So, again, You are permitted to benefit from your elf racial ability to cast a spell as a rat?
Wild shape asks you to put away your physical stats and use the beasts, just like it tells you that you cannot cast spells. Again, you retain the bonus to you strength, even if you can't use it. Applying it again would be exactly that: double dipping.
Bees, you've asked and been answered on that a couple times now, but I'll give it a shot one more time: no, the rat cannot cast spells. Does the rat have the Spellcasting feature, as a retained class, race, and other feature? Yes. Are they generally permitted to benefit from their features? Yes, so if there's a magical orb or something that does damage when you touch it if you aren't a Spellcaster, the rat is fine! But there is a bullet point which specifically provides that even if you have the Spellcasting feature, you nevertheless can't cast spells. So, you can't. Just like how you have retained your weapon proficiencies, but can't use weapons, because it says so. And you've retained your languages, but you can't speak, because it says so.
Nothing in the Wild Shape description says you can't increase your Beast's physical ability scores with your class, race, and other features. Very early on, I addressed that that sentence is the missing errata which would bring Wild Shape in line with your camp's interpretation. But it isn't there, so you can.
I would also note down that I took an ASI at that level. However, I would still say that it had been applied, it is not a continuous effect but a one time, permanent increase to your stat.
"When you reach 4th level, and again at 8th, 12th, 16th, and 19th level, you can increase one ability score of your choice by 2, or you can increase two ability scores of your choice by 1."
You can increase. Not you get a bonus or a modifier to your score. That stat is permanently increased by that amount as a one off at leveling.
Now, as for the DDB character sheet, I would code it that way too. I think most people using pen and paper would just erase the old score and write in the new one.
I'll also mention again the common sense argument: your strength has increased because you have been using and training your body and built up muscles. When you wild shape, you no longer have that body or those muscles, you have the body of the beast you shaped into. It is just silly to think that the rat body you assume has bulging biceps just because you do.
You say it's permanently increased. I'd say it's permanently being increased. I wouldn't say that the plain language requires one vs. the other, but the fact that the ASI is an enduring entry under your class features is a pretty persuasive argument towards reading it my way.
I would also note down that I took an ASI at that level. However, I would still say that it had been applied, it is not a continuous effect but a one time, permanent increase to your stat.
"When you reach 4th level, and again at 8th, 12th, 16th, and 19th level, you can increase one ability score of your choice by 2, or you can increase two ability scores of your choice by 1."
You can increase. Not you get a bonus or a modifier to your score. That stat is permanently increased by that amount as a one off at leveling.
Now, as for the DDB character sheet, I would code it that way too. I think most people using pen and paper would just erase the old score and write in the new one.
I'll also mention again the common sense argument: your strength has increased because you have been using and training your body and built up muscles. When you wild shape, you no longer have that body or those muscles, you have the body of the beast you shaped into. It is just silly to think that the rat body you assume has bulging biceps just because you do.
You say it's permanently increased. I'd say it's permanently being increased. I wouldn't say that the plain language requires one vs. the other, but the fact that the ASI is an enduring entry under your class features is a pretty persuasive argument towards reading it my way.
No, that last part is garbo. It doesn't mean anything. The argument isn't that "it is not a class feature", its that "the class feature doesn't provide a bonus."
The fact that you choose it at level up and is not called a bonus (such as the AC bonus that a shield provides) indicates that it isn't a bonus.
The "when you reach X level" language in Ability Score Increase is not unique to the Ability Score Increase feature. See also the Circle of Land's 10th level Nature's Ward:
Nature’s Ward
When you reach 10th level, you can’t be charmed or frightened by elementals or fey, and you are immune to poison and disease.
Would a reasonable reader interpret that to mean "when you reach 10th level you can't be charmed or frightened, but then it's over with and not an ongoing class feature, and in the future you can be charmed or frightened"? Or "when in humanoid form you can't be charmed or frightened, but when in beast form you don't have that benefit, because your humanoid form already received that one-time benefit"? That's what I'm hearing, when you describe ASI being something that "happened" at a prior level but is no longer a live feature on your character sheet.
Are you under the impression that "a bonus" (as opposed to, "a modifier," "an increase," etc.) is a defined term in 5E with rule significance? Where do you find that description, and what significance do you ascribe to that distinction, if any? Are you looking to DMG Chapter 8, or...?
I am asking you to provide justification from the text of the rules that indicates that your interpretation that an ASI would continue to function while, say wild shaped or under the effects of a feeblemind, or wearing a headband of intellect or a belt of giant strength. ANY justification that would work besides the fact that "its a class feature."
Note that each of these tell you to replace statistics and none of them tells you that you should lose any class features (although only one affirms that you retain them while at the same time limiting how you might use them).
I am asking you to provide justification from the text of the rules that indicates that your interpretation that an ASI would continue to function while, say wild shaped or under the effects of a feeblemind, or wearing a headband of intellect or a belt of giant strength. ANY justification that would work besides the fact that "its a class feature."
Note that each of these tell you to replace statistics and none of them tells you that you should lose any class features (although only one affirms that you retain them while at the same time limiting how you might use them).
Nice that you are completely ignoring the fact I pointed out the difference between said headband or belt and wildshape. Those items override wildshape's stats too. Therefore they are different.
I respectfully think this is bunk, and it has already been debunked by someone else, thankfully.
A rule that tells you to replace a stat is exactly that: a rule that tells you to replace a stat. They are equivalent for this discussion (when considered on their own). And again, any indication other than "ITSA CKLASS FEATURAE DUH" would work. For any of them.
Ok, so, if you wear the gauntlets of ogre power, "Your Strength score is 19 while you wear these gauntlets"
If the ASI is a continuous bonus and you have taken at least a +1 to Str, your interpretation would indicate that your overall effective strength score should be taken as 20. Is this how you would play?
Okay, want a belabored and detailed explanation for why ASI (like every other class and race feature) are ongoing functions, rather than one-time math?
1: Occam's Razor
The most straightforward way to phrase my position: "An Ability Score Increase increases one ability score of your choice"
The most straightforward way to phrase your position: "An Ability Score Increase provides a one-time increase to one ability score of your choice, but no increase to that score in the event that that score is replaced by a new score."
The text of the ability: "When you reach 4th level... you can increase one ability score of your choice..."
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
2: "Features" in general are ongoing, constantly-applying benefits of your character
This to some extent is obvious: if you gain a feature at level 1, you don't lose it when you're no longer level 1, it continues to be a part of your character. But if you need that spelled out:
Your race also increases one or more of your ability scores, which you determine in step 3. Note these increases and remember to apply them later.
"Increases" is present indicative tense. "Apply them" is ongoing.
Your character receives a number of benefits from your choice of class. Many of these benefits are class features — capabilities (including spellcasting) that set your character apart from members of other classes.
Class features are "capabilities," not past accomplishments. Again, these features "set your character apart" in an ongoing tense.
On your character sheet, record all the features that your class gives you at 1st level.
"Gives you," not "has given you" or "gave you." Class features are ongoing, and you continue to benefit from them, not just at the time they are unlocked.
When your character gains a level, his or her class often grants additional features, as detailed in the class description. Some of these features allow you to increase your ability scores, either increasing two scores by 1 each or increasing one score by 2.
"Increasing", "features allow you to increase." Verb tense on these again describes a feature providing an ongoing increase, not a one time increase which is done and over with.
Each class entry in this chapter includes a table summarizing the benefits you gain at every level, and a detailed explanation of each one.
Features are described as "benefits you gain at every level." No class, nor the introduction, ever introduces the concept of a feature/benefit you lose, or which you only gain temporarily in one level but lose in later levels.
I could go on, but this is already dragging, and you get the idea. Class Features are, in general, benefits you gain that provide an enduring benefit to your character. ASI are a class feature. Absent any language telling you that ASI are NOT an enduring benefit, they should be treated the same as every other feature, providing benefits now and in the future, as long as they are retained.
3. It's a distinction without a difference anyway
We're getting into some real Quine "what's the meaning of rabbit?" territory with all this talk of ASI being a lasting feature that either has provided a +2 increase but provides no current increase, vs. ASI being a lasting feature that provides a +2 increase. Either way, in every context OTHER than Wild Shape, your Constitution is +2 above what it would be if you hadn't taken the feat. ASI doesn't dive into belaboring one interpretation over another. Wild Shape provides no language telling you how to interpret your retained +2 Constitution ASI. What does increase "really" mean? Well, it means whatever it's useful for it to mean.
I don't think it's useful to consider an ASI to have given a past increase which is no longer live. I write "Druid 4: ASI +2 Con" on my character sheet next to every other feature providing an ongoing benefit, and its useful to treat that +2 Con as the same ongoing benefit. It's reasonable too; like I suggested a few posts further up... what if your DM lets you retrain feats? What if you get Wished or cursed to a lower level, and lose the class level that provided that ASI? Would it really be realistic to argue to your DM "you can take away that ASI, but it already increased my score so it doesn't matter!" Or, Wished or Reincarnated to change yourself from a Yuan Ti to a Half Orc... are you keeping your "past" Yuan-Ti mental ability score increases because they "already happened," and aren't a present and ongoing race feature that's being replaced by your new Half Orc ASI? No, it's not a reasonable position that any player would take.
Bending over backwords to assume an unwritten "it already happened, and provides no future increase!" limitation on ASI is complicated linquistically (see 1), treats ASI differently from all other class features without any text suggesting you should do so (see 2), and doesn't seem useful/reasonable in any other context you're likely to interact with an ASI (see 3). Just about the ONLY use that such an interpretation gives you, is to nerf Wild Shape...
It would take one sentence of erratain Wild Shape to make your desired restriction explicit ("Your Beast's physical ability scores cannot be improved by your race, class, or other features."), but it takes pages and pages of interpretation of unwritten rules in multiple chapters to provide that rule in the currently published PHB. I'm willing to accept that there might occasionally be an unwritten assumption in the PHB, when making it explicit would have required a wasteful amount of space, but... come on. This rule COULD have been printed very simply, but wasn't? Wild Shape printed a similar exception for senses, but didn't for ability scores? After 6 years of having the chance to do so? Come onnnnn
Ok, if it is an ongoing increase, then a character which has had any ASI of at least 1 from either class or race would have a strength of 20 if he put on the gauntlets of ogre strength. The same for intelligence with headband of intellect.
Score and stat are identical in meaning here. If you can apply increases to your wild shaped form, you can apply them on top of these items. There is no reason for them to say that your class features are maintained for them, because they obviously are as you are not changing form.
Ok, so, if you wear the gauntlets of ogre power, "Your Strength score is 19 while you wear these gauntlets"
If the ASI is a continuous bonus and you have taken at least a +1 to Str, your interpretation would indicate that your overall effective strength score should be taken as 20. Is this how you would play?
No. "Your Strength score is 19." Features and abilities worded that way do not allow further modification in either direction. That is not what Wild Shape purports to do.
Your Strength score is 19 while you wear these gauntlets. They have no effect on you if your Strength is 19 or higher without them.
vs.
Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast..
No similar language to be found there, apples and oranges.
Ok, so, if you wear the gauntlets of ogre power, "Your Strength score is 19 while you wear these gauntlets"
If the ASI is a continuous bonus and you have taken at least a +1 to Str, your interpretation would indicate that your overall effective strength score should be taken as 20. Is this how you would play?
No. "Your Strength score is 19." Features and abilities worded that way do not allow further modification in either direction. That is not what Wild Shape purports to do.
Your Strength score is 19 while you wear these gauntlets. They have no effect on you if your Strength is 19 or higher without them.
vs.
Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast..
No similar language to be found there, apples and oranges.
So the gauntlets indicate that they turn off your ASIs or other class features? Or are you inventing unwritten language?
Your game statistics are your scores. It's just another name for exactly the same thing!
If you don't understand the inaccuracy of what you just wrote, please go back to Post #75, or just read DMG Chapter 9 and the MM Intro directly.
That aside, magical effects that say "your [whatever] is [X] while you [something]" are a specific magical effect, that is very widely understood to not permit further modification from other modifiers. I don't want to dive into the textual support for reading the Gauntlets and other items that way, go read or start another thread on that and we can hash it out... but suffice to say, it's off topic, because that language isn't used anywhere in Wild Shape, and I also don't think you're really committed to all the other rippling side effects that reading it to have the same limitation would have anyway.
Wildshape asks you to replace some "game statistics", which include your physical ability scores. These items/abilities ask for the same treatment. As i noted above, none indicates that ASIs should be turned off, only one affirms that they're not (along with providing some additional caveats). If you cannot answer the question, don't just sweep it under the rug.
This thread is long enough, without moving goal posts. The short answer is, magical effects like Gauntlets of Ogre Power state that your strength "is" 19. If you applied a bonus on top of that, but were still wearing the gauntlets, your strength would again become 19, because you're still wearing gauntlets, so your strength still "is" 19. There isn't text in the PHB which spells that out, it kind of relies on a plain language and logical reading of "is." For those that care, that interpretation is supported by the Sage Advice Compendium as well. There's also some other wording that does something similar, like in Barkskin, which sets a value that your AC "can't be less than". AC works differently than ability scores though, the reason that 16 isn't your new Base AC to add your Dexterity modifier onto is functionally/logically different than why you can't add a +1 modifier to your Strength which "is" 19.
"Replacing" your statistics (all your statistics, not just your ability scores) with different statistics is not the same as saying that those values have to remain at a locked value. You have the beast's statistics, but you also benefit from your class features.... do you really think that the Tiger's speed "is" set to 40 feet, and can't benefit from bonus movement speed from Barbarian levels? Or that the Tiger's damage with a bite "is" 1d10+3, and can't benefit from a spell like Enlarge/Reduce that adjusts that damage?
I don't think you really think that, I think you're just being contrary and exercising "diversionary tactics." But, if you ARE interested in why RAW you don't add your Half Orc ability score increase on top of Gauntlets of Ogre Power, go start a thread about it. Suffice to say, I'm not interested in arguing about that in this thread, it doesn't really have much to do with anything anyone else is saying in this thread either (it's not all about me :) ), and there's no clear language in Wild Shape that puts it at issue as anything more than a diversionary "slippery slope" argument.
Chicken_Champ, it is obvious that we disagree, and that I have a variety of points on my side, not the least of which is the language of the ability. Your description of the difference between items and this feature is all down to your interpretation and that is all. I am done adding to this.
Kotath, if you aren't going to follow along, your contributions won't make sense. There was a question that was dodged from my previous post.
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Bees, you've asked and been answered on that a couple times now, but I'll give it a shot one more time: no, the rat cannot cast spells. Does the rat have the Spellcasting feature, as a retained class, race, and other feature? Yes. Are they generally permitted to benefit from their features? Yes, so if there's a magical orb or something that does damage when you touch it if you aren't a Spellcaster, the rat is fine! But there is a bullet point which specifically provides that even if you have the Spellcasting feature, you nevertheless can't cast spells. So, you can't. Just like how you have retained your weapon proficiencies, but can't use weapons, because it says so. And you've retained your languages, but you can't speak, because it says so.
Nothing in the Wild Shape description says you can't increase your Beast's physical ability scores with your class, race, and other features. Very early on, I addressed that that sentence is the missing errata which would bring Wild Shape in line with your camp's interpretation. But it isn't there, so you can.
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You say it's permanently increased. I'd say it's permanently being increased. I wouldn't say that the plain language requires one vs. the other, but the fact that the ASI is an enduring entry under your class features is a pretty persuasive argument towards reading it my way.
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Does an ASI in strength continue to apply to your regular caster form when you are wildshaped?
No, that last part is garbo. It doesn't mean anything. The argument isn't that "it is not a class feature", its that "the class feature doesn't provide a bonus."
The fact that you choose it at level up and is not called a bonus (such as the AC bonus that a shield provides) indicates that it isn't a bonus.
The "when you reach X level" language in Ability Score Increase is not unique to the Ability Score Increase feature. See also the Circle of Land's 10th level Nature's Ward:
Would a reasonable reader interpret that to mean "when you reach 10th level you can't be charmed or frightened, but then it's over with and not an ongoing class feature, and in the future you can be charmed or frightened"? Or "when in humanoid form you can't be charmed or frightened, but when in beast form you don't have that benefit, because your humanoid form already received that one-time benefit"? That's what I'm hearing, when you describe ASI being something that "happened" at a prior level but is no longer a live feature on your character sheet.
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Where. IS. ASI. DESCRIBED. AS. A. BONUS?!?
Are you under the impression that "a bonus" (as opposed to, "a modifier," "an increase," etc.) is a defined term in 5E with rule significance? Where do you find that description, and what significance do you ascribe to that distinction, if any? Are you looking to DMG Chapter 8, or...?
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I am asking you to provide justification from the text of the rules that indicates that your interpretation that an ASI would continue to function while, say wild shaped or under the effects of a feeblemind, or wearing a headband of intellect or a belt of giant strength. ANY justification that would work besides the fact that "its a class feature."
Note that each of these tell you to replace statistics and none of them tells you that you should lose any class features (although only one affirms that you retain them while at the same time limiting how you might use them).
I respectfully think this is bunk, and it has already been debunked by someone else, thankfully.
A rule that tells you to replace a stat is exactly that: a rule that tells you to replace a stat. They are equivalent for this discussion (when considered on their own). And again, any indication other than "ITSA CKLASS FEATURAE DUH" would work. For any of them.
Ok, so, if you wear the gauntlets of ogre power, "Your Strength score is 19 while you wear these gauntlets"
If the ASI is a continuous bonus and you have taken at least a +1 to Str, your interpretation would indicate that your overall effective strength score should be taken as 20. Is this how you would play?
Okay, want a belabored and detailed explanation for why ASI (like every other class and race feature) are ongoing functions, rather than one-time math?
1: Occam's Razor
The most straightforward way to phrase my position: "An Ability Score Increase increases one ability score of your choice"
The most straightforward way to phrase your position: "An Ability Score Increase provides a one-time increase to one ability score of your choice, but no increase to that score in the event that that score is replaced by a new score."
The text of the ability: "When you reach 4th level... you can increase one ability score of your choice..."
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
2: "Features" in general are ongoing, constantly-applying benefits of your character
This to some extent is obvious: if you gain a feature at level 1, you don't lose it when you're no longer level 1, it continues to be a part of your character. But if you need that spelled out:
PHB Chapter 1, Step-by-step Characters:
"Increases" is present indicative tense. "Apply them" is ongoing.
Class features are "capabilities," not past accomplishments. Again, these features "set your character apart" in an ongoing tense.
"Gives you," not "has given you" or "gave you." Class features are ongoing, and you continue to benefit from them, not just at the time they are unlocked.
"Increasing", "features allow you to increase." Verb tense on these again describes a feature providing an ongoing increase, not a one time increase which is done and over with.
PHB Chapter 2, Races
"Increases", ongoing.
PHB Chapter 3, Classes
Features are described as "benefits you gain at every level." No class, nor the introduction, ever introduces the concept of a feature/benefit you lose, or which you only gain temporarily in one level but lose in later levels.
I could go on, but this is already dragging, and you get the idea. Class Features are, in general, benefits you gain that provide an enduring benefit to your character. ASI are a class feature. Absent any language telling you that ASI are NOT an enduring benefit, they should be treated the same as every other feature, providing benefits now and in the future, as long as they are retained.
3. It's a distinction without a difference anyway
We're getting into some real Quine "what's the meaning of rabbit?" territory with all this talk of ASI being a lasting feature that either has provided a +2 increase but provides no current increase, vs. ASI being a lasting feature that provides a +2 increase. Either way, in every context OTHER than Wild Shape, your Constitution is +2 above what it would be if you hadn't taken the feat. ASI doesn't dive into belaboring one interpretation over another. Wild Shape provides no language telling you how to interpret your retained +2 Constitution ASI. What does increase "really" mean? Well, it means whatever it's useful for it to mean.
I don't think it's useful to consider an ASI to have given a past increase which is no longer live. I write "Druid 4: ASI +2 Con" on my character sheet next to every other feature providing an ongoing benefit, and its useful to treat that +2 Con as the same ongoing benefit. It's reasonable too; like I suggested a few posts further up... what if your DM lets you retrain feats? What if you get Wished or cursed to a lower level, and lose the class level that provided that ASI? Would it really be realistic to argue to your DM "you can take away that ASI, but it already increased my score so it doesn't matter!" Or, Wished or Reincarnated to change yourself from a Yuan Ti to a Half Orc... are you keeping your "past" Yuan-Ti mental ability score increases because they "already happened," and aren't a present and ongoing race feature that's being replaced by your new Half Orc ASI? No, it's not a reasonable position that any player would take.
Bending over backwords to assume an unwritten "it already happened, and provides no future increase!" limitation on ASI is complicated linquistically (see 1), treats ASI differently from all other class features without any text suggesting you should do so (see 2), and doesn't seem useful/reasonable in any other context you're likely to interact with an ASI (see 3). Just about the ONLY use that such an interpretation gives you, is to nerf Wild Shape...
It would take one sentence of errata in Wild Shape to make your desired restriction explicit ("Your Beast's physical ability scores cannot be improved by your race, class, or other features."), but it takes pages and pages of interpretation of unwritten rules in multiple chapters to provide that rule in the currently published PHB. I'm willing to accept that there might occasionally be an unwritten assumption in the PHB, when making it explicit would have required a wasteful amount of space, but... come on. This rule COULD have been printed very simply, but wasn't? Wild Shape printed a similar exception for senses, but didn't for ability scores? After 6 years of having the chance to do so? Come onnnnn
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Ok, if it is an ongoing increase, then a character which has had any ASI of at least 1 from either class or race would have a strength of 20 if he put on the gauntlets of ogre strength. The same for intelligence with headband of intellect.
Score and stat are identical in meaning here. If you can apply increases to your wild shaped form, you can apply them on top of these items. There is no reason for them to say that your class features are maintained for them, because they obviously are as you are not changing form.
No. "Your Strength score is 19." Features and abilities worded that way do not allow further modification in either direction. That is not what Wild Shape purports to do.
vs.
No similar language to be found there, apples and oranges.
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So the gauntlets indicate that they turn off your ASIs or other class features? Or are you inventing unwritten language?
Your game statistics are your scores. It's just another name for exactly the same thing!
If you don't understand the inaccuracy of what you just wrote, please go back to Post #75, or just read DMG Chapter 9 and the MM Intro directly.
That aside, magical effects that say "your [whatever] is [X] while you [something]" are a specific magical effect, that is very widely understood to not permit further modification from other modifiers. I don't want to dive into the textual support for reading the Gauntlets and other items that way, go read or start another thread on that and we can hash it out... but suffice to say, it's off topic, because that language isn't used anywhere in Wild Shape, and I also don't think you're really committed to all the other rippling side effects that reading it to have the same limitation would have anyway.
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The diversionary tactics are wild here.
Wildshape asks you to replace some "game statistics", which include your physical ability scores. These items/abilities ask for the same treatment. As i noted above, none indicates that ASIs should be turned off, only one affirms that they're not (along with providing some additional caveats). If you cannot answer the question, don't just sweep it under the rug.
This thread is long enough, without moving goal posts. The short answer is, magical effects like Gauntlets of Ogre Power state that your strength "is" 19. If you applied a bonus on top of that, but were still wearing the gauntlets, your strength would again become 19, because you're still wearing gauntlets, so your strength still "is" 19. There isn't text in the PHB which spells that out, it kind of relies on a plain language and logical reading of "is." For those that care, that interpretation is supported by the Sage Advice Compendium as well. There's also some other wording that does something similar, like in Barkskin, which sets a value that your AC "can't be less than". AC works differently than ability scores though, the reason that 16 isn't your new Base AC to add your Dexterity modifier onto is functionally/logically different than why you can't add a +1 modifier to your Strength which "is" 19.
"Replacing" your statistics (all your statistics, not just your ability scores) with different statistics is not the same as saying that those values have to remain at a locked value. You have the beast's statistics, but you also benefit from your class features.... do you really think that the Tiger's speed "is" set to 40 feet, and can't benefit from bonus movement speed from Barbarian levels? Or that the Tiger's damage with a bite "is" 1d10+3, and can't benefit from a spell like Enlarge/Reduce that adjusts that damage?
I don't think you really think that, I think you're just being contrary and exercising "diversionary tactics." But, if you ARE interested in why RAW you don't add your Half Orc ability score increase on top of Gauntlets of Ogre Power, go start a thread about it. Suffice to say, I'm not interested in arguing about that in this thread, it doesn't really have much to do with anything anyone else is saying in this thread either (it's not all about me :) ), and there's no clear language in Wild Shape that puts it at issue as anything more than a diversionary "slippery slope" argument.
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Chicken_Champ, it is obvious that we disagree, and that I have a variety of points on my side, not the least of which is the language of the ability. Your description of the difference between items and this feature is all down to your interpretation and that is all. I am done adding to this.
Kotath, if you aren't going to follow along, your contributions won't make sense. There was a question that was dodged from my previous post.