distance you've already moved from the new speed. The result determines how much farther you can move. If the result is 0 or less, you can't use the new speed during the current move.
For example, if you have a speed of 30 and a flying speed of 60 because a wizard cast the fly spell on you, you could fly 20 feet, then walk 10 feet, and then leap into the air to fly 30 feet more.
But I guess since the movement is still a Dash the same time of movement I should remove that thinking from applying the distance allowed.
Yes, the different movement ranges is only for combining walk, fly, swim, climb speed with one another.
As far as speed being reduced/increased goes, we are talking about difficult terrain, we are talking about the movement penalty of Ray of Frost. Also, a monks Unarmored Movement bonus, etc.
In the second example, the Monk could have used all 40 ft of movement to disengage AND used Step of the Wind to Dash 40 ft.
Just a little argument insurance below snipped from the SA.
If you have a feature like Cunning Action or Step of the Wind, can you take the Dash action more than once on your turn?
If you can take the Dash action as a bonus action, nothing in the rules prevents you from taking the Dash action with your regular action too. The same principle holds when you use a feature like Action Surge; you could use both of your actions to take the Dash action.
I think the wording in your questions is the problem.
The Monk used 40 ft in movement, then he dashed for 40 ft of movement, THEN he used Step of the Wind for 40 ft of movement. He didn't Dash for 80 ft and then use Step of the Wind.
Yup, that's it. Dash is basically just saying you can use your regular movement twice.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Question 1: Think of your movement speed as a resource to be spent. Normally you spend 1ft of your movement speed to travel 1ft. Difficult terrain requires you to spend more to move the same amount(usually double, though sometimes more). Dash basically gives you another allotment of that resource equal to your default amount. So if your default walking speed is 40ft, then any time you Dash you get another 40ft of movement to play with. If you can Dash multiple times on a turn(such as a Monk with Step Of The Wind, a Rogue with Cunning Action, a Fighter with Action Surge, or anyone under the effect of a Haste spell), each Dash gets you another 40ft. Multiple Dash actions are additive, not multiplicative.
Question 2: If it's the same Monk, they have 40ft of movement. So, they use their Action to Disengage. They move 10ft. They still have 30ft of movement remaining. If they use Step Of The Wind to Dash as a bonus action, that gives them an additional 40ft of movement, so they now have a total of 70ft of movement available to them on this turn. You treated Dash as if it doubled whatever movement you had left, in this case turning the remaining 30ft into 60ft. That's not how Dash works.
Thanks for clarifying my misunderstanding of Dash I really appreciate you taking the time to provide the feedback.
The difference between and precise operation of the terms "Movement" and "Speed" is unfortunately fuzzy, in part because 5E doesn't actually have a "move action," despite most players kind of still leaning on that concept from prior editions (Chapter 9 even slips up and calls it "Your Move"). In past systems you have "a move action" that is a certain distance, and even if you can break up that "move action" with other actions, it mad sense as a concept to have it be worth 30 feet, and use an Action or a Bonus Action to "do it again" for another 30 feet. Further confusing it is that "speed" can be a reference to either the speed attribute, or the speed pool derived from that attribute each round (not so much as capitalization to help keep the two straight!), and the resource is also sometimes referred to as "movement" (see e.g. jumping or Dash).
All of this is very complicated, and doesn't always actually function in the way that your brain takes shortcuts to suggest.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Wow...Thank you for taking the time to write that all out. I'm starting to get a better idea of where I went wrong by misinterpret from the players and DMG and getting a clearer picture of how I should have managed my OP questions.