I took the "two attempts" to mean that they used both of their attacks from Extra Attack to attempt the grapple. I think I would allow that to be done in one jump.
That's fair. I suppose there's no rule preventing someone from using any/all of their attacks midair during one jump.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
For those doing the math: Yes, running high jump. Str = 20 = 8 foot vertical. The DM said 1.5 the height of 6'3" was close enough to 10 feet. I think it should still be 9 feet, but DM rounded up to 10. So based on the ridiculous rules, the Barbarian grazing the Dragon with his fingertips is enough for a Grapple.
Yes, once again, because of terrible Jump rules, a char can freeze time and make 2 attacks in mid-air, assuming they have Extra Attack. In fact, they can make 3 attacks, if two weapons. So two Grapple attempts are allowed, assuming the equally terrible rules of one Grapple = 1 attack are followed.
And as for stopping dead in its tracks a Large creature, by RAW, sure. By even the remotest link to reality, not a chance. Ever watch a rodeo? You watch cowboys tackle calves. You don't see them tackling full grown, angry bulls, because, well, cowboys would die.
You also don't see them tackling dragons because they don't exist in reality. D&D isn't reality. Your DM made a ruling on their interpretation of the rule. That means your qualm is with their interpretation, not the rule itself.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
You also don't see them tackling dragons because they don't exist in reality. D&D isn't reality. Your DM made a ruling on their interpretation of the rule. That means your qualm is with their interpretation, not the rule itself.
I don't see any Medium size creature, on this planet or in the D&D universe, tackling a full grown bull, one with wings and breathes fire, or one that does not fly and breathe fire, with one hand, bringing it to a full stop, immediately. Or leaping 17 or 18 feet into the air and picking it out of the air with a single hand, like you would pick an apple off a tree. So yes, I have a huge problem with RAW in Jumping, and Grappling, in this case. And I rectified it in session 0 of my own game.
Paul Bunyan wrestling his giant ox Babe, Gilgamesh wrestling Enkidu, Hercules wrestling the Nemean Lion, Tyr wrestling Fenrir, Beowulf wrestling Grendel...
People may not wrestle large monsters in real life, but fantasy/mythology is full of it.
You're entitled to your opinion, and to run your game however you'd like. That has no impact on the rule itself, and let's recall that they are not jumping 17-18 feet off the ground. They are jumping 8-9 feet off the ground, which is well within actual human capability as established in post #2 of this thread, and their extended hands are already >9 feet off the ground.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Paul Bunyan wrestling his giant ox Babe, Gilgamesh wrestling Enkidu, Hercules wrestling the Nemean Lion, Tyr wrestling Fenrir, Beowulf wrestling Grendel...
People may not wrestle large monsters in real life, but fantasy/mythology is full of it.
With a single hand? Nope. Or while airborne? Nope.
So in response to the OP's question, is Jumping Whack? By RAW, yes.
Paul Bunyan wrestling his giant ox Babe, Gilgamesh wrestling Enkidu, Hercules wrestling the Nemean Lion, Tyr wrestling Fenrir, Beowulf wrestling Grendel...
People may not wrestle large monsters in real life, but fantasy/mythology is full of it.
With a single hand? Nope. Or while airborne? Nope.
So in response to the OP's question, is Jumping Whack? By RAW, yes.
Unamaginative. I would picture it as a DM as pulling himself up on the dragons back, graping the wings with his full body.
Paul Bunyan wrestling his giant ox Babe, Gilgamesh wrestling Enkidu, Hercules wrestling the Nemean Lion, Tyr wrestling Fenrir, Beowulf wrestling Grendel...
People may not wrestle large monsters in real life, but fantasy/mythology is full of it.
With a single hand? Nope. Or while airborne? Nope.
So in response to the OP's question, is Jumping Whack? By RAW, yes.
Unamaginative. I would picture it as a DM as pulling himself up on the dragons back, graping the wings with his full body.
Let's not let the thread devolve into who is or isn't a good DM, different folks have different styles, let's leave it at that. Vince doesn't like larger-than-life jumping (or grappling) in his games and houserules it to work a different way, and communicates that to his players during session 0. I don't see anything wrong with that, and the DMG would agree.
Paul Bunyan wrestling his giant ox Babe, Gilgamesh wrestling Enkidu, Hercules wrestling the Nemean Lion, Tyr wrestling Fenrir, Beowulf wrestling Grendel...
People may not wrestle large monsters in real life, but fantasy/mythology is full of it.
With a single hand? Nope. Or while airborne? Nope.
So in response to the OP's question, is Jumping Whack? By RAW, yes.
No, not by RAW, only by your interpretation of what a grapple is or should be. A grapple doesn't have to be a triangle choke headlock or a figure four armlock, especially not according to RAW. Since it's not described in detail what a grapple is all we have to go on are the effects of a grapple which is simple that speed is reduced to zero. In other words, a succesful grapple can be pretty much anything that prevents the victim from moving.
In the case with the dragon it could easily be as simple as the mighty barbarian, stronger than most mortals could even dream of, stronger than even the dragon itself, jumps after the escaping dragon and just barely managing to catch on to a wing or claw or tail which is enough to off-set the dragons flying ability enough to have the dragon slam to the ground. Once down, the barbarian quickly moved his grip to the neck of the monster, holding it in place will furiously chopping away with his weapon.
Unrealistic? Yeah, dragons aren't real. "Whack" or broken or unfitting for a epic fantasy game? No, not really. :)
And yes, Tyr did wrestle the Fenris one-handed. ;)
What's more, is that the distance you can reach when high jumping is equal to the height of the jump plus 1.5 times your height. With a full, 7 foot jump, this elf woman can reach 15 feet in the air. Jumping is wack in D&D.
Not really that wack. 15 feet up is only foot or two above the top of a basketball backboard. You can eaily imagine a top basketballer (after all, STR 18 is an exceptional score) being able to touch their hands that high
What's more, is that the distance you can reach when high jumping is equal to the height of the jump plus 1.5 times your height. With a full, 7 foot jump, this elf woman can reach 15 feet in the air. Jumping is wack in D&D.
Not really that wack. 15 feet up is only foot or two above the top of a basketball backboard. You can eaily imagine a top basketballer (after all, STR 18 is an exceptional score) being able to touch their hands that high
The running start largest vertical ever recorded at an NFL combine , or among NBA players, is 48 inches, or 4 feet. To suggest that a D&D char, fully loaded with gear, is going to have a vertical of 5 feet at STR 20 has no bearing with human reality and/or earthlike gravity. Sure, that is what RAW says. But if anyone every wants to model their game closer to the real world, vertical jumping distances should be dramatically altered.
What's more, is that the distance you can reach when high jumping is equal to the height of the jump plus 1.5 times your height. With a full, 7 foot jump, this elf woman can reach 15 feet in the air. Jumping is wack in D&D.
Not really that wack. 15 feet up is only foot or two above the top of a basketball backboard. You can eaily imagine a top basketballer (after all, STR 18 is an exceptional score) being able to touch their hands that high
The running start largest vertical ever recorded at an NFL combine , or among NBA players, is 48 inches, or 4 feet. To suggest that a D&D char, fully loaded with gear, is going to have a vertical of 5 feet at STR 20 has no bearing with human reality and/or earthlike gravity. Sure, that is what RAW says. But if anyone every wants to model their game closer to the real world, vertical jumping distances should be dramatically altered.
But that is homebrew, not RAW...and this is the rules forum
What's more, is that the distance you can reach when high jumping is equal to the height of the jump plus 1.5 times your height. With a full, 7 foot jump, this elf woman can reach 15 feet in the air. Jumping is wack in D&D.
Not really that wack. 15 feet up is only foot or two above the top of a basketball backboard. You can eaily imagine a top basketballer (after all, STR 18 is an exceptional score) being able to touch their hands that high
The running start largest vertical ever recorded at an NFL combine , or among NBA players, is 48 inches, or 4 feet. To suggest that a D&D char, fully loaded with gear, is going to have a vertical of 5 feet at STR 20 has no bearing with human reality and/or earthlike gravity. Sure, that is what RAW says. But if anyone every wants to model their game closer to the real world, vertical jumping distances should be dramatically altered.
But that is homebrew, not RAW...and this is the rules forum
I am well aware. The OP's first comment was about how ridiculous the rules are, and I agree.
Consider that wizards get Levitate at level 3. They get Fly at level 5. A level 3 druid could have grounded that dragon with Earthbind and you wouldn't have blinked an eye.
I get that some DMs are fine with magic users totally eclipsing martial characters in every respect, but damn. Give these guys something. If some characters can literally do magic, why can't the rest of them have marginally unrealistic powers? I cringe whenever "realism" is brought up in D&D because magic infuses this whole game and magic isn't real. You don't need to be real, you just need to be consistent. And you can base that consistency around what a PC can do. You can make the world, so build it around the characters rather than bending the basic rules of the game to fit them into your world.
What's more, is that the distance you can reach when high jumping is equal to the height of the jump plus 1.5 times your height. With a full, 7 foot jump, this elf woman can reach 15 feet in the air. Jumping is wack in D&D.
Not really that wack. 15 feet up is only foot or two above the top of a basketball backboard. You can eaily imagine a top basketballer (after all, STR 18 is an exceptional score) being able to touch their hands that high
The running start largest vertical ever recorded at an NFL combine , or among NBA players, is 48 inches, or 4 feet. To suggest that a D&D char, fully loaded with gear, is going to have a vertical of 5 feet at STR 20 has no bearing with human reality and/or earthlike gravity. Sure, that is what RAW says. But if anyone every wants to model their game closer to the real world, vertical jumping distances should be dramatically altered.
But that is homebrew, not RAW...and this is the rules forum
This is also the game mechanics forum and we are definitely discussing game mechanics. If you feel the post is inappropriate, then report it.
Funniest thing is that a godly strong human fighter can't lift more than 600 lbs. That means it trying to grapple a creature that is like 3 times that weight seems unlikely.
Funniest thing is that a godly strong human fighter can't lift more than 600 lbs. That means it trying to grapple a creature that is like 3 times that weight seems unlikely.
No, it really doesn't mean that. The key principle behind grappling is using your opponent's mass against them. Have you heard of Judo? :p
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
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That's fair. I suppose there's no rule preventing someone from using any/all of their attacks midair during one jump.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
For those doing the math: Yes, running high jump. Str = 20 = 8 foot vertical. The DM said 1.5 the height of 6'3" was close enough to 10 feet. I think it should still be 9 feet, but DM rounded up to 10. So based on the ridiculous rules, the Barbarian grazing the Dragon with his fingertips is enough for a Grapple.
Yes, once again, because of terrible Jump rules, a char can freeze time and make 2 attacks in mid-air, assuming they have Extra Attack. In fact, they can make 3 attacks, if two weapons. So two Grapple attempts are allowed, assuming the equally terrible rules of one Grapple = 1 attack are followed.
And as for stopping dead in its tracks a Large creature, by RAW, sure. By even the remotest link to reality, not a chance. Ever watch a rodeo? You watch cowboys tackle calves. You don't see them tackling full grown, angry bulls, because, well, cowboys would die.
You also don't see them tackling dragons because they don't exist in reality. D&D isn't reality. Your DM made a ruling on their interpretation of the rule. That means your qualm is with their interpretation, not the rule itself.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I don't see any Medium size creature, on this planet or in the D&D universe, tackling a full grown bull, one with wings and breathes fire, or one that does not fly and breathe fire, with one hand, bringing it to a full stop, immediately. Or leaping 17 or 18 feet into the air and picking it out of the air with a single hand, like you would pick an apple off a tree. So yes, I have a huge problem with RAW in Jumping, and Grappling, in this case. And I rectified it in session 0 of my own game.
Paul Bunyan wrestling his giant ox Babe, Gilgamesh wrestling Enkidu, Hercules wrestling the Nemean Lion, Tyr wrestling Fenrir, Beowulf wrestling Grendel...
People may not wrestle large monsters in real life, but fantasy/mythology is full of it.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
You're entitled to your opinion, and to run your game however you'd like. That has no impact on the rule itself, and let's recall that they are not jumping 17-18 feet off the ground. They are jumping 8-9 feet off the ground, which is well within actual human capability as established in post #2 of this thread, and their extended hands are already >9 feet off the ground.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
With a single hand? Nope. Or while airborne? Nope.
So in response to the OP's question, is Jumping Whack? By RAW, yes.
Unamaginative. I would picture it as a DM as pulling himself up on the dragons back, graping the wings with his full body.
You and I have vastly differing views on DM'ing.
Let's not let the thread devolve into who is or isn't a good DM, different folks have different styles, let's leave it at that. Vince doesn't like larger-than-life jumping (or grappling) in his games and houserules it to work a different way, and communicates that to his players during session 0. I don't see anything wrong with that, and the DMG would agree.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
No, not by RAW, only by your interpretation of what a grapple is or should be. A grapple doesn't have to be a triangle choke headlock or a figure four armlock, especially not according to RAW. Since it's not described in detail what a grapple is all we have to go on are the effects of a grapple which is simple that speed is reduced to zero. In other words, a succesful grapple can be pretty much anything that prevents the victim from moving.
In the case with the dragon it could easily be as simple as the mighty barbarian, stronger than most mortals could even dream of, stronger than even the dragon itself, jumps after the escaping dragon and just barely managing to catch on to a wing or claw or tail which is enough to off-set the dragons flying ability enough to have the dragon slam to the ground. Once down, the barbarian quickly moved his grip to the neck of the monster, holding it in place will furiously chopping away with his weapon.
Unrealistic? Yeah, dragons aren't real. "Whack" or broken or unfitting for a epic fantasy game? No, not really. :)
And yes, Tyr did wrestle the Fenris one-handed. ;)
Good lord, I didn't mean for this to devolve so quickly. I just wanted to share a kinda broken game mechanic I discovered.
A lich beholder could and would fight God. I desperately want to make it fight my players instead.
Not really that wack. 15 feet up is only foot or two above the top of a basketball backboard. You can eaily imagine a top basketballer (after all, STR 18 is an exceptional score) being able to touch their hands that high
The running start largest vertical ever recorded at an NFL combine , or among NBA players, is 48 inches, or 4 feet. To suggest that a D&D char, fully loaded with gear, is going to have a vertical of 5 feet at STR 20 has no bearing with human reality and/or earthlike gravity. Sure, that is what RAW says. But if anyone every wants to model their game closer to the real world, vertical jumping distances should be dramatically altered.
But that is homebrew, not RAW...and this is the rules forum
I am well aware. The OP's first comment was about how ridiculous the rules are, and I agree.
Consider that wizards get Levitate at level 3. They get Fly at level 5. A level 3 druid could have grounded that dragon with Earthbind and you wouldn't have blinked an eye.
I get that some DMs are fine with magic users totally eclipsing martial characters in every respect, but damn. Give these guys something. If some characters can literally do magic, why can't the rest of them have marginally unrealistic powers? I cringe whenever "realism" is brought up in D&D because magic infuses this whole game and magic isn't real. You don't need to be real, you just need to be consistent. And you can base that consistency around what a PC can do. You can make the world, so build it around the characters rather than bending the basic rules of the game to fit them into your world.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
This is also the game mechanics forum and we are definitely discussing game mechanics. If you feel the post is inappropriate, then report it.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Funniest thing is that a godly strong human fighter can't lift more than 600 lbs. That means it trying to grapple a creature that is like 3 times that weight seems unlikely.
No, it really doesn't mean that. The key principle behind grappling is using your opponent's mass against them. Have you heard of Judo? :p
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.