Something thing that is crazy to me. The Thief is considered a bottom tier archetype. By simply permitting the ability to use fast hands as an attack, the Thief becomes a higher tier archetype and by that logic more playable. Fast Hand Sneak Attacking with two vials of acid at 5th level doesn't scale like casting Fireball or having Great Weapon Fighting and Great Weapon Master and attacking twice with a maul. It actually bothers me that the Rogue in 1st Edition was called the Thief and is now the lowest archetype in the Rogue class. I also think that Second Story work should act as the Monk ability Slow Fall at twice your level. This would simulate that the Rogue has skill but the Monk has training.
Unfortunately, many DMs don't allow Rogues to use Sneak Attack with vials of acid and similar items because the attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon, and such items are improvised weapons you make ranged attack with.
Unfortunately, many DMs don't allow Rogues to use Sneak Attack with vials of acid and similar items because the attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon, and such items are improvised weapons you make ranged attack with.
Improvised weapons are weapons. And:
Every weapon is classified as either melee or ranged. A melee weapon is used to attack a target within 5 feet of you, whereas a ranged weapon is used to attack a target at a distance.
Vials of Acid or Alchemist Fire make attacks at a distance. This would make them ranged weapons.
Also remember:
Often, an improvised weapon is similar to an actual weapon and can be treated as such.
Improvised weapons can something just be treated as weapons.
....
That said, can DMs prevent it? yes. of course. but they're well within the rules to allow it too.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Unfortunately, many DMs don't allow Rogues to use Sneak Attack with vials of acid and similar items because the attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon, and such items are improvised weapons you make ranged attack with.
Improvised weapons are weapons. And:
Every weapon is classified as either melee or ranged. A melee weapon is used to attack a target within 5 feet of you, whereas a ranged weapon is used to attack a target at a distance.
Vials of Acid or Alchemist Fire make attacks at a distance. This would make them ranged weapons.
Why are you spreading falsehoods?
All of these are weapons that make attacks at a distance but are not ranged weapons (you cited the rulebook, but you chose a part that contradicts other parts, and by quantity the other parts win):
Unfortunately, many DMs don't allow Rogues to use Sneak Attack with vials of acid and similar items because the attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon, and such items are improvised weapons you make ranged attack with.
Improvised weapons are weapons. And:
Every weapon is classified as either melee or ranged. A melee weapon is used to attack a target within 5 feet of you, whereas a ranged weapon is used to attack a target at a distance.
Vials of Acid or Alchemist Fire make attacks at a distance. This would make them ranged weapons.
All of these are weapons that make attacks at a distance but are not ranged weapons:
Those are indeed all melee weapons. Sorry if what I said somehow indicated otherwise. I made no mention of these weapons at all.
But, I'm curious, if your argument is that vial of acid and alchemists fire wouldn't be ranged weapons, despite all evidence to the contrary, that leaves: melee weapons.
I must assume that isn't what you're suggesting for obvious reasons. Care to elaborate?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Unfortunately, many DMs don't allow Rogues to use Sneak Attack with vials of acid and similar items because the attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon, and such items are improvised weapons you make ranged attack with.
Improvised weapons are weapons. And:
Every weapon is classified as either melee or ranged. A melee weapon is used to attack a target within 5 feet of you, whereas a ranged weapon is used to attack a target at a distance.
Vials of Acid or Alchemist Fire make attacks at a distance. This would make them ranged weapons.
All of these are weapons that make attacks at a distance but are not ranged weapons:
Those are indeed all melee weapons. Sorry if what I said somehow indicated otherwise. I made no mention of these weapons at all.
But, I'm curious, if your argument is that vial of acid and alchemists fire wouldn't be ranged weapons, despite all evidence to the contrary, that leaves: melee weapons.
I must assume that isn't what you're suggesting for obvious reasons. Care to elaborate?
I strongly suggest you reread the entries for acid (vial) and alchemist's fire (flask). For the sake of expediency, I'll post the relevant sentence below.
Make a ranged attack against a creature or object, treating the...as an improvised weapon.
If either were a ranged weapon, they would say so.
Every weapon is classified as either melee or ranged. A melee weapon is used to attack a target within 5 feet of you, whereas a ranged weapon is used to attack a target at a distance.
Vials of Acid or Alchemist Fire make attacks at a distance. This would make them ranged weapons.
Also remember:
Often, an improvised weapon is similar to an actual weapon and can be treated as such.
Improvised weapons can something just be treated as weapons.
The weapons in the chart that that paragraph is describing is anyway. Don't see "bottle/flask" or "imporvised thrown weapons" on that chart, so I don't think that rule helps this discussion.
Bottles/flasks are not similar to other weapons though, so that doesn't apply either. And I don't see anything in the improvised weapon rules that ever suggests that objects that bear no resemblance to weapons have any kind of weapon categorization. In fact, the improvised weapon rules don't even call such objects "weapons".
Bottles/flasks are not similar to other weapons though, so that doesn't apply either.
That's up to your DM to decide. RAW: the rule says it is DM discretion.
You can have your own opinion about how you'd rule it as a DM, but any other decision is equally as valid as yours.
So, it does apply.
And I don't see anything in the improvised weapon rules that ever suggests that objects that bear no resemblance to weapons have any kind of weapon categorization. In fact, the improvised weapon rules don't even call such objects "weapons".
A DM is free to treat anything as a wepon if they are inclined to do so.
Read the rules.
At the DM’s option, a character proficient with a weapon can use a similar object as if it were that weapon and use his or her proficiency bonus.
and
An improvised weapon includes any object you can wield in one or two hands, such as broken glass, a table leg, a frying pan, a wagon wheel, or a dead goblin.
The DM decides these things. Improvised Weapon rules lean heavily into the DM's ability to make calls for how things go. And anything you say to attempt to preempt that decision is entirely your own personal opinion about how you'd make a call, and not what the rules call for.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Unfortunately, many DMs don't allow Rogues to use Sneak Attack with vials of acid and similar items because the attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon, and such items are improvised weapons you make ranged attack with.
Improvised weapons are weapons. And:
Every weapon is classified as either melee or ranged. A melee weapon is used to attack a target within 5 feet of you, whereas a ranged weapon is used to attack a target at a distance.
Vials of Acid or Alchemist Fire make attacks at a distance. This would make them ranged weapons.
All of these are weapons that make attacks at a distance but are not ranged weapons:
Those are indeed all melee weapons. Sorry if what I said somehow indicated otherwise. I made no mention of these weapons at all.
But, I'm curious, if your argument is that vial of acid and alchemists fire wouldn't be ranged weapons, despite all evidence to the contrary, that leaves: melee weapons.
I must assume that isn't what you're suggesting for obvious reasons. Care to elaborate?
I strongly suggest you reread the entries for acid (vial) and alchemist's fire (flask). For the sake of expediency, I'll post the relevant sentence below.
Make a ranged attack against a creature or object, treating the...as an improvised weapon.
If either were a ranged weapon, they would say so.
It says to make a ranged attack, and has a range. Seems obvious what kind of weapon it is, and that ain't a melee weapon.
But, again, as an Improvised Weapon it falls entirely into DM purview. Claiming to know there is an objectively correct way to rule it is directly contrary to the RAW that the DM determines it.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
So I can fast hand the vial of acid to delicately dissolve the lock on the door I am next to but not the 8 foot tall monster next to me.
That makes a lot of sense.
No, on a fundamental level your implication is correct: you use the same rules (whatever they are) for attacking a creature and an object. There's no RAW basis at all for doing otherwise.
If you're somehow doing something with the acid that isn't attacking with it, then of course different rules might apply. But you attack both the same way.
Bottles/flasks are not similar to other weapons though, so that doesn't apply either.
That's up to your DM to decide. RAW: the rule says it is DM discretion.
You can have your own opinion about how you'd rule it as a DM, but any other decision is equally as valid as yours.
So, it does apply.
And I don't see anything in the improvised weapon rules that ever suggests that objects that bear no resemblance to weapons have any kind of weapon categorization. In fact, the improvised weapon rules don't even call such objects "weapons".
A DM is free to treat anything as a wepon if they are inclined to do so.
Read the rules.
At the DM’s option, a character proficient with a weapon can use a similar object as if it were that weapon and use his or her proficiency bonus.
and
An improvised weapon includes any object you can wield in one or two hands, such as broken glass, a table leg, a frying pan, a wagon wheel, or a dead goblin.
The DM decides these things. Improvised Weapon rules lean heavily into the DM's ability to make calls for how things go. And anything you say to attempt to preempt that decision is entirely your own personal opinion about how you'd make a call, and not what the rules call for.
So after returning a month later, your counter to "it isn't in the rules" is "the DM can decide it is"? K.
True. The RAW never calling an item a weapon doesn't mean a DM can't make their own rules, but we can't objectively discuss subjective rulings and house rules, so I guess the discussion is over.
Bottles/flasks are not similar to other weapons though, so that doesn't apply either.
That's up to your DM to decide. RAW: the rule says it is DM discretion.
You can have your own opinion about how you'd rule it as a DM, but any other decision is equally as valid as yours.
So, it does apply.
And I don't see anything in the improvised weapon rules that ever suggests that objects that bear no resemblance to weapons have any kind of weapon categorization. In fact, the improvised weapon rules don't even call such objects "weapons".
A DM is free to treat anything as a wepon if they are inclined to do so.
Read the rules.
At the DM’s option, a character proficient with a weapon can use a similar object as if it were that weapon and use his or her proficiency bonus.
and
An improvised weapon includes any object you can wield in one or two hands, such as broken glass, a table leg, a frying pan, a wagon wheel, or a dead goblin.
The DM decides these things. Improvised Weapon rules lean heavily into the DM's ability to make calls for how things go. And anything you say to attempt to preempt that decision is entirely your own personal opinion about how you'd make a call, and not what the rules call for.
So after returning a month later, your counter to "it isn't in the rules" is "the DM can decide it is"? K.
True. The RAW never calling an item a weapon doesn't mean a DM can't make their own rules, but we can't objectively discuss subjective rulings and house rules, so I guess the discussion is over.
You can discuss whatever you like.
Alls I said, and will continue to defend, is that a rogue can indeed use sneak attack with ranged flasks if the DM treats these improvised weapons as ranged weapons, which he can do while still it being RAW.
Attack that comment from any angle you want it remains true.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Alls I said, and will continue to defend, is that a rogue can indeed use sneak attack with ranged flasks if the DM treats these improvised weapons as ranged weapons, which he can do while still it being RAW.
Attack that comment from any angle you want it remains true.
That's true, but only if you use a version of the RAW that has numerous other consequences. In particular, you'll need to contradict the SAC, and throwing the SAC in the garbage severely undercuts a significant amount of other RAW as well, because we rely on the SAC for a bunch of really important rules like the definition of "melee weapon attack".
Alls I said, and will continue to defend, is that a rogue can indeed use sneak attack with ranged flasks if the DM treats these improvised weapons as ranged weapons, which he can do while still it being RAW.
Attack that comment from any angle you want it remains true.
You're entitled to rule it however you like. And if that means allowing for Sneak Attack, then fine. Having said that, just because you can make a ranged attack with an improvised weapon doesn't mean it's now a ranged weapon. My cleric can make a ranged attack by throwing their handaxe, but it's still a melee weapon because it belongs to that category of weapons.
The RAW is clear; which is to say Sneak Attack isn't compatible with the aforementioned flasks and vials.
So I can fast hand the vial of acid to delicately dissolve the lock on the door I am next to but not the 8 foot tall monster next to me.
That makes a lot of sense.
No one has said your character cannot make a ranged attack against an opponent within 5 feet of them. They would just follow the normal rules for such attacks, which means attacking at disadvantage. No different than attacking with a net, really.
Alls I said, and will continue to defend, is that a rogue can indeed use sneak attack with ranged flasks if the DM treats these improvised weapons as ranged weapons, which he can do while still it being RAW.
Attack that comment from any angle you want it remains true.
You're entitled to rule it however you like. And if that means allowing for Sneak Attack, then fine. Having said that, just because you can make a ranged attack with an improvised weapon doesn't mean it's now a ranged weapon. My cleric can make a ranged attack by throwing their handaxe, but it's still a melee weapon because it belongs to that category of weapons.
Improvised weapons aren't inherently classified as melee weapons. The DM can call them whichever one he wants to.
The RAW is clear; which is to say Sneak Attack isn't compatible with the aforementioned flasks and vials.
The RAW is clear, yes. The DM decides.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Alls I said, and will continue to defend, is that a rogue can indeed use sneak attack with ranged flasks if the DM treats these improvised weapons as ranged weapons, which he can do while still it being RAW.
Attack that comment from any angle you want it remains true.
That's true, but only if you use a version of the RAW that has numerous other consequences. In particular, you'll need to contradict the SAC, and throwing the SAC in the garbage severely undercuts a significant amount of other RAW as well, because we rely on the SAC for a bunch of really important rules like the definition of "melee weapon attack".
What are you talking about? The SAC doesn't talk about this whatsoever.
You've simply assumed, without merit, that an improvised weapon defaults to being a melee weapon despite nothing in the rules saying that.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
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Two daggers are light weapons. Anyone can throw two daggers. One as an action with damage modifiers, a second one without damage modifiers.
Something thing that is crazy to me. The Thief is considered a bottom tier archetype. By simply permitting the ability to use fast hands as an attack, the Thief becomes a higher tier archetype and by that logic more playable. Fast Hand Sneak Attacking with two vials of acid at 5th level doesn't scale like casting Fireball or having Great Weapon Fighting and Great Weapon Master and attacking twice with a maul. It actually bothers me that the Rogue in 1st Edition was called the Thief and is now the lowest archetype in the Rogue class. I also think that Second Story work should act as the Monk ability Slow Fall at twice your level. This would simulate that the Rogue has skill but the Monk has training.
Unfortunately, many DMs don't allow Rogues to use Sneak Attack with vials of acid and similar items because the attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon, and such items are improvised weapons you make ranged attack with.
Yes the attack is part of the action, not an action on itself
Improvised weapons are weapons. And:
Vials of Acid or Alchemist Fire make attacks at a distance. This would make them ranged weapons.
Also remember:
Improvised weapons can something just be treated as weapons.
....
That said, can DMs prevent it? yes. of course. but they're well within the rules to allow it too.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Why are you spreading falsehoods?
All of these are weapons that make attacks at a distance but are not ranged weapons (you cited the rulebook, but you chose a part that contradicts other parts, and by quantity the other parts win):
Those are indeed all melee weapons. Sorry if what I said somehow indicated otherwise. I made no mention of these weapons at all.
But, I'm curious, if your argument is that vial of acid and alchemists fire wouldn't be ranged weapons, despite all evidence to the contrary, that leaves: melee weapons.
I must assume that isn't what you're suggesting for obvious reasons. Care to elaborate?
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I strongly suggest you reread the entries for acid (vial) and alchemist's fire (flask). For the sake of expediency, I'll post the relevant sentence below.
If either were a ranged weapon, they would say so.
The weapons in the chart that that paragraph is describing is anyway. Don't see "bottle/flask" or "imporvised thrown weapons" on that chart, so I don't think that rule helps this discussion.
Bottles/flasks are not similar to other weapons though, so that doesn't apply either. And I don't see anything in the improvised weapon rules that ever suggests that objects that bear no resemblance to weapons have any kind of weapon categorization. In fact, the improvised weapon rules don't even call such objects "weapons".
So I can fast hand the vial of acid to delicately dissolve the lock on the door I am next to but not the 8 foot tall monster next to me.
That makes a lot of sense.
That's up to your DM to decide. RAW: the rule says it is DM discretion.
You can have your own opinion about how you'd rule it as a DM, but any other decision is equally as valid as yours.
So, it does apply.
A DM is free to treat anything as a wepon if they are inclined to do so.
Read the rules.
and
The DM decides these things. Improvised Weapon rules lean heavily into the DM's ability to make calls for how things go. And anything you say to attempt to preempt that decision is entirely your own personal opinion about how you'd make a call, and not what the rules call for.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
It says to make a ranged attack, and has a range. Seems obvious what kind of weapon it is, and that ain't a melee weapon.
But, again, as an Improvised Weapon it falls entirely into DM purview. Claiming to know there is an objectively correct way to rule it is directly contrary to the RAW that the DM determines it.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
No, on a fundamental level your implication is correct: you use the same rules (whatever they are) for attacking a creature and an object. There's no RAW basis at all for doing otherwise.
If you're somehow doing something with the acid that isn't attacking with it, then of course different rules might apply. But you attack both the same way.
So after returning a month later, your counter to "it isn't in the rules" is "the DM can decide it is"? K.
True. The RAW never calling an item a weapon doesn't mean a DM can't make their own rules, but we can't objectively discuss subjective rulings and house rules, so I guess the discussion is over.
You can discuss whatever you like.
Alls I said, and will continue to defend, is that a rogue can indeed use sneak attack with ranged flasks if the DM treats these improvised weapons as ranged weapons, which he can do while still it being RAW.
Attack that comment from any angle you want it remains true.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
That's true, but only if you use a version of the RAW that has numerous other consequences. In particular, you'll need to contradict the SAC, and throwing the SAC in the garbage severely undercuts a significant amount of other RAW as well, because we rely on the SAC for a bunch of really important rules like the definition of "melee weapon attack".
You're entitled to rule it however you like. And if that means allowing for Sneak Attack, then fine. Having said that, just because you can make a ranged attack with an improvised weapon doesn't mean it's now a ranged weapon. My cleric can make a ranged attack by throwing their handaxe, but it's still a melee weapon because it belongs to that category of weapons.
The RAW is clear; which is to say Sneak Attack isn't compatible with the aforementioned flasks and vials.
No one has said your character cannot make a ranged attack against an opponent within 5 feet of them. They would just follow the normal rules for such attacks, which means attacking at disadvantage. No different than attacking with a net, really.
Improvised weapons aren't inherently classified as melee weapons. The DM can call them whichever one he wants to.
The RAW is clear, yes. The DM decides.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
What are you talking about? The SAC doesn't talk about this whatsoever.
You've simply assumed, without merit, that an improvised weapon defaults to being a melee weapon despite nothing in the rules saying that.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.