since rolling a critical hit doubles the number of damage dice rolled, how do i determine if the spell will jump or not? is it enough for two of the d8's to show the same value or must all the d8's show the same value for it to work, or is it just not possible at all?
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
As the spells rule text says "if you roll the same number on both d8", it is most likely meant to be the original 2d8 without the additional 2d8 crit damage. Same for determining the damage type, single out the one d8 for the damage type and the other d8 for jumping, then add 2 additional d8.
The actual rule is to roll the original 2d8 and choose types and determine ricochets from those, chaos bolt is already somewhat lackluster compared to the likes of chromatic orb so we've always played with rolling all the dice on a crit to choose types and any pair makes a ricochet.
The actual rule is to roll the original 2d8 and choose types and determine ricochets from those, chaos bolt is already somewhat lackluster compared to the likes of chromatic orb so we've always played with rolling all the dice on a crit to choose types and any pair makes a ricochet.
Chromatic Orb deals avg 1 damage higher per level of the spell (+Chromatic Orb)
Chromatic Orb allows you to choose the damage type from a limited set, Chaos Bolt is random, but has a larger set of damage types (+Chromatic Orb if you like control)
Chromatic Orb has a material component with a 50gp cost, so you cannot cast it with an arcane focus., and it is unlikely that a starting player will be able to supply the component. Chaos Bolt is a V/S spell, so no component (or focus) required (+Chaos Bolt, especially at lower levels)
Chaos Bolt has a 12.5% chance of hitting another target and increasing new rolled damage, which theoretically could trigger additional leaps (+Chaos Bolt)
Its a more random spell, but I don't think its underpowered. Relating to the original question, I would determine type and jumping from the original d8 pair, not the crit dice.
The actual rule is to roll the original 2d8 and choose types and determine ricochets from those, chaos bolt is already somewhat lackluster compared to the likes of chromatic orb so we've always played with rolling all the dice on a crit to choose types and any pair makes a ricochet.
Agreed with this. It's neither RAW nor RAI, but come on the spell's called CHAOS Bolt. Worst that happened at our table using this interpretation was the sorcerer (who is a Luck Vampire IRL) got to blow up three owlbears with a single cast of Chaos Bolt which crtitted on both the first two targets.
You're only taking the jump chance from 12.5% to 14.8% - it's not going to break the game and is a lot of fun for the player when it does go off. And as the only sorcerer-unique spell, (get thee behind me, MTG backgrounds) it should probably do a little more than a cross-class spell does.
The actual rule is to roll the original 2d8 and choose types and determine ricochets from those, chaos bolt is already somewhat lackluster compared to the likes of chromatic orb so we've always played with rolling all the dice on a crit to choose types and any pair makes a ricochet.
Agreed with this. It's neither RAW nor RAI, but come on the spell's called CHAOS Bolt. Worst that happened at our table using this interpretation was the sorcerer (who is a Luck Vampire IRL) got to blow up three owlbears with a single cast of Chaos Bolt which crtitted on both the first two targets.
You're only taking the jump chance from 12.5% to 14.8% - it's not going to break the game and is a lot of fun for the player when it does go off. And as the only sorcerer-unique spell, (get thee behind me, MTG backgrounds) it should probably do a little more than a cross-class spell does.
It's a much bigger increase in chance than that, if I'm not screwing up the probabilities, it's about a 60% chance of chaining on a crit if you take any pair.
As for being lackluster, I suppose it's more personal preference. The overall damage is similar and there's not much practical difference (without feats) between VS and VSM if you can't use a focus since you need a free hand either way. The price is high for a starting character, but that changes quickly. The biggest difference IMO, is that despite being the only(?) sorcerer-only spell, chaos bolt can't be twinned.
The actual rule is to roll the original 2d8 and choose types and determine ricochets from those, chaos bolt is already somewhat lackluster compared to the likes of chromatic orb so we've always played with rolling all the dice on a crit to choose types and any pair makes a ricochet.
Agreed with this. It's neither RAW nor RAI, but come on the spell's called CHAOS Bolt. Worst that happened at our table using this interpretation was the sorcerer (who is a Luck Vampire IRL) got to blow up three owlbears with a single cast of Chaos Bolt which crtitted on both the first two targets.
You're only taking the jump chance from 12.5% to 14.8% - it's not going to break the game and is a lot of fun for the player when it does go off. And as the only sorcerer-unique spell, (get thee behind me, MTG backgrounds) it should probably do a little more than a cross-class spell does.
**** it, if we are gonna homebrew critting this shit we might as well go all in: if ether three of the d8's show the same value or you get two pairs after a critical hit, the spell branches off to two new targets intead of just one new target, let the madness continue further
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
The actual rule is to roll the original 2d8 and choose types and determine ricochets from those, chaos bolt is already somewhat lackluster compared to the likes of chromatic orb so we've always played with rolling all the dice on a crit to choose types and any pair makes a ricochet.
Agreed with this. It's neither RAW nor RAI, but come on the spell's called CHAOS Bolt. Worst that happened at our table using this interpretation was the sorcerer (who is a Luck Vampire IRL) got to blow up three owlbears with a single cast of Chaos Bolt which crtitted on both the first two targets.
You're only taking the jump chance from 12.5% to 14.8% - it's not going to break the game and is a lot of fun for the player when it does go off. And as the only sorcerer-unique spell, (get thee behind me, MTG backgrounds) it should probably do a little more than a cross-class spell does.
It's a much bigger increase in chance than that, if I'm not screwing up the probabilities, it's about a 60% chance of chaining on a crit if you take any pair.
As for being lackluster, I suppose it's more personal preference. The overall damage is similar and there's not much practical difference (without feats) between VS and VSM if you can't use a focus since you need a free hand either way. The price is high for a starting character, but that changes quickly. The biggest difference IMO, is that despite being the only(?) sorcerer-only spell, chaos bolt can't be twinned.
60% on a guaranteed crit, sure, but I was calculating the overall jump chance (assuming a hit) which is ((19/20 * 0.125) + (1/20 * 0.59)) ~= 0.148.
You can crit whenever you roll a d20 attack roll, which increases the chances of critting on Chaos bolt.
Chromatic Orb: 3d8 averages 13.5 damage, with a 1/20 chance of doing average 27.
Chaos bolt, only original damage can jump on a crit, all damage is the same type, but only upto 30 ft and only if there is another target in the area. Assuming these conditions are met:
Chaos Bolt: 2d8+1d6 = 12.5 damage with a 1/20 chance of doing 25, PLUS [a 1/8 chance of doing an additional 12.5 with a 1/20 chance of doing 25] repeated infinitely. Effective damage average of 14.28, doubled to 28.5 on a crit.
That alone means it does on average about .75 more damage, although you give up some minor advantages (choosing the damage type, etc.)
The key limiting factor is the 30 ft range for the jump. Eventually you will run out of targets - immediately if there is only one target in range.
This is what I would do, not allowing the crit die to jump. Mainly because if you allow the crit dies to cause jumps, you have to decide HOW TO DO THAT:
If you allow crits to also increase the chance of jumping, there are several ways to do it:
You get two different types of damage attacking the first target, each separately has a 1/8 chance of jumping, for a 25% total chance of getting at least 1 jump, and a 1/64 chance of getting 2 jumps (less likely than case 3 below)
First d8 out of 4 is the damage determinant, can only jump ONCE even if all 4d8 are identical, matches to the first die are the only one that cause a jump. Most logical. Now you have 3 attempts, rather than 1 attempt, to hit the target to jump. Jump chance is now a bit over 33%, rather than 12.5%.
First d8 out of 4 is the damage determinant, can jump multiple times if more than 1 of the 3 extra dice matches it. Now you have 3 attempts, rather than 1 attempt, to hit the target to jump. Jump chance is now a bit over 33%, rather than 12.5%, but about 4.5% of the time you get two or even 3 jumps.
First d8 out of 4 is the damage determinant, can only jump once even if all 4d8 are identical, matches to the ANY die cause a jump. Here a chance of jumping on a crit is 59%.
First d8 out of 4 is the damage determinant, can jump upto 3 times if all four die are identical. Here a chance of jumping on a crit is 59%, but damage can be astronomical.
All of these make the spell much more powerful, but honestly the mere fact that the spell does not say which of these options is valid implies that none are. Crits do not increase the chance of a jump.
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since rolling a critical hit doubles the number of damage dice rolled, how do i determine if the spell will jump or not? is it enough for two of the d8's to show the same value or must all the d8's show the same value for it to work, or is it just not possible at all?
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
As the spells rule text says "if you roll the same number on both d8", it is most likely meant to be the original 2d8 without the additional 2d8 crit damage. Same for determining the damage type, single out the one d8 for the damage type and the other d8 for jumping, then add 2 additional d8.
Yep, extra dice from a critical hit are distinct from the base dice from the attack. This is supported by Jeremy Crawford
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/12/10/jump-to-another-target-what-happens-when-someone-rolls-a-critical-hit-on-chaos-bolt/
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
The actual rule is to roll the original 2d8 and choose types and determine ricochets from those, chaos bolt is already somewhat lackluster compared to the likes of chromatic orb so we've always played with rolling all the dice on a crit to choose types and any pair makes a ricochet.
I don't really see the lackluster in chaos bolt. Compared to chromatic orb:
Its a more random spell, but I don't think its underpowered. Relating to the original question, I would determine type and jumping from the original d8 pair, not the crit dice.
Agreed with this. It's neither RAW nor RAI, but come on the spell's called CHAOS Bolt. Worst that happened at our table using this interpretation was the sorcerer (who is a Luck Vampire IRL) got to blow up three owlbears with a single cast of Chaos Bolt which crtitted on both the first two targets.
You're only taking the jump chance from 12.5% to 14.8% - it's not going to break the game and is a lot of fun for the player when it does go off. And as the only sorcerer-unique spell, (get thee behind me, MTG backgrounds) it should probably do a little more than a cross-class spell does.
It's a much bigger increase in chance than that, if I'm not screwing up the probabilities, it's about a 60% chance of chaining on a crit if you take any pair.
As for being lackluster, I suppose it's more personal preference. The overall damage is similar and there's not much practical difference (without feats) between VS and VSM if you can't use a focus since you need a free hand either way. The price is high for a starting character, but that changes quickly. The biggest difference IMO, is that despite being the only(?) sorcerer-only spell, chaos bolt can't be twinned.
**** it, if we are gonna homebrew critting this shit we might as well go all in: if ether three of the d8's show the same value or you get two pairs after a critical hit, the spell branches off to two new targets intead of just one new target, let the madness continue further
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
60% on a guaranteed crit, sure, but I was calculating the overall jump chance (assuming a hit) which is ((19/20 * 0.125) + (1/20 * 0.59)) ~= 0.148.
You can crit whenever you roll a d20 attack roll, which increases the chances of critting on Chaos bolt.
Chromatic Orb: 3d8 averages 13.5 damage, with a 1/20 chance of doing average 27.
Chaos bolt, only original damage can jump on a crit, all damage is the same type, but only upto 30 ft and only if there is another target in the area. Assuming these conditions are met:
Chaos Bolt: 2d8+1d6 = 12.5 damage with a 1/20 chance of doing 25, PLUS [a 1/8 chance of doing an additional 12.5 with a 1/20 chance of doing 25] repeated infinitely. Effective damage average of 14.28, doubled to 28.5 on a crit.
That alone means it does on average about .75 more damage, although you give up some minor advantages (choosing the damage type, etc.)
The key limiting factor is the 30 ft range for the jump. Eventually you will run out of targets - immediately if there is only one target in range.
This is what I would do, not allowing the crit die to jump. Mainly because if you allow the crit dies to cause jumps, you have to decide HOW TO DO THAT:
If you allow crits to also increase the chance of jumping, there are several ways to do it:
All of these make the spell much more powerful, but honestly the mere fact that the spell does not say which of these options is valid implies that none are. Crits do not increase the chance of a jump.