Funniest thing is that a godly strong human fighter can't lift more than 600 lbs. That means it trying to grapple a creature that is like 3 times that weight seems unlikely.
No, it really doesn't mean that. The key principle behind grappling is using your opponent's mass against them. Have you heard of Judo? :p
Yeah...that is only fair if you assume roughly the same body size. Judo at most you would have about a 100lb difference if that.
In this we are are talking about a 1000-2000lb difference (likely more) between combatants.
Honestly its just more I think high strength builds should be able to lift more in general. The fact a barbarian (sans bear totem) can never lift more than 720 without magic items is sad.
It really does not make a difference. It's actually easier to accomplish on larger people because their mass distribution is typically more uneven, and when you kick a leg out they fall harder.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Honestly its just more I think high strength builds should be able to lift more in general. The fact a barbarian (sans bear totem) can never lift more than 720 without magic items is sad.
*Laughs in Goliath*
Seriously though guys you don't need to think of it as wrestling. The barbarian jumped up and grabbed the membrane of the dragon's wing. Mighty creature or not, a sudden 200+lbs hanging from the edge of its wing is bringing it down. Jumping may be rather fantastic (in a fantasy game? How dare it.) but it's very easy to find a narrative for how grappling would work in any situation where it mechanically can.
It really does not make a difference. It's actually easier to accomplish on larger people because their mass distribution is typically more uneven, and when you kick a leg out they fall harder.
uhh...yeah it totally does. People can't normally just trip a bear because they want to lol....
Like dont get me wrong I WANT this to be a thing in DnD and I am willing to hold my disbelief to make it happen because of course I would its DnD. I would even go as far as to say I have no problem with barbarians jumping and freaking grappling a dragon out of the sky at level 20. They should be able to do that!
However, I am just simply saying that a barbarian can grapple a large creature that weights 1000s of lbs easily while only being able to lift 600 lbs is pretty dumb. Its less of a mechanics point and more of a weird "huh" moment in the game.
Even the worlds strongest man would be completely manhandled by a creature that weights that much and its not even remotely close. Hell even a gorilla would simply toss a man aside no problem without even breaking a sweat.
Like just let barbarians lift more as a class feature. It has such little mechanical impact as it is. Hell a GOO-lock at level 9 is better than a barbarian for solving moving stuff.
They get telekinesis which lets them lift something up to 1000lbs or a HUGE SIZE CREATURE.
The best the barbarian (sans bear totem) can do is 600lbs (assuming they maxed STR and didnt want a feat) and can only grapple a large creature.
In the context of just lifting, I’ve seen DMs pretty often allow Athletics checks to lift (not necessarily carry around) objects heavier than Strength would allow. A Raging barbarian should not only have a high Athletics, but advantage on that check as well, and I’ve never really had the experience of encountering something that the group felt a barbarian SHOULD be able to lift but couldn’t.
If Big Lifts are your aim, just stack some more features... That 720 becomes 1440 as a Powerful Build race, or 2880 if Enlarged, and 5760 if Enhance Ability’d, and...
Like anything else, you can lean into and optimize carrying capacity.
In the context of just lifting, I’ve seen DMs pretty often allow Athletics checks to lift (not necessarily carry around) objects heavier than Strength would allow. A Raging barbarian should not only have a high Athletics, but advantage on that check as well, and I’ve never really had the experience of encountering something that the group felt a barbarian SHOULD be able to lift but couldn’t.
If Big Lifts are your aim, just stack some more features... That 720 becomes 1440 as a Powerful Build race, or 2880 if Enlarged, and 5760 if Enhance Ability’d, and...
Like anything else, you can lean into and optimize carrying capacity.
So you have to:
Pick a select few races
Spend two spell slots
To do what a wizard/warlock can do with one spell slot? Honestly that id pretty limiting.
Strength is so bad this edition its not even funny. They are already worse off than DEX by a large margin and they can't even do the thing they are suppose to be good at better than a wizard its kinda sad.
Also the ATH check thing is a decent idea but is not RAW so you have to just suggest it as homebrew.
Honestly its just more I think high strength builds should be able to lift more in general. The fact a barbarian (sans bear totem) can never lift more than 720 without magic items is sad.
*Laughs in Goliath*
Seriously though guys you don't need to think of it as wrestling. The barbarian jumped up and grabbed the membrane of the dragon's wing. Mighty creature or not, a sudden 200+lbs hanging from the edge of its wing is bringing it down. Jumping may be rather fantastic (in a fantasy game? How dare it.) but it's very easy to find a narrative for how grappling would work in any situation where it mechanically can.
Thats the other sad part....they can't ever grapple anything larger than a large size creature without help. I would love to see a high level barb jump up and grab a freaking dragon out of the sky. That would be awesome! But as it stands they can't do that.
Yeah, RAW, you can't Grapple something that's more than one size larger than you, so you'll have to be Enlarged to try to grab a dragon at the very least (or even Wildshaped, and then Enlarged!). It isn't outside the realm of reasonable that a DM would let you ignore that, but if so, then you're in the realm of maybe it looking more like a Ride a Larger Creature action than a grapple, is their speed still being set to 0, etc.
What's more, is that the distance you can reach when high jumping is equal to the height of the jump plus 1.5 times your height. With a full, 7 foot jump, this elf woman can reach 15 feet in the air. Jumping is wack in D&D.
Not really that wack. 15 feet up is only foot or two above the top of a basketball backboard. You can eaily imagine a top basketballer (after all, STR 18 is an exceptional score) being able to touch their hands that high
The running start largest vertical ever recorded at an NFL combine , or among NBA players, is 48 inches, or 4 feet. To suggest that a D&D char, fully loaded with gear, is going to have a vertical of 5 feet at STR 20 has no bearing with human reality and/or earthlike gravity. Sure, that is what RAW says. But if anyone every wants to model their game closer to the real world, vertical jumping distances should be dramatically altered.
STR 20 has no bearing with human reality.
The bit about vertical reach being 1½ times your height is probably the real offender. Humans have a reach to height ratio of 1.35 (extra 1/3, roughly) at most. So, a 6ft elf with STR 20 could jump vertically 5ft. With a reach of 8ft they can slap something 13ft off the ground (or use a sword to hit something 15ft off the ground). I suspect the half is just to make maths easier.
Yeah, RAW, you can't Grapple something that's more than one size larger than you, so you'll have to be Enlarged to try to grab a dragon at the very least (or even Wildshaped, and then Enlarged!). It isn't outside the realm of reasonable that a DM would let you ignore that, but if so, then you're in the realm of maybe it looking more like a Ride a Larger Creature action than a grapple, is their speed still being set to 0, etc.
The OP said large dragon, so that would be a Young Dragon of any sort. This is actually possible to do, following the rules.
So I was just messing around with one of my characters, a Lvl 12 Wood Elf Barbarian, and I was looking at the rules for jumping. With a running start, you can jump up a number of feet equal to 3 + your Str mod. Well, she has a +4 in strength. What's more, is that the distance you can reach when high jumping is equal to the height of the jump plus 1.5 times your height. With a full, 7 foot jump, this elf woman can reach 15 feet in the air. Jumping is wack in D&D.
So you're saying that a Rogue with 8 Str can jump TWO FEET?
Someone PLEASE tell me this isn't right. In fact, I can find rules for Jump distance anywhere! Help!
So you're saying that a Rogue with 8 Str can jump TWO FEET?
Someone PLEASE tell me this isn't right. In fact, I can find rules for Jump distance anywhere! Help!
The jumping rules can be found in chapter 8 of the PHB under Movement, which is here.
You can do a running long jump equal to your strength score, or half that for a standing one. So a rogue - or any other class - with a strength score of 8 can do a running long jump of 8 feet, or a standing long jump of 4 feet.
You can do a running high jump equal to 3 + your strength modifier, or half that for a standing high jump. So a character with 8 strength can indeed only jump 2 feet off the ground with a running high jump, or 1 foot from a standing one.
Why are you so perturbed by this? The average human in DnD has a strength score of 10, so having a strength score of 8 means you're weaker than average. According to a quick google search, the average vertical jump height for an adult man (in real life, of course) is in the 16-20 inch range, so even a below average DnD character can jump higher than average people in real life can.
You want some wacky jumping? Well, now thanks to Path of the Beast being official we have the king high jumper (and long jumper, at that).
At level 6, one of the options for bestial soul is:
"When you jump, you can make a Strength (athletics) check and extend your jump by a number of feet equal to the check's total. You can make this special check only once per turn.
With regards to long jumping, this also makes no mention of it contributing to your movement expenditure in the normal 1-to-1, which would make sense, as what they are going for is the lycanthrope jumping from rooftop-to-rooftop trope. Anyway, so the consequences of this:
At level 20, a barbarian who maxed STR before their level 20 will have a strength of 24, for a +7 modifier. A Bestial Soul PotB barbarian will then be able to make their athletics check, which, short of athletics expertise, which is now more readily accessible if playing with the Tasha's book, has a max check of 33 and an average check of 23/24. With expertise in athletics, that becomes a 39 max check and 29/30 average check. This can all presumably be combined with the traits of satyrs, who get an additional 1d8 to their long and high jumps, though this is subject to movement rules (not that 34+8 can beat out a Satyr Barbarian's 45 movement it would depend on if you apply Satyr leaps before bestial soul or satyr leaps after bestial soul). So, the king jumper is theoretically a level 20 Path of the Beast Satyr Barbarian with expertise in athletics. Their jumps are as follows:
If allowing the application of Satyr leaps before bestial soul:
Max long jump: 24+8+39= 71 feet
Average long Jump: 24+4/5+29/30= 57/59 feet
Max high jump: 3+7+8+39= 57 feet
Average high jump: 3+7+4/5+29/30= 43/45 feet
If disallowing the application of satyr leaps before bestial soul:
Max long jump: 63 feet
Average long jump: 53/54 feet
Does this seems broken to you, or does it usurp path of the eagle? Not necessarily. If you rule it that the Path of the Beast has to take all of that additional granted jump height of the high jumps, then they'll be even more of an uncontrollable self-damage beast than eagle and you'll be able to evoke even more athletics or acrobatics checks to not fall on their face. Eagle also has more in-air control with their flight speed, as opposed to just jumping really far or really high (but only one of those at a time).
You want some wacky jumping? Well, now thanks to Path of the Beast being official we have the king high jumper (and long jumper, at that).
At level 6, one of the options for bestial soul is:
"When you jump, you can make a Strength (athletics) check and extend your jump by a number of feet equal to the check's total. You can make this special check only once per turn.
With regards to long jumping, this also makes no mention of it contributing to your movement expenditure in the normal 1-to-1, which would make sense, as what they are going for is the lycanthrope jumping from rooftop-to-rooftop trope. Anyway, so the consequences of this:
At level 20, a barbarian who maxed STR before their level 20 will have a strength of 24, for a +7 modifier. A Bestial Soul PotB barbarian will then be able to make their athletics check, which, short of athletics expertise, which is now more readily accessible if playing with the Tasha's book, has a max check of 33 and an average check of 23/24. With expertise in athletics, that becomes a 39 max check and 29/30 average check. This can all presumably be combined with the traits of satyrs, who get an additional 1d8 to their long and high jumps, though this is subject to movement rules (not that 34+8 can beat out a Satyr Barbarian's 45 movement it would depend on if you apply Satyr leaps before bestial soul or satyr leaps after bestial soul). So, the king jumper is theoretically a level 20 Path of the Beast Satyr Barbarian with expertise in athletics. Their jumps are as follows:
If allowing the application of Satyr leaps before bestial soul:
Max long jump: 24+8+39= 71 feet
Average long Jump: 24+4/5+29/30= 57/59 feet
Max high jump: 3+7+8+39= 57 feet
Average high jump: 3+7+4/5+29/30= 43/45 feet
If disallowing the application of satyr leaps before bestial soul:
Max long jump: 63 feet
Average long jump: 53/54 feet
Does this seems broken to you, or does it usurp path of the eagle? Not necessarily. If you rule it that the Path of the Beast has to take all of that additional granted jump height of the high jumps, then they'll be even more of an uncontrollable self-damage beast than eagle and you'll be able to evoke even more athletics or acrobatics checks to not fall on their face. Eagle also has more in-air control with their flight speed, as opposed to just jumping really far or really high (but only one of those at a time).
Unfortunately you can't jump more than your walking speed so that's a lot of wasted ft
This is potentially an ambiguous area, as it does not follow the formatting as with "mirthful leaps" where it explicitly calls out the bonus movement as being restricted to jump rules, and this doesn't follow that precedent, it merely states that you extend your jump by the check total, your jump being the action that you took.
And if it did, there is a spell known as Haste which doubles your movement speed, meaning that all of this would be possible anyway, so they're still king of the jump.
This is potentially an ambiguous area, as it does not follow the formatting as with "mirthful leaps" where it explicitly calls out the bonus movement as being restricted to jump rules, and this doesn't follow that precedent, it merely states that you extend your jump by the check total, your jump being the action that you took.
And if it did, there is a spell known as Haste which doubles your movement speed, meaning that all of this would be possible anyway, so they're still king of the jump.
You would need a friend to cast on you but it could work!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Yeah...that is only fair if you assume roughly the same body size. Judo at most you would have about a 100lb difference if that.
In this we are are talking about a 1000-2000lb difference (likely more) between combatants.
Honestly its just more I think high strength builds should be able to lift more in general. The fact a barbarian (sans bear totem) can never lift more than 720 without magic items is sad.
It really does not make a difference. It's actually easier to accomplish on larger people because their mass distribution is typically more uneven, and when you kick a leg out they fall harder.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
*Laughs in Goliath*
Seriously though guys you don't need to think of it as wrestling. The barbarian jumped up and grabbed the membrane of the dragon's wing. Mighty creature or not, a sudden 200+lbs hanging from the edge of its wing is bringing it down. Jumping may be rather fantastic (in a fantasy game? How dare it.) but it's very easy to find a narrative for how grappling would work in any situation where it mechanically can.
uhh...yeah it totally does. People can't normally just trip a bear because they want to lol....
Like dont get me wrong I WANT this to be a thing in DnD and I am willing to hold my disbelief to make it happen because of course I would its DnD. I would even go as far as to say I have no problem with barbarians jumping and freaking grappling a dragon out of the sky at level 20. They should be able to do that!
However, I am just simply saying that a barbarian can grapple a large creature that weights 1000s of lbs easily while only being able to lift 600 lbs is pretty dumb. Its less of a mechanics point and more of a weird "huh" moment in the game.
Even the worlds strongest man would be completely manhandled by a creature that weights that much and its not even remotely close. Hell even a gorilla would simply toss a man aside no problem without even breaking a sweat.
Like just let barbarians lift more as a class feature. It has such little mechanical impact as it is. Hell a GOO-lock at level 9 is better than a barbarian for solving moving stuff.
They get telekinesis which lets them lift something up to 1000lbs or a HUGE SIZE CREATURE.
The best the barbarian (sans bear totem) can do is 600lbs (assuming they maxed STR and didnt want a feat) and can only grapple a large creature.
Sad how they did Strength this edition honestly.
In the context of just lifting, I’ve seen DMs pretty often allow Athletics checks to lift (not necessarily carry around) objects heavier than Strength would allow. A Raging barbarian should not only have a high Athletics, but advantage on that check as well, and I’ve never really had the experience of encountering something that the group felt a barbarian SHOULD be able to lift but couldn’t.
If Big Lifts are your aim, just stack some more features... That 720 becomes 1440 as a Powerful Build race, or 2880 if Enlarged, and 5760 if Enhance Ability’d, and...
Like anything else, you can lean into and optimize carrying capacity.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
So you have to:
Pick a select few races
Spend two spell slots
To do what a wizard/warlock can do with one spell slot? Honestly that id pretty limiting.
Strength is so bad this edition its not even funny. They are already worse off than DEX by a large margin and they can't even do the thing they are suppose to be good at better than a wizard its kinda sad.
Also the ATH check thing is a decent idea but is not RAW so you have to just suggest it as homebrew.
Thats the other sad part....they can't ever grapple anything larger than a large size creature without help. I would love to see a high level barb jump up and grab a freaking dragon out of the sky. That would be awesome! But as it stands they can't do that.
Grab a dragon out of the sky? Wouldn;'t the dragon just be carrying the goliath at that point?
"Not all those who wander are lost"
My idea would be they actually have the sheer mythical strength to wrend the wing an bring it down
Grappled condition = 0 Speed;
0 Fly speed = Fall unless you have hover speed which dragons don't
But that would be pretty funny too!
Yeah, RAW, you can't Grapple something that's more than one size larger than you, so you'll have to be Enlarged to try to grab a dragon at the very least (or even Wildshaped, and then Enlarged!). It isn't outside the realm of reasonable that a DM would let you ignore that, but if so, then you're in the realm of maybe it looking more like a Ride a Larger Creature action than a grapple, is their speed still being set to 0, etc.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
STR 20 has no bearing with human reality.
The bit about vertical reach being 1½ times your height is probably the real offender. Humans have a reach to height ratio of 1.35 (extra 1/3, roughly) at most. So, a 6ft elf with STR 20 could jump vertically 5ft. With a reach of 8ft they can slap something 13ft off the ground (or use a sword to hit something 15ft off the ground). I suspect the half is just to make maths easier.
The OP said large dragon, so that would be a Young Dragon of any sort. This is actually possible to do, following the rules.
Yes, I thought the conversation had moved on to huge dragons with thousands of pounds of weight difference.
if were still talking about just grabbing flying lizard horses by the wing, yeah, obviously it’s fine and grapple working as intended.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
So you're saying that a Rogue with 8 Str can jump TWO FEET?
Someone PLEASE tell me this isn't right. In fact, I can find rules for Jump distance anywhere! Help!
The jumping rules can be found in chapter 8 of the PHB under Movement, which is here.
You can do a running long jump equal to your strength score, or half that for a standing one. So a rogue - or any other class - with a strength score of 8 can do a running long jump of 8 feet, or a standing long jump of 4 feet.
You can do a running high jump equal to 3 + your strength modifier, or half that for a standing high jump. So a character with 8 strength can indeed only jump 2 feet off the ground with a running high jump, or 1 foot from a standing one.
Why are you so perturbed by this? The average human in DnD has a strength score of 10, so having a strength score of 8 means you're weaker than average. According to a quick google search, the average vertical jump height for an adult man (in real life, of course) is in the 16-20 inch range, so even a below average DnD character can jump higher than average people in real life can.
You do realize that the vertical reach rules are how far off the ground you can grab, not how far off the ground your feat get?
The guiness record is 5.5 up. If you are 7 ft tall, that would be 12.5 So you are complaining that they let us jump 15 ft rather than 12.5
You want some wacky jumping? Well, now thanks to Path of the Beast being official we have the king high jumper (and long jumper, at that).
At level 6, one of the options for bestial soul is:
With regards to long jumping, this also makes no mention of it contributing to your movement expenditure in the normal 1-to-1, which would make sense, as what they are going for is the lycanthrope jumping from rooftop-to-rooftop trope. Anyway, so the consequences of this:
At level 20, a barbarian who maxed STR before their level 20 will have a strength of 24, for a +7 modifier. A Bestial Soul PotB barbarian will then be able to make their athletics check, which, short of athletics expertise, which is now more readily accessible if playing with the Tasha's book, has a max check of 33 and an average check of 23/24. With expertise in athletics, that becomes a 39 max check and 29/30 average check. This can all presumably be combined with the traits of satyrs, who get an additional 1d8 to their long and high jumps, though this is subject to movement rules (not that 34+8 can beat out a Satyr Barbarian's 45 movement it would depend on if you apply Satyr leaps before bestial soul or satyr leaps after bestial soul). So, the king jumper is theoretically a level 20 Path of the Beast Satyr Barbarian with expertise in athletics. Their jumps are as follows:
If allowing the application of Satyr leaps before bestial soul:
Max long jump: 24+8+39= 71 feet
Average long Jump: 24+4/5+29/30= 57/59 feet
Max high jump: 3+7+8+39= 57 feet
Average high jump: 3+7+4/5+29/30= 43/45 feet
If disallowing the application of satyr leaps before bestial soul:
Max long jump: 63 feet
Average long jump: 53/54 feet
Does this seems broken to you, or does it usurp path of the eagle? Not necessarily. If you rule it that the Path of the Beast has to take all of that additional granted jump height of the high jumps, then they'll be even more of an uncontrollable self-damage beast than eagle and you'll be able to evoke even more athletics or acrobatics checks to not fall on their face. Eagle also has more in-air control with their flight speed, as opposed to just jumping really far or really high (but only one of those at a time).
Unfortunately you can't jump more than your walking speed so that's a lot of wasted ft
This is potentially an ambiguous area, as it does not follow the formatting as with "mirthful leaps" where it explicitly calls out the bonus movement as being restricted to jump rules, and this doesn't follow that precedent, it merely states that you extend your jump by the check total, your jump being the action that you took.
And if it did, there is a spell known as Haste which doubles your movement speed, meaning that all of this would be possible anyway, so they're still king of the jump.
You would need a friend to cast on you but it could work!