Let us say that somebody i cast friends on / one who is being targeted by friends is about to cast a spell of 4th level or higher and i use a spell slot of 3rd level to cast counterspell, and let's say my casting abillity for counterspell happens to be charisma. Will i now have advantage on my charisma check to counteract the spell of my enemy? Is my counterspell check not in this instance directed at the chosen creature? Shure the chances of this happening by accident are pretty low and the chances of this working out by you manufacturing these circumstances without it backfiring pretty bad are also slim, but is it not neat that it can happen?
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
You can't cast friends on someone who is hostile towards you so the situation I think you are describing would never arise.
Yeah i already know it is highly improbable for this to arise for that reason and other similar factors, i just Think its neat that this spell could be used for such an unorthadox thing.
(Besides maybe you want to pretend to ally yourself with somebody and cast this right as combat starts with your arcane focus, then Only reveal your true alegiance once you cast counterspell for the first time, not worth getting this cantrip for that, or for any other reason, but there is some edge case scenario where this helps somewhat)
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Theoretically, a caster with advantage on their casting ability for any reason could use that advantage on the check in Counterspell since it appears to be a standard check by any other means (which also means a wild mage could use tides of chaos on it). So this would work, but as said by others this particular instance (paired with friends) would be highly unlikely to ever happen due to the limitations on hostile casting.
Checks "directed at" a creature from Friends is a fuzzy concept, because skill checks don't have defined targeting rules like spells do.
Counterspell is certainly targeting a creature, not the spell that the creature is casting (because "a spell" is not a creature, object, or point as defined in Chapter 10). Presumably, the check involved in a spell which has targeted a creature is also directed at that creature, so yes, I would give advantage on a Charisma-based Counterspell targeting a creature that you (somehow) have under the effects of Friends.
As I mentioned before, it isn't an unlikely occurrence, it is an impossible occurrence. If someone is hostile towards you then you cannot cast friends on them. If someone is deliberately casting an offensive spell on you that you want to counter - then they are by definition - hostile towards you. The original poster even asked if he would have advantage over his ENEMY - so clearly the target would be counted as hostile. The friends cantrip therefore is irrelevant.
The spell description says "For the duration, you have advantage on all Charisma checks directed at one creature of your choice that isn’t hostile toward you." Clearly stating you only have advantage on the check if the target is not hostile toward you - You have angered him into casting a 4th level spell against you - clearly he is feeling a little hostile.
You don't have to be hostile with a creature to cast counterspell on them. A creature doesn't have to be hostile with you to be casting a spell. You don't have to be hostile with a creature (yet) to conceivably want to stop them from casting a spell. Would countering another's spell be considered a hostile action? Probably depends on the spell and the context.
You don't have to be hostile with a creature to cast counterspell on them. A creature doesn't have to be hostile with you to be casting a spell. You don't have to be hostile with a creature (yet) to conceivably want to stop them from casting a spell. Would countering another's spell be considered a hostile action? Probably depends on the spell and the context.
The spell description for friends says it doesn't work if the person you are interacting with is hostile to you, so the situation implied is unlikely as you would probably not be in a situation to counterspell something from a non-hostile creature.
Let us say that somebody i cast friends on / one who is being targeted by friends is about to cast a spell of 4th level or higher and i use a spell slot of 3rd level to cast counterspell, and let's say my casting abillity for counterspell happens to be charisma. Will i now have advantage on my charisma check to counteract the spell of my enemy? Is my counterspell check not in this instance directed at the chosen creature? Sure the chances of this happening by accident are pretty low and the chances of this working out by you manufacturing these circumstances without it backfiring pretty bad are also slim, but is it not neat that it can happen?
You don't have to be hostile with a creature to cast counterspell on them. A creature doesn't have to be hostile with you to be casting a spell. You don't have to be hostile with a creature (yet) to conceivably want to stop them from casting a spell. Would countering another's spell be considered a hostile action? Probably depends on the spell and the context.
The spell description for friends says it doesn't work if the person you are interacting with is hostile to you, so the situation implied is unlikely as you would probably not be in a situation to counterspell something from a non-hostile creature.
Woosh.
Artifice found a neat niche setup for Friends, a spell which is frequently subjected to "when is this ever useful?!" threads. The setup works. Enough said, well spotted Artifice.
I already said in my post in #4 that I believed it was technically feasible, just highly unlikely to happen as "friendly counterspelling" is something highly unlikely to ever happen. I don't appreciate the snark dude, its not really called for.
A spellcasting duel, like in Harry Potter, is not a hostile combat situation.
It might be a tight fit in a 1 minute window, but pre-duel applications of makeup could fly as being in-character in-universe, and at the end of the duel you can already expect the opposing target to be really angry (hostile) at you for cheating. I mean, I'd be pretty annoyed if I faced someone who Counterspelled me all the time so bystanders might not even bat an eye at the sudden hostility (unless they know the Friends spell themselves and/or make an Arcana check).
A spellcasting duel, like in Harry Potter, is not a hostile combat situation.
It might be a tight fit in a 1 minute window, but pre-duel applications of makeup could fly as being in-character in-universe, and at the end of the duel you can already expect the opposing target to be really angry (hostile) at you for cheating. I mean, I'd be pretty annoyed if I faced someone who Counterspelled me all the time so bystanders might not even bat an eye at the sudden hostility (unless they know the Friends spell themselves and/or make an Arcana check).
the makeup has no specified cost, so you can absolutely use your wand instead of makeup and do it like seconds before the duel starts, making it even more useful, most wizard duels end up just being somebody using counterspell, and then the counterspelled fellow using counterspell on the counterspell in what becomes an infinite bog of nonsense
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
If you are having a magical duel - then you are hostile to each other - you are opponents. If it is a gentle competition between actual friends - then why would you cast the friends cantrip on someone you were already friends with when you know that you will be actual enemies when the minute is up? This is just pointless theory crafting, just for the sake of it to try and find something that you could possibly exploit about the spell. The reality is that it will not happen in a game. If you are friends with someone and have cast the friends cantrip on them so you are besties for a minute, (pointlessly ruining a friendship and getting an enemy in the process) they won't be casting a hostile spell on you for you to need to use counterspell. If they did cast a spell on you the reality is that it would be a beneficial one that you have used the friends cantrip to help talk them into casting it, so you wouldn't want to counter it anyway. The only way I can possibly see this as working is if you need to antagonise someone, so you use friends to talk them into casting a spell on you, then you counterspell it, then they become hostile and attack you and you can claim to be the innocent party because you have witnesses to say they saw the other person try to attack you and you killed them in self defence. You might get away with that maybe once.
If you are having a magical duel - then you are hostile to each other - you are opponents. If it is a gentle competition between actual friends - then why would you cast the friends cantrip on someone you were already friends with when you know that you will be actual enemies when the minute is up? This is just pointless theory crafting, just for the sake of it to try and find something that you could possibly exploit about the spell. The reality is that it will not happen in a game. If you are friends with someone and have cast the friends cantrip on them so you are besties for a minute, (pointlessly ruining a friendship and getting an enemy in the process) they won't be casting a hostile spell on you for you to need to use counterspell. If they did cast a spell on you the reality is that it would be a beneficial one that you have used the friends cantrip to help talk them into casting it, so you wouldn't want to counter it anyway. The only way I can possibly see this as working is if you need to antagonise someone, so you use friends to talk them into casting a spell on you, then you counterspell it, then they become hostile and attack you and you can claim to be the innocent party because you have witnesses to say they saw the other person try to attack you and you killed them in self defence. You might get away with that maybe once.
...all of this is just so wrong on so many levels
1 if the Duel is in some kind of tournament, there is an high chance my opponent and i have never met, i want to win the Duel but i have no particular ill will towards them, i wish them no harm, i dont want them dead, i dont want to ruin their career
2 if i am friends with my opponent, besties even, and we have a Duel of peers with no hard feelings involved, that does not mean my opponent Will try to cast longstrider, enlarge or healing word, they would still be using Magic missile (nonlerthal damage), sleep, reduce, hold person etc, spells that would win them the Duel even if winning is not the point, i would still want
3 like i Said this is not the Only time this could be useful. Say in the campaign the BBEG is an evil wizard or lich or something. Then your character could pretend to join this evil fellow's side, become his "ally" for a while Only for you to reveal your true intentions once the party reaches this foul villain. Up until you cast your first counterspell, he could have no idea that you are working against him, and once your true loyalties are revealed and the lich becomes your enemy, the spell will still be in effect, friends does not end once the enemy is hostile, it ends when you loose concentration or when the duration runs out, for the rest of the fight all the counterspell checks you make would have advantage
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
If you are having a magical duel - then you are hostile to each other - you are opponents. If it is a gentle competition between actual friends - then why would you cast the friends cantrip on someone you were already friends with when you know that you will be actual enemies when the minute is up? This is just pointless theory crafting, just for the sake of it to try and find something that you could possibly exploit about the spell. The reality is that it will not happen in a game. If you are friends with someone and have cast the friends cantrip on them so you are besties for a minute, (pointlessly ruining a friendship and getting an enemy in the process) they won't be casting a hostile spell on you for you to need to use counterspell. If they did cast a spell on you the reality is that it would be a beneficial one that you have used the friends cantrip to help talk them into casting it, so you wouldn't want to counter it anyway. The only way I can possibly see this as working is if you need to antagonise someone, so you use friends to talk them into casting a spell on you, then you counterspell it, then they become hostile and attack you and you can claim to be the innocent party because you have witnesses to say they saw the other person try to attack you and you killed them in self defence. You might get away with that maybe once.
...all of this is just so wrong on so many levels
1 if the Duel is in some kind of tournament, there is an high chance my opponent and i have never met, i want to win the Duel but i have no particular ill will towards them, i wish them no harm, i dont want them dead, i dont want to ruin their career
2 if i am friends with my opponent, besties even, and we have a Duel of peers with no hard feelings involved, that does not mean my opponent Will try to cast longstrider, enlarge or healing word, they would still be using Magic missile (nonlerthal damage), sleep, reduce, hold person etc, spells that would win them the Duel even if winning is not the point, i would still want
3 like i Said this is not the Only time this could be useful. Say in the campaign the BBEG is an evil wizard or lich or something. Then your character could pretend to join this evil fellow's side, become his "ally" for a while Only for you to reveal your true intentions once the party reaches this foul villain. Up until you cast your first counterspell, he could have no idea that you are working against him, and once your true loyalties are revealed and the lich becomes your enemy, the spell will still be in effect, friends does not end once the enemy is hostile, it ends when you loose concentration or when the duration runs out, for the rest of the fight all the counterspell checks you make would have advantage
On #1 and #2, “hostile” does not necessarily mean malevolent...they are opposing you, so they can, by definition, be hostile regardless of intent. Also, just because you don’t feel ill-disposed to them doesn’t mean they don’t feel ill -disposed to you. At my table, in both of those instances I would consider your opponent to be hostile to you in that moment
On #3, what you say would be possible, but you would have to know in advance of what they’re doing enough to cast friends before they begin casting their spell, within one minute, or else you’ve wasted your attempt and blown your cover. So the usefulness would 1) be tied to foreknowledge of the enemy’s action, 2) require the enemy not be hostile to you, and 3) require you to beat the enemy on initiative to be able to cast Friends first (because if you try to ready it, you won’t have a reaction for counterspell)
Shaking hands before the match seems like a good opportunity? No emotional hostilities yet, not in combat where "hostile" should be defined formally as "in combat against one another", seems like a crafty trick to pull while touching gloves.
Anyhoo, a creative player might find plenty of different opportunities to try this. It's enough to know that in theory it's possibly useful.
I used Counterspell recently against my party member. I polymorphed an NPC in to a sheep to be petty (he deserved it) but she (being a LG Paladin disagreed) and decided to dispel it. I counterspelled her dispel. Then she dispelled it again and I counterspelled it again. Neither of us were hostile to each other during or after. It is definitely not impossible that a situation could arise where Friends and Counterspell are happening together.
Let us say that somebody i cast friends on / one who is being targeted by friends is about to cast a spell of 4th level or higher and i use a spell slot of 3rd level to cast counterspell, and let's say my casting abillity for counterspell happens to be charisma. Will i now have advantage on my charisma check to counteract the spell of my enemy? Is my counterspell check not in this instance directed at the chosen creature? Shure the chances of this happening by accident are pretty low and the chances of this working out by you manufacturing these circumstances without it backfiring pretty bad are also slim, but is it not neat that it can happen?
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
You can't cast friends on someone who is hostile towards you so the situation I think you are describing would never arise.
Yeah i already know it is highly improbable for this to arise for that reason and other similar factors, i just Think its neat that this spell could be used for such an unorthadox thing.
(Besides maybe you want to pretend to ally yourself with somebody and cast this right as combat starts with your arcane focus, then Only reveal your true alegiance once you cast counterspell for the first time, not worth getting this cantrip for that, or for any other reason, but there is some edge case scenario where this helps somewhat)
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Theoretically, a caster with advantage on their casting ability for any reason could use that advantage on the check in Counterspell since it appears to be a standard check by any other means (which also means a wild mage could use tides of chaos on it). So this would work, but as said by others this particular instance (paired with friends) would be highly unlikely to ever happen due to the limitations on hostile casting.
Checks "directed at" a creature from Friends is a fuzzy concept, because skill checks don't have defined targeting rules like spells do.
Counterspell is certainly targeting a creature, not the spell that the creature is casting (because "a spell" is not a creature, object, or point as defined in Chapter 10). Presumably, the check involved in a spell which has targeted a creature is also directed at that creature, so yes, I would give advantage on a Charisma-based Counterspell targeting a creature that you (somehow) have under the effects of Friends.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
As I mentioned before, it isn't an unlikely occurrence, it is an impossible occurrence. If someone is hostile towards you then you cannot cast friends on them. If someone is deliberately casting an offensive spell on you that you want to counter - then they are by definition - hostile towards you. The original poster even asked if he would have advantage over his ENEMY - so clearly the target would be counted as hostile. The friends cantrip therefore is irrelevant.
The spell description says "For the duration, you have advantage on all Charisma checks directed at one creature of your choice that isn’t hostile toward you." Clearly stating you only have advantage on the check if the target is not hostile toward you - You have angered him into casting a 4th level spell against you - clearly he is feeling a little hostile.
You don't have to be hostile with a creature to cast counterspell on them. A creature doesn't have to be hostile with you to be casting a spell. You don't have to be hostile with a creature (yet) to conceivably want to stop them from casting a spell. Would countering another's spell be considered a hostile action? Probably depends on the spell and the context.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
The spell description for friends says it doesn't work if the person you are interacting with is hostile to you, so the situation implied is unlikely as you would probably not be in a situation to counterspell something from a non-hostile creature.
vs.
Woosh.
Artifice found a neat niche setup for Friends, a spell which is frequently subjected to "when is this ever useful?!" threads. The setup works. Enough said, well spotted Artifice.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I already said in my post in #4 that I believed it was technically feasible, just highly unlikely to happen as "friendly counterspelling" is something highly unlikely to ever happen. I don't appreciate the snark dude, its not really called for.
A spellcasting duel, like in Harry Potter, is not a hostile combat situation.
It might be a tight fit in a 1 minute window, but pre-duel applications of makeup could fly as being in-character in-universe, and at the end of the duel you can already expect the opposing target to be really angry (hostile) at you for cheating. I mean, I'd be pretty annoyed if I faced someone who Counterspelled me all the time so bystanders might not even bat an eye at the sudden hostility (unless they know the Friends spell themselves and/or make an Arcana check).
I am one with the Force. The Force is with me.
the makeup has no specified cost, so you can absolutely use your wand instead of makeup and do it like seconds before the duel starts, making it even more useful, most wizard duels end up just being somebody using counterspell, and then the counterspelled fellow using counterspell on the counterspell in what becomes an infinite bog of nonsense
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
If you are having a magical duel - then you are hostile to each other - you are opponents. If it is a gentle competition between actual friends - then why would you cast the friends cantrip on someone you were already friends with when you know that you will be actual enemies when the minute is up? This is just pointless theory crafting, just for the sake of it to try and find something that you could possibly exploit about the spell. The reality is that it will not happen in a game. If you are friends with someone and have cast the friends cantrip on them so you are besties for a minute, (pointlessly ruining a friendship and getting an enemy in the process) they won't be casting a hostile spell on you for you to need to use counterspell. If they did cast a spell on you the reality is that it would be a beneficial one that you have used the friends cantrip to help talk them into casting it, so you wouldn't want to counter it anyway. The only way I can possibly see this as working is if you need to antagonise someone, so you use friends to talk them into casting a spell on you, then you counterspell it, then they become hostile and attack you and you can claim to be the innocent party because you have witnesses to say they saw the other person try to attack you and you killed them in self defence. You might get away with that maybe once.
...all of this is just so wrong on so many levels
1 if the Duel is in some kind of tournament, there is an high chance my opponent and i have never met, i want to win the Duel but i have no particular ill will towards them, i wish them no harm, i dont want them dead, i dont want to ruin their career
2 if i am friends with my opponent, besties even, and we have a Duel of peers with no hard feelings involved, that does not mean my opponent Will try to cast longstrider, enlarge or healing word, they would still be using Magic missile (nonlerthal damage), sleep, reduce, hold person etc, spells that would win them the Duel even if winning is not the point, i would still want
3 like i Said this is not the Only time this could be useful. Say in the campaign the BBEG is an evil wizard or lich or something. Then your character could pretend to join this evil fellow's side, become his "ally" for a while Only for you to reveal your true intentions once the party reaches this foul villain. Up until you cast your first counterspell, he could have no idea that you are working against him, and once your true loyalties are revealed and the lich becomes your enemy, the spell will still be in effect, friends does not end once the enemy is hostile, it ends when you loose concentration or when the duration runs out, for the rest of the fight all the counterspell checks you make would have advantage
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
On #1 and #2, “hostile” does not necessarily mean malevolent...they are opposing you, so they can, by definition, be hostile regardless of intent. Also, just because you don’t feel ill-disposed to them doesn’t mean they don’t feel ill -disposed to you. At my table, in both of those instances I would consider your opponent to be hostile to you in that moment
On #3, what you say would be possible, but you would have to know in advance of what they’re doing enough to cast friends before they begin casting their spell, within one minute, or else you’ve wasted your attempt and blown your cover. So the usefulness would 1) be tied to foreknowledge of the enemy’s action, 2) require the enemy not be hostile to you, and 3) require you to beat the enemy on initiative to be able to cast Friends first (because if you try to ready it, you won’t have a reaction for counterspell)
Shaking hands before the match seems like a good opportunity? No emotional hostilities yet, not in combat where "hostile" should be defined formally as "in combat against one another", seems like a crafty trick to pull while touching gloves.
Anyhoo, a creative player might find plenty of different opportunities to try this. It's enough to know that in theory it's possibly useful.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I used Counterspell recently against my party member. I polymorphed an NPC in to a sheep to be petty (he deserved it) but she (being a LG Paladin disagreed) and decided to dispel it. I counterspelled her dispel. Then she dispelled it again and I counterspelled it again. Neither of us were hostile to each other during or after. It is definitely not impossible that a situation could arise where Friends and Counterspell are happening together.