So I was just messing around with one of my characters, a Lvl 12 Wood Elf Barbarian, and I was looking at the rules for jumping. With a running start, you can jump up a number of feet equal to 3 + your Str mod. Well, she has a +4 in strength. What's more, is that the distance you can reach when high jumping is equal to the height of the jump plus 1.5 times your height. With a full, 7 foot jump, this elf woman can reach 15 feet in the air. Jumping is wack in D&D.
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A lich beholder could and would fight God. I desperately want to make it fight my players instead.
The current world record high jump is 8 ft, 1/2 inch. Admittedly, it's with a different technique than a straight "jump and reach," but hey, these are epic heroes! They can be a bit superhuman.
... I take it you're complaining that that's too high? You're a fantasy elf who's people often live in treetops and you have ridiculous athletics abilities, of course you can make amazing jumps.
So I was just messing around with one of my characters, a Lvl 12 Wood Elf Barbarian, and I was looking at the rules for jumping. With a running start, you can jump up a number of feet equal to 3 + your Str mod. Well, she has a +4 in strength. What's more, is that the distance you can reach when high jumping is equal to the height of the jump plus 1.5 times your height. With a full, 7 foot jump, this elf woman can reach 15 feet in the air. Jumping is wack in D&D.
And that's a problem, why exactly? It's not even unrealistic, as it's been noted that real-life athletes have exceeded that distance.
If you don't have a running start, you can only jump 3.5 feet vertically. I can clear that.
While I think you do correctly understand how jumping rules work, I just want to clarify what the components mean. The 7 foot vertical jump (with running start) is the maximum elevation change from the surface plane to the lowest point on your body (typically your feet). The 1.5 times creature height signifies full vertical extension of arms in the direction of the jump. This is added to the height of the jump itself to indicate the maximum reachable height. You don't jump 15 feet from the surface plane (that's still 7 feet); you can reach 15 feet from the surface plane (extension of appendages). I.e., when you make a 7 foot vertical running jump, you can grab something that's up to 15 feet above the surface plane.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
It’s whack, if you think of it as a simulation, because hulking unwieldy creatures like golems, bulls, bears, etc can jump better than graceful creatures like panthers, gazelles, etc...
... but 5E isn’t and doesn’t try to be a simulation. Jump distance keyed off strength is one of the saving graces that stops it from being a total dump stat for most classes. Dexterity already has much going for it for everyone, as does constitution, so poor old strength needs SOMETHING going for it. Athletics, carry weight, and jump speed are Strength’s saving grace.
By RAW, yes, the Jump Mechanism (and Grappling, to name another) are insanely broken. If you play a RAW table, you are stuck with the rules. If your DM alters the rules in session 0, to something more reasonable, more power to the DM.
How exactly is jumping "insanely broken"? Seriously, nobody has presented an argument for what they think is actually wrong with the rule & interaction. Do you think creatures are jumping too high/far? Too low/short? Something else? Please tell us what you think is wrong.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
How exactly is jumping "insanely broken"? Seriously, nobody has presented an argument for what they think is actually wrong with the rule & interaction. Do you think creatures are jumping too high/far? Too low/short? Something else? Please tell us what you think is wrong.
An optimized jumper can do stupid video game dragoon tricks, jumping 60+ feet into the air or 10-20' multiple times to perform multiple suplexes per round (since jumping doesn't require an action) on a grappled creature. The only thing that isn't airtight RAW about one's ability to do so is whether the jumper themself would also take fall damage from these crazy jumps, so DM fiat ends up being the main limitation on building a dragoon.
But is that "broken"? It's a fantasy game, with fantasy tropes, and it's a very very very specialized build that doesn't really do anything else well other than grappling and jumping with a single Tiny-Large enemy within their carrying capacity. Pretty limited. Most characters are going to be jumping 3-8 feet up if they really run for it, or 1-4 feet standing. What in the game system does that break? It's not even particularly unrealistic compared against real-world fitness enthusiasts, much less against fantasy heroes and magical monsters?
An optimized jumper can do stupid video game dragoon tricks, jumping 60+ feet into the air or 10-20' multiple times to perform multiple suplexes per round (since jumping doesn't require an action) on a grappled creature. The only thing that isn't airtight RAW about one's ability to do so is whether the jumper themself would also take fall damage from these crazy jumps, so DM fiat ends up being the main limitation on building a dragoon.
But is that "broken"? It's a fantasy game, with fantasy tropes, and it's a very very very specialized build that doesn't really do anything else well other than grappling and jumping with a single Tiny-Large enemy within their carrying capacity. Pretty limited. Most characters are going to be jumping 3-8 feet up if they really run for it, or 1-4 feet standing. What in the game system does that break? It's not even particularly unrealistic compared against real-world fitness enthusiasts, much less against fantasy heroes and magical monsters?
I was playing in one game, where the 6'3" Barbarian leaped into the air with weapon in one hand, trying to Grapple a Large Dragon flying 18 feet overhead. 1st attempt at Grapple missed, 2nd time worked. Then, he dragged the Dragon to the ground, holding with a single hand. (Speed = 0 for Grappled Creature). After that, when I ran my own table, in session 0 I presented my table with printed docs on Jumping, Grappling, Falling, among others.
Was what the Barbarian within RAW? Yes. Was it ridiculous, even within a fantasy setting? Also yes.
I was playing in one game, where the 6'3" Barbarian leaped into the air with weapon in one hand, trying to Grapple a Large Dragon flying 18 feet overhead. 1st attempt at Grapple missed, 2nd time worked. Then, he dragged the Dragon to the ground, holding with a single hand. (Speed = 0 for Grappled Creature). After that, when I ran my own table, in session 0 I presented my table with printed docs on Jumping, Grappling, Falling, among others.
Was what the Barbarian within RAW? Yes. Was it ridiculous, even within a fantasy setting? Also yes.
That sounds super awesome and fun. Why do you want to suck the joy out of this game? WHY?!
Just checked. Black and Green Young Dragons have a STR score of 19... so a raging Barbarian grappling them would definetely reduce their ability to fly straight.
I will also note that a 6' tall creature (reach of 9' high) would need to jump 9 feet off the ground to reach a dragon 18' in the air, which would require at least 22 strength to do.
Doesn't sound like that was ruled right. Unless it was a Totem Warrior(Tiger) barbarian, in which case... that's kinda what their whole thing is.
I will also note that a 6' tall creature (reach of 9' high) would need to jump 9 feet off the ground to reach a dragon 18' in the air, which would require at least 22 strength to do.
Doesn't sound like that was ruled right. Unless it was a Totem Warrior(Tiger) barbarian, in which case... that's kinda what their whole thing is.
It would also require the Barbarian to have moved 10 feet to qualify for the "running jump", and that would've concluded with the first jumping grapple attempt. Unless they "took a lap" for each jump attempt, that second jump would have been limited to 4.5 feet vertical with a max reach of 13.5 feet.
Vince_Snetterton, it sounds like your table may have simply not followed the actual rules correctly.
Was the Barbarian making running jumps each attempt, and did they have 22 Strength? Was the Barbarian a Totem Warrior with the Tiger Totem Spirit? If so, they did nothing wrong.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I took the "two attempts" to mean that they used both of their attacks from Extra Attack to attempt the grapple. I think I would allow that to be done in one jump.
I will also note that a 6' tall creature (reach of 9' high) would need to jump 9 feet off the ground to reach a dragon 18' in the air, which would require at least 22 strength to do.
Doesn't sound like that was ruled right. Unless it was a Totem Warrior(Tiger) barbarian, in which case... that's kinda what their whole thing is.
I would allow an athletics check to jump a few feet higher than you normally could, and RAW allows for it (p. 182 PHB). It might end in a massive face plant if they fail, but it allows for epic coolness if they succeed.
Grappling a large creature sounds reasonable. You can control a larger opponent with a well placed joint lock--even one handed in a pinch. Real life jiu jitsu is completely based on that principal.
Plus, I figure it's a bit unfair if magic users get, well, magic, and fighters have to stick to strictly realistic human strength and athleticism.
So I was just messing around with one of my characters, a Lvl 12 Wood Elf Barbarian, and I was looking at the rules for jumping. With a running start, you can jump up a number of feet equal to 3 + your Str mod. Well, she has a +4 in strength. What's more, is that the distance you can reach when high jumping is equal to the height of the jump plus 1.5 times your height. With a full, 7 foot jump, this elf woman can reach 15 feet in the air. Jumping is wack in D&D.
A lich beholder could and would fight God. I desperately want to make it fight my players instead.
Cool--she has a crazy jump!
The current world record high jump is 8 ft, 1/2 inch. Admittedly, it's with a different technique than a straight "jump and reach," but hey, these are epic heroes! They can be a bit superhuman.
... I take it you're complaining that that's too high? You're a fantasy elf who's people often live in treetops and you have ridiculous athletics abilities, of course you can make amazing jumps.
And that's a problem, why exactly? It's not even unrealistic, as it's been noted that real-life athletes have exceeded that distance.
If you don't have a running start, you can only jump 3.5 feet vertically. I can clear that.
While I think you do correctly understand how jumping rules work, I just want to clarify what the components mean. The 7 foot vertical jump (with running start) is the maximum elevation change from the surface plane to the lowest point on your body (typically your feet). The 1.5 times creature height signifies full vertical extension of arms in the direction of the jump. This is added to the height of the jump itself to indicate the maximum reachable height. You don't jump 15 feet from the surface plane (that's still 7 feet); you can reach 15 feet from the surface plane (extension of appendages). I.e., when you make a 7 foot vertical running jump, you can grab something that's up to 15 feet above the surface plane.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
It’s whack, if you think of it as a simulation, because hulking unwieldy creatures like golems, bulls, bears, etc can jump better than graceful creatures like panthers, gazelles, etc...
... but 5E isn’t and doesn’t try to be a simulation. Jump distance keyed off strength is one of the saving graces that stops it from being a total dump stat for most classes. Dexterity already has much going for it for everyone, as does constitution, so poor old strength needs SOMETHING going for it. Athletics, carry weight, and jump speed are Strength’s saving grace.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Yes you can jump that in regular clothes, you can jump that in chain mail, and you can jump that in plate armour. D&D has always have it strangeness.
No Gaming is Better than Bad Gaming.
By RAW, yes, the Jump Mechanism (and Grappling, to name another) are insanely broken. If you play a RAW table, you are stuck with the rules. If your DM alters the rules in session 0, to something more reasonable, more power to the DM.
How exactly is jumping "insanely broken"? Seriously, nobody has presented an argument for what they think is actually wrong with the rule & interaction. Do you think creatures are jumping too high/far? Too low/short? Something else? Please tell us what you think is wrong.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Jumping is fine.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I believe the term you are looking for is "cinematic." Jumping in D&D is cinematic.
Vertical jumping distances are broken.
An optimized jumper can do stupid video game dragoon tricks, jumping 60+ feet into the air or 10-20' multiple times to perform multiple suplexes per round (since jumping doesn't require an action) on a grappled creature. The only thing that isn't airtight RAW about one's ability to do so is whether the jumper themself would also take fall damage from these crazy jumps, so DM fiat ends up being the main limitation on building a dragoon.
But is that "broken"? It's a fantasy game, with fantasy tropes, and it's a very very very specialized build that doesn't really do anything else well other than grappling and jumping with a single Tiny-Large enemy within their carrying capacity. Pretty limited. Most characters are going to be jumping 3-8 feet up if they really run for it, or 1-4 feet standing. What in the game system does that break? It's not even particularly unrealistic compared against real-world fitness enthusiasts, much less against fantasy heroes and magical monsters?
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I was playing in one game, where the 6'3" Barbarian leaped into the air with weapon in one hand, trying to Grapple a Large Dragon flying 18 feet overhead. 1st attempt at Grapple missed, 2nd time worked. Then, he dragged the Dragon to the ground, holding with a single hand. (Speed = 0 for Grappled Creature). After that, when I ran my own table, in session 0 I presented my table with printed docs on Jumping, Grappling, Falling, among others.
Was what the Barbarian within RAW? Yes. Was it ridiculous, even within a fantasy setting? Also yes.
Ridiculus for an "only" large dragon? Not neccessarily.
That sounds super awesome and fun. Why do you want to suck the joy out of this game? WHY?!
Just checked. Black and Green Young Dragons have a STR score of 19... so a raging Barbarian grappling them would definetely reduce their ability to fly straight.
I will also note that a 6' tall creature (reach of 9' high) would need to jump 9 feet off the ground to reach a dragon 18' in the air, which would require at least 22 strength to do.
Doesn't sound like that was ruled right. Unless it was a Totem Warrior(Tiger) barbarian, in which case... that's kinda what their whole thing is.
It would also require the Barbarian to have moved 10 feet to qualify for the "running jump", and that would've concluded with the first jumping grapple attempt. Unless they "took a lap" for each jump attempt, that second jump would have been limited to 4.5 feet vertical with a max reach of 13.5 feet.
Vince_Snetterton, it sounds like your table may have simply not followed the actual rules correctly.
Was the Barbarian making running jumps each attempt, and did they have 22 Strength? Was the Barbarian a Totem Warrior with the Tiger Totem Spirit? If so, they did nothing wrong.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I took the "two attempts" to mean that they used both of their attacks from Extra Attack to attempt the grapple. I think I would allow that to be done in one jump.
I would allow an athletics check to jump a few feet higher than you normally could, and RAW allows for it (p. 182 PHB). It might end in a massive face plant if they fail, but it allows for epic coolness if they succeed.
Grappling a large creature sounds reasonable. You can control a larger opponent with a well placed joint lock--even one handed in a pinch. Real life jiu jitsu is completely based on that principal.
Plus, I figure it's a bit unfair if magic users get, well, magic, and fighters have to stick to strictly realistic human strength and athleticism.