First off, to recap the spell description for those who might need to reference it:
Shape Water: Cantrip, 1Action, Instantaneous (certain effects last for up to 1 hour)
You choose an area of water that you can see within range and that fits within a 5-foot cube. You manipulate it in one of the following ways:
You instantaneously move or otherwise change the flow of the water as you direct, up to 5 feet in any direction. This movement doesn’t have enough force to cause damage.
You cause the water to form into simple shapes and animate at your direction. This change lasts for 1 hour.
You change the water’s color or opacity. The water must be changed in the same way throughout. This change lasts for 1 hour.
You freeze the water, provided that there are no creatures in it. The water unfreezes in 1 hour.
If you cast this spell multiple times, you can have no more than two of its non-instantaneous effects active at a time, and you can dismiss such an effect as an action.
My questions particularly concerns the movement and animation of the targeted water:
1 - Can water which you "animate at your discretion" be used to interact with objects similarly to Mage Hand or Unseen Servant? Perhaps while frozen (2 non-instant effects)?
2 - If so, how much force could this exert? (10lb or less, similar to mage hand, seems reasonable for lifting, but weight could affect the downward pull.)
3 - Is animated water restricted to the same 5ft distance limitation as when you "instantaneously move or otherwise change the flow of the water", or is the process of animation enough to propel it at greater speeds?
4 - When moving or changing the flow of water in any direction, does this mean that you could effectively force the water to fly 5ft up off the ground?
5 - If the former is true, would the water fall at the end of your turn (I would think so), or hover there until the beginning of your next turn, potentially letting you keep it airborne, or even giving it virtual flight (using your action to maintain)?
I would say no. You can only use it to form simple shapes so your control over the water isn't going to be good enough to form a hand and move each of the fingers. That's quite a complex object. You could maybe make it pick up objects that float by moving the water in a blob underneath it and lifting it up. I would also say you can't animate the water while it's frozen because it's now a solid.
I don't know - but not a lot. Honestly if your intention is to pick things up with it - get Mage Hand and flavour it to look like water.
I wouldn't say it's limited like the changing flow direction is - but I would definitely say it's limited to the 30ft range of the spell.
Yes. It specifically says any direction and doesn't say you can't choose up.
Technically it's an instantaneous spell so it would begin falling again immediately. Most things fall at 60ft 500ft per round. So beginning of your next turn it will already have fallen back.
Technically it's an instantaneous spell so it would begin falling again immediately. Most things fall at 60ft per round. So beginning of your next turn it will already have fallen back.
Just want to point out that in the core rules, falling is assumed to be instantaneous from any height. In XgtE it expands on this, stating that most things fall at a rate of 500 feet per round. The spell Feather Fall slows the falling rate to 60 feet per round.
Emmber and Jaysburn, thank you both for your responses. A couple more thoughts, though:
1 - I agree that the most complex thing you could make would be a tentacle-like pseudopod, but that might still be enough to open a door or pick up an object, which is what I was thinking.
As for the frozen and animated, these are two listed non-instant effects, which the spell specifically states can be active at the same time, so I'd have to disagree on that part (specific overrides general, and often common sense as well in the case of magic). Besides, in a game where you can animate a brick (Tiny Servant [lvl3] gives it legs while Animate Objects [lvl5] permits it to either inchworm/roll or outright fly), I don't really see how making a clumsily animated block of ice (or slush, if that's your preference) is really game breaking. This is just a really weak construct that cannot take actions on it's own.
2 - I was considering having both Mage Hand and Shape Water for this very reason. I'd really prefer to just use Shape water, even if it is clumsier (no chance of stealthiness with 10 gallons of icy water sloshing about) as I prefer the flavor, but I expect that there will be table variance.
3 - It sounds like the 30ft range of the spell is the limitation, which I can understand. This is not unlike most other utility cantrips, and is honestly fairly generous.
4 - Fair enough. I've seen no disagreement on this from any source, but thought it was worth asking, especially given my final question.
5 - As expected, given that both the movement and falling are described as instantaneous. I do understand Jaysburn to be correct as to the distance fallen each round (500ft, slowed to 60ft if under the effects of Feather Fall). I hardly expected flight, but someone on another thread had suggested that it might be possible, so I thought I'd ask to be sure.
First off, to recap the spell description for those who might need to reference it:
Shape Water: Cantrip, 1Action, Instantaneous (certain effects last for up to 1 hour)
You choose an area of water that you can see within range and that fits within a 5-foot cube. You manipulate it in one of the following ways:
You instantaneously move or otherwise change the flow of the water as you direct, up to 5 feet in any direction. This movement doesn’t have enough force to cause damage.
You cause the water to form into simple shapes and animate at your direction. This change lasts for 1 hour.
You change the water’s color or opacity. The water must be changed in the same way throughout. This change lasts for 1 hour.
You freeze the water, provided that there are no creatures in it. The water unfreezes in 1 hour.
If you cast this spell multiple times, you can have no more than two of its non-instantaneous effects active at a time, and you can dismiss such an effect as an action.
My questions particularly concerns the movement and animation of the targeted water:
1 - Can water which you "animate at your discretion" be used to interact with objects similarly to Mage Hand or Unseen Servant? Perhaps while frozen (2 non-instant effects)?
2 - If so, how much force could this exert? (10lb or less, similar to mage hand, seems reasonable for lifting, but weight could affect the downward pull.)
3 - Is animated water restricted to the same 5ft distance limitation as when you "instantaneously move or otherwise change the flow of the water", or is the process of animation enough to propel it at greater speeds?
4 - When moving or changing the flow of water in any direction, does this mean that you could effectively force the water to fly 5ft up off the ground?
5 - If the former is true, would the water fall at the end of your turn (I would think so), or hover there until the beginning of your next turn, potentially letting you keep it airborne, or even giving it virtual flight (using your action to maintain)?
No. Shape Water does not have that function. Full stop.
None.
Yes, 5ft restriction. For all intents and purposes, there is no alteration of kinematic properties (I know this is where you're going) of the water.
Yes. You can direct the flow of water upwards by 5 feet.
The water falls immediately. You can change the flow of water, not the world around the water. Even if the water was stagnant, what you would be doing is creating a flow. If you're directing water upwards 5 feet, the flow of water travels upward 5 feet. The particles would travel upwards 5 feet, and immediately start descending again. You've made a fountain.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
The creative cantrips are all generally about doing the same creative things. Not a lot of balance problems with being permissive and flexible re: what the water can do, so long as you’re within the handful of constraints it lays out and don’t try to weaponize it. I recommend you read it permissively (~ you can generally magically manipulate small amounts of water, so long as....) instead of restrictively (~ you CANT do anything with water, except for these very specific things...). Otherwise, you put them in the awkward position of not really being useful to role playing, unless the character makes build sacrifices to proliferate their cantrip selection with other largely redundant spells.
The creative cantrips are all generally about doing the same creative things. Not a lot of balance problems with being permissive and flexible re: what the water can do, so long as you’re within the handful of constraints it lays out and don’t try to weaponize it. I recommend you read it permissively (~ you can generally magically manipulate small amounts of water, so long as....) instead of restrictively (~ you CANT do anything with water, except for these very specific things...). Otherwise, you put them in the awkward position of not really being useful to role playing, unless the character makes build sacrifices to proliferate their cantrip selection with other largely redundant spells.
LOL, wut? It's a cantrip... a very good one even. Shape Water has even been the key to successfully completing a bunch of one-shot adventures I've done.
Spells should be read restrictively, and FFS you're the one that's always saying "spells do what the text says they do, and nothing more".
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Yeah, fair enough, I just feel like if a player is a sorcerer that has taken Gust, Shape Water, Control Flames, or Move Earth (maybe even all four?)... at that point they’ve sufficiently demonstrated to me their qualifications as “master of elements,” able to do hand-waivy cantrip role play things, so I’m not going to be like “yes, well, Mage Hand more specifically describes manipulating objects than Shape Water, so unless you take THAT, sorry, no using a tendril of water to move stuff!”
RAW, yes, spells do what they say they do. But from a DM perspective, the intent of these spells is to give players ways to demonstrate their magical chops outside of combat, and telling them “yeah, even if you take this, I’m gonna be looking for ways to say ‘no’” just leads to them being skipped over in favor of combat cantrips.
Shape Water is one of my favorites. As a DM, I also like creative uses for spells, but this isn't the DM's subforum. :-)
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Well I don't think you can use it as a mage hand. But it could be possible to make a rope? That can be pretty useful. The closest you can get to a mage hand is maybe a simple pincer-type grabber, since the main flaw with using it as mage hand is controlling the individual fingers
Well I don't think you can use it as a mage hand. But it could be possible to make a rope? That can be pretty useful. The closest you can get to a mage hand is maybe a simple pincer-type grabber, since the main flaw with using it as mage hand is controlling the individual fingers
You cause the water to form into simple shapes and animate at your direction. This change lasts for 1 hour.
It all depends on your DM's interpretation of "simple". They might take it as far down as the kinds of prism shapes a toddler shoves through close fitting spaces such as a cylinder or maybe something as complicated as a pyramid. they might also allow a hodgepodge of those shapes cludged together. A rope is arguably just a curvy cylinder, so as long as you're not wanting detail like the individual strands then I think you could ask for a noodle like, curvy cylinder. IF you wanted it "knotted" then you might get smooth spherical shapes at regular intervals.
What would you want to do with a water rope? Keep in mind the definition of water is a liquid. The moment you turn it into solid ice you can't manipulate it beyond unfreezing the ice you have frozen. However, if you're looking to make it rope shape and thread it through something in the same space, I think the note you can "animate" it is enough to cover that. If you wanted to tie someone up with it, rather than freeze it directly around them (thus getting past the note you can't freeze water with creatures in it) that might be allowed by a generous DM but I doubt the DC to break free would be higher than 10 (and probably set as low as 5 for most).
Try this Guide to Shape Water which does an excellent analysis on the cantrip. Although it's worth remembering that Magic does not equal physics, so I can easily imagine a DM ruling out some of the physics related properties such as water expanding when it's frozen.
i have to ask if can make an opaque 2-inch thick, 1-foot wide disc of opaque water (which weighs about 10 lbs) (maybe shaped like a simple mask of a face), and mage hand it to hover in front of someone to distract them? how would ya'll rule on that?
I would first ask what your goal is with this set up. Because this is a lot of time investment into something that would be trivial to avoid or overcome.
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First off, to recap the spell description for those who might need to reference it:
Shape Water: Cantrip, 1Action, Instantaneous (certain effects last for up to 1 hour)
You choose an area of water that you can see within range and that fits within a 5-foot cube. You manipulate it in one of the following ways:
You instantaneously move or otherwise change the flow of the water as you direct, up to 5 feet in any direction. This movement doesn’t have enough force to cause damage.
You cause the water to form into simple shapes and animate at your direction. This change lasts for 1 hour.
You change the water’s color or opacity. The water must be changed in the same way throughout. This change lasts for 1 hour.
You freeze the water, provided that there are no creatures in it. The water unfreezes in 1 hour.
If you cast this spell multiple times, you can have no more than two of its non-instantaneous effects active at a time, and you can dismiss such an effect as an action.
My questions particularly concerns the movement and animation of the targeted water:
1 - Can water which you "animate at your discretion" be used to interact with objects similarly to Mage Hand or Unseen Servant? Perhaps while frozen (2 non-instant effects)?
2 - If so, how much force could this exert? (10lb or less, similar to mage hand, seems reasonable for lifting, but weight could affect the downward pull.)
3 - Is animated water restricted to the same 5ft distance limitation as when you "instantaneously move or otherwise change the flow of the water", or is the process of animation enough to propel it at greater speeds?
4 - When moving or changing the flow of water in any direction, does this mean that you could effectively force the water to fly 5ft up off the ground?
5 - If the former is true, would the water fall at the end of your turn (I would think so), or hover there until the beginning of your next turn, potentially letting you keep it airborne, or even giving it virtual flight (using your action to maintain)?
60ft500ft per round. So beginning of your next turn it will already have fallen back.Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
Just want to point out that in the core rules, falling is assumed to be instantaneous from any height. In XgtE it expands on this, stating that most things fall at a rate of 500 feet per round. The spell Feather Fall slows the falling rate to 60 feet per round.
I did think 60 feet per round sounded too low when I wrote it.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
Emmber and Jaysburn, thank you both for your responses. A couple more thoughts, though:
1 - I agree that the most complex thing you could make would be a tentacle-like pseudopod, but that might still be enough to open a door or pick up an object, which is what I was thinking.
As for the frozen and animated, these are two listed non-instant effects, which the spell specifically states can be active at the same time, so I'd have to disagree on that part (specific overrides general, and often common sense as well in the case of magic). Besides, in a game where you can animate a brick (Tiny Servant [lvl3] gives it legs while Animate Objects [lvl5] permits it to either inchworm/roll or outright fly), I don't really see how making a clumsily animated block of ice (or slush, if that's your preference) is really game breaking. This is just a really weak construct that cannot take actions on it's own.
2 - I was considering having both Mage Hand and Shape Water for this very reason. I'd really prefer to just use Shape water, even if it is clumsier (no chance of stealthiness with 10 gallons of icy water sloshing about) as I prefer the flavor, but I expect that there will be table variance.
3 - It sounds like the 30ft range of the spell is the limitation, which I can understand. This is not unlike most other utility cantrips, and is honestly fairly generous.
4 - Fair enough. I've seen no disagreement on this from any source, but thought it was worth asking, especially given my final question.
5 - As expected, given that both the movement and falling are described as instantaneous. I do understand Jaysburn to be correct as to the distance fallen each round (500ft, slowed to 60ft if under the effects of Feather Fall). I hardly expected flight, but someone on another thread had suggested that it might be possible, so I thought I'd ask to be sure.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
The creative cantrips are all generally about doing the same creative things. Not a lot of balance problems with being permissive and flexible re: what the water can do, so long as you’re within the handful of constraints it lays out and don’t try to weaponize it. I recommend you read it permissively (~ you can generally magically manipulate small amounts of water, so long as....) instead of restrictively (~ you CANT do anything with water, except for these very specific things...). Otherwise, you put them in the awkward position of not really being useful to role playing, unless the character makes build sacrifices to proliferate their cantrip selection with other largely redundant spells.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
LOL, wut? It's a cantrip... a very good one even. Shape Water has even been the key to successfully completing a bunch of one-shot adventures I've done.
Spells should be read restrictively, and FFS you're the one that's always saying "spells do what the text says they do, and nothing more".
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Yeah, fair enough, I just feel like if a player is a sorcerer that has taken Gust, Shape Water, Control Flames, or Move Earth (maybe even all four?)... at that point they’ve sufficiently demonstrated to me their qualifications as “master of elements,” able to do hand-waivy cantrip role play things, so I’m not going to be like “yes, well, Mage Hand more specifically describes manipulating objects than Shape Water, so unless you take THAT, sorry, no using a tendril of water to move stuff!”
RAW, yes, spells do what they say they do. But from a DM perspective, the intent of these spells is to give players ways to demonstrate their magical chops outside of combat, and telling them “yeah, even if you take this, I’m gonna be looking for ways to say ‘no’” just leads to them being skipped over in favor of combat cantrips.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Shape Water is one of my favorites. As a DM, I also like creative uses for spells, but this isn't the DM's subforum. :-)
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Well I don't think you can use it as a mage hand. But it could be possible to make a rope? That can be pretty useful. The closest you can get to a mage hand is maybe a simple pincer-type grabber, since the main flaw with using it as mage hand is controlling the individual fingers
You cause the water to form into simple shapes and animate at your direction. This change lasts for 1 hour.
It all depends on your DM's interpretation of "simple". They might take it as far down as the kinds of prism shapes a toddler shoves through close fitting spaces such as a cylinder or maybe something as complicated as a pyramid. they might also allow a hodgepodge of those shapes cludged together. A rope is arguably just a curvy cylinder, so as long as you're not wanting detail like the individual strands then I think you could ask for a noodle like, curvy cylinder. IF you wanted it "knotted" then you might get smooth spherical shapes at regular intervals.
What would you want to do with a water rope? Keep in mind the definition of water is a liquid. The moment you turn it into solid ice you can't manipulate it beyond unfreezing the ice you have frozen. However, if you're looking to make it rope shape and thread it through something in the same space, I think the note you can "animate" it is enough to cover that. If you wanted to tie someone up with it, rather than freeze it directly around them (thus getting past the note you can't freeze water with creatures in it) that might be allowed by a generous DM but I doubt the DC to break free would be higher than 10 (and probably set as low as 5 for most).
Try this Guide to Shape Water which does an excellent analysis on the cantrip. Although it's worth remembering that Magic does not equal physics, so I can easily imagine a DM ruling out some of the physics related properties such as water expanding when it's frozen.
i have to ask if can make an opaque 2-inch thick, 1-foot wide disc of opaque water (which weighs about 10 lbs) (maybe shaped like a simple mask of a face), and mage hand it to hover in front of someone to distract them? how would ya'll rule on that?
I would first ask what your goal is with this set up. Because this is a lot of time investment into something that would be trivial to avoid or overcome.