Jay, I agree that Sage Advice brings little to the table as far as being "the rule." But it does demonstrate that reasonable minds are differing on whether "the attack" is the [feature/ability/action] that makes the rolls, or the rolls themselves. I just don't think there's written PHB text that is going to clear that up either way.
And again, the math (as easily manipulated as it is) shows, a Sharpshooter-Elven Accuracy-Hidden Hunter with Volley does decent damage if all the attacks are made with advantage instead of just the first one, but it certainly isn't game-breaking. A ranged Fighter with Sharpshooter and Elven Accuracy at that level would do as much or more by being able to make a consistent 4 attacks per round (or even 8 with Action Surge), against multiple or single targets, not just when the DM clumps them. The Hunter will do more damage with an all-advantage-Volley than he will with an advantage-on-only-the-first-roll-Volley, but the Hunter won't necessarily do more damage than other Bow users or ranged attack users, so its not like this is presenting some sort of looming danger to the balance of the game?
No, that’s actually wrong - the math shows that a hide-and-volley ranger will so far more damage than a Fighter at level 13-19. It’s usable every round, not like Action Surge that is limited to 1-2 per short rest.
And the math doesn’t lie - it does if all you use is cherry picked attack rolls and don’t consider the hit chances. Using only damage rolls, that Fighter with three attacks will NOT do as much damage as a Ranger attacking 2 targets at advantage every single round. And if there’s ever 3 targets, the Fighter falls WAY behind.
3 attacks at 60% chance to hit, is 1.8 hits per round. 2 attacks at 96%, is 1.9 hits per round. Only when Fighter hits level 20 does it draw closer, and we haven’t even discussed magic *at all*.
Too many assumptions to really be able to present reliable math on how much damage a volley hunter does... how many enemies? Even HP pools? Standing in tidy clumps? Content to chip away at all of them evenly instead of bursting one down? Somewhere to hide every round? No one in your face? No cover for the enemies? It’s not that there aren’t scenarios you can build where volley is awesome, it’s that there are lots of common scenarios where it ISNT. It’s awful niche for a tier 4 build, and I don’t see it significantly outpacing even other ranger builds.
Too many assumptions to really be able to present reliable math on how much damage a volley hunter does... how many enemies? Even HP pools? Standing in tidy clumps? Content to chip away at all of them evenly instead of bursting one down? Somewhere to hide every round? No one in your face? No cover for the enemies? It’s not that there aren’t scenarios you can build where volley is awesome, it’s that there are lots of common scenarios where it ISNT. It’s awful niche for a tier 4 build, and I don’t see it significantly outpacing even other ranger builds.
To add on to your statement, if you make them count ammunition (and you should) Volley still uses one arrow per target...so there’s a limit on the number of uses without retrieving arrows, making them, or purchasing them.
Also, a fireball in the same place would do more damage
Does it give all attack advantage in the turn or just the 1st one? For example, a hunter attack from hiding with Horde Breaker and extra attack. Do all three attacks have an advantage?
Only the first attack whether it hits or not. It would not apply to the other attacks as you would no longer be hidden RAW.
We got that part sort out. The current question is "How about Volly?"
Take a look at Whirlwind Attack. In Sage Advice, it says that it is a single attack with multiple attack rolls so a ranger can't move between the attack rolls of the Whirlwind Attack. However, it also means all attack rolls have an advantage if the ranger attack from hidden.
Now the question is "is Volly the same as Whirlwind Attack?"
If Volly is a single range attack with multiple attack rolls, then it is the same as the Whirlwind Attack. Then the ranger can't move in between each attack roll and all attack rolls have an advantage when attacking from hidden.
If Volly is multiple range attacks with multiple attack rolls, then it is not the same as the Whirlwind Attack. Then the ranger can move in between each attack roll but only the first attack roll have an advantage when attacking from hidden.
We got that part sort out. The current question is "How about Volly?"
Take a look at Whirlwind Attack. In Sage Advice, it says that it is a single attack with multiple attack rolls so a ranger can't move between the attack rolls of the Whirlwind Attack. However, it also means all attack rolls have an advantage if the ranger attack from hidden.
Now the question is "is Volly the same as Whirlwind Attack?"
If Volly is a single range attack with multiple attack rolls, then it is the same as the Whirlwind Attack. Then the ranger can't move in between each attack roll and all attack rolls have an advantage when attacking from hidden.
If Volly is multiple range attacks with multiple attack rolls, then it is not the same as the Whirlwind Attack. Then the ranger can move in between each attack roll but only the first attack roll have an advantage when attacking from hidden.
They are paired melee and ranged versions of the “multi attack” ability and use the exact same wording, except where Volley adds language for ammunition and range that is applicable to ranged (and not to melee), so I would argue they are the same mechanically and count as a single attack RAI
I see Extra attack as “legolas shoots one arrow after another really fast” and Volley as “Legolas fires 3 arrows at once at different targets standing close together”. This fits with the common English definition of the ability’s name and to me, means All of the attack rolls from a Volley have advantage if fired from hiding
I have a build specifically built around using volley and stealth, but instead of using Champion as previously suggested I use Samurai. Consider the following:
Minimum 3 levels Fighter for Samurai, granting access to fighting spirit and action surge
The hitch, each arrow of volley needs to be supplied so you'll need to pack A LOT of ammo. This can be fixed by finding a magic longbow that creates it's own ammo when none is supplied (EG Dragon Longbow), OR minimum 2 levels Artificer for repeating shot infusion which also makes a basic longbow a +1 bow.
In my build I stay at the 2 levels Artificer, take fighter to 6 for extra ASI, and Ranger to 12 for one more ASI.
Now for the fun
A turn using volley would go as such.
Bonus action fighting spirit, temp HP and advantage on all weapon attacks made that turn.
Action: Volley, can target up to 16 medium creatures of they are stupid enough to be that clumped together. For fun let's assume they are
That's 16 attacks all made with advantage. If you picked up Elven Accuracy, that's "triple advantage". 42 d20 rolls total
Action surge, do it again if you wish. For a new total of 84 d20 rolls (your party and DM will hate you)
From there you have 2 more uses of fighting spirit to grant advantage again. TCoE gives rangers the ability to turn invisible until the start of their next turn as a BONUS action PB/day. Since it lasts until the beginning of next turn, it's not dropped when an attack is made, granting 6 more rounds of advantage on volley. After that you basically rely on stealth or situational advantage
This build isn't necessarily broken, or even usable. Rarely ever will you have enough enemies grouped together to make volley worth more than simply extra attacking. Plus all the rolls will bog down game progression, and it's a high level build which not many games make it to. Fun in concept though, I hope to play it some day
The Ranger could do with having some buffs they are one of the most underpowered classes in DnD. A fight can fight better than any ranger, a druid or cleric out spell cast them, and if you're going for a combat 1/2 caster again fight does it better with Eldritch Knight, and Paladin is even better again. Rangers in 5e is kinda trash from a pure mechanics/power point of view... but it does have some cool RP stuff, however, so do the other classes mentioned that are mechanically way better picks. Letting a ranger use hide advantage on all of their Volley attacks would give them a well-deserved power spike IMO.
DnD is not about being a rules lawyer in fact the 5e goes out of its way to encourage DM's and players alike to create homebrew ways that make the game more fun for all involved. So it is completely fine, if not encouraged, to actually talk about 'what-if' It's what makes the Pen and Paper RP games like DnD so much fun, you can tweak them as your roleplay group see fit and DnD Beyond is a great online platform to discuss them with other people, don't be trying to stifle peoples creativity and imagination - they are what make roleplay what it is.
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No, that’s actually wrong - the math shows that a hide-and-volley ranger will so far more damage than a Fighter at level 13-19. It’s usable every round, not like Action Surge that is limited to 1-2 per short rest.
And the math doesn’t lie - it does if all you use is cherry picked attack rolls and don’t consider the hit chances. Using only damage rolls, that Fighter with three attacks will NOT do as much damage as a Ranger attacking 2 targets at advantage every single round. And if there’s ever 3 targets, the Fighter falls WAY behind.
3 attacks at 60% chance to hit, is 1.8 hits per round. 2 attacks at 96%, is 1.9 hits per round. Only when Fighter hits level 20 does it draw closer, and we haven’t even discussed magic *at all*.
Too many assumptions to really be able to present reliable math on how much damage a volley hunter does... how many enemies? Even HP pools? Standing in tidy clumps? Content to chip away at all of them evenly instead of bursting one down? Somewhere to hide every round? No one in your face? No cover for the enemies? It’s not that there aren’t scenarios you can build where volley is awesome, it’s that there are lots of common scenarios where it ISNT. It’s awful niche for a tier 4 build, and I don’t see it significantly outpacing even other ranger builds.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
To add on to your statement, if you make them count ammunition (and you should) Volley still uses one arrow per target...so there’s a limit on the number of uses without retrieving arrows, making them, or purchasing them.
Also, a fireball in the same place would do more damage
Only the first attack whether it hits or not. It would not apply to the other attacks as you would no longer be hidden RAW.
We got that part sort out. The current question is "How about Volly?"
Take a look at Whirlwind Attack. In Sage Advice, it says that it is a single attack with multiple attack rolls so a ranger can't move between the attack rolls of the Whirlwind Attack. However, it also means all attack rolls have an advantage if the ranger attack from hidden.
Now the question is "is Volly the same as Whirlwind Attack?"
If Volly is a single range attack with multiple attack rolls, then it is the same as the Whirlwind Attack. Then the ranger can't move in between each attack roll and all attack rolls have an advantage when attacking from hidden.
If Volly is multiple range attacks with multiple attack rolls, then it is not the same as the Whirlwind Attack. Then the ranger can move in between each attack roll but only the first attack roll have an advantage when attacking from hidden.
They are paired melee and ranged versions of the “multi attack” ability and use the exact same wording, except where Volley adds language for ammunition and range that is applicable to ranged (and not to melee), so I would argue they are the same mechanically and count as a single attack RAI
I see Extra attack as “legolas shoots one arrow after another really fast” and Volley as “Legolas fires 3 arrows at once at different targets standing close together”. This fits with the common English definition of the ability’s name and to me, means All of the attack rolls from a Volley have advantage if fired from hiding
I have a build specifically built around using volley and stealth, but instead of using Champion as previously suggested I use Samurai. Consider the following:
Minimum 11 levels Ranger, obviously choose volley.
Minimum 3 levels Fighter for Samurai, granting access to fighting spirit and action surge
The hitch, each arrow of volley needs to be supplied so you'll need to pack A LOT of ammo. This can be fixed by finding a magic longbow that creates it's own ammo when none is supplied (EG Dragon Longbow), OR minimum 2 levels Artificer for repeating shot infusion which also makes a basic longbow a +1 bow.
In my build I stay at the 2 levels Artificer, take fighter to 6 for extra ASI, and Ranger to 12 for one more ASI.
Now for the fun
A turn using volley would go as such.
Bonus action fighting spirit, temp HP and advantage on all weapon attacks made that turn.
Action: Volley, can target up to 16 medium creatures of they are stupid enough to be that clumped together. For fun let's assume they are
That's 16 attacks all made with advantage. If you picked up Elven Accuracy, that's "triple advantage". 42 d20 rolls total
Action surge, do it again if you wish. For a new total of 84 d20 rolls (your party and DM will hate you)
From there you have 2 more uses of fighting spirit to grant advantage again. TCoE gives rangers the ability to turn invisible until the start of their next turn as a BONUS action PB/day. Since it lasts until the beginning of next turn, it's not dropped when an attack is made, granting 6 more rounds of advantage on volley. After that you basically rely on stealth or situational advantage
This build isn't necessarily broken, or even usable. Rarely ever will you have enough enemies grouped together to make volley worth more than simply extra attacking. Plus all the rolls will bog down game progression, and it's a high level build which not many games make it to. Fun in concept though, I hope to play it some day
The Ranger could do with having some buffs they are one of the most underpowered classes in DnD. A fight can fight better than any ranger, a druid or cleric out spell cast them, and if you're going for a combat 1/2 caster again fight does it better with Eldritch Knight, and Paladin is even better again. Rangers in 5e is kinda trash from a pure mechanics/power point of view... but it does have some cool RP stuff, however, so do the other classes mentioned that are mechanically way better picks. Letting a ranger use hide advantage on all of their Volley attacks would give them a well-deserved power spike IMO.
DnD is not about being a rules lawyer in fact the 5e goes out of its way to encourage DM's and players alike to create homebrew ways that make the game more fun for all involved. So it is completely fine, if not encouraged, to actually talk about 'what-if' It's what makes the Pen and Paper RP games like DnD so much fun, you can tweak them as your roleplay group see fit and DnD Beyond is a great online platform to discuss them with other people, don't be trying to stifle peoples creativity and imagination - they are what make roleplay what it is.