Let's flip offense and defense for a bit: Can you provide me an example of (one each, please) a class feature and a race feature that DOES survive Wild Shape, since you're so adamant that feats/ASI modifiying ability scores, hit points, (and I'm sure a laundry list of other things as well) do not? Unless Wild Shape is packed full of empty language, what's the magic words that a feature must satisfy in your eyes to pass your unwritten extra gatekeeping?
Let's flip offense and defense for a bit: Can you provide me an example of (one each, please) a class feature and a race feature that DOES survive Wild Shape, since you're so adamant that feats/ASI modifiying ability scores, hit points, (and I'm sure a laundry list of other things as well) do not? Unless Wild Shape is packed full of empty language, what's the magic words that a feature must satisfy in your eyes to pass your unwritten extra gatekeeping?
Anything that does not get replaced by text in wildshape. For example, an ASI in wisdom, because wisdom is not replaced by a stat from the beast.
Or, for example, any feature that grants you the ability to do something that is not prevented by your new anatomy or other limitations. For example, every other part of the athlete feat besides the bonus to a physical stat. The physical stat does not carry over, because the feat is what allows you to write 13 instead of 12 on your character sheet, but that whole number is replaced.
That's where the "what's a class feature?" fuzzy line becomes an issue, yes, because if Hit Dice are a "class feature" (as opposed to, a "class [term not defined]") that would indeed set us up for a real problem. But luckily, we aren't having every debate about every aspect of Wild Shape right now, just whether 1) ASI/Feats are class features, and 2) since they are, why on earth would you not benefit from them while Wild Shaped?
It's an order of evaluation issue: do you modify stats for ASIs and then apply wildshape (overwriting it) or apply wildshape first. Given that wildshape breaks all sorts of rules for attributes (for example, it's perfectly legal to wildshape into a Mammoth and have Strength 24) I'm inclined to say that wildshape is applied after ASIs.
It's an order of evaluation issue: do you modify stats for ASIs and then apply wildshape (overwriting it) or apply wildshape first. Given that wildshape breaks all sorts of rules for attributes (for example, it's perfectly legal to wildshape into a Mammoth and have Strength 24) I'm inclined to say that wildshape is applied after ASIs.
There's no rule about having a Strength over 20; instead, there's a rule that you can't use an ASI to increase Strength over 20. I think last time we had this conversation someone helped point that out for me, so if you have a legal +2 ASI on the books while humanoid, WIld Shaping into a mammoth won't give you a Strength of 26.
Let's flip offense and defense for a bit: Can you provide me an example of (one each, please) a class feature and a race feature that DOES survive Wild Shape, since you're so adamant that feats/ASI modifiying ability scores, hit points, (and I'm sure a laundry list of other things as well) do not? Unless Wild Shape is packed full of empty language, what's the magic words that a feature must satisfy in your eyes to pass your unwritten extra gatekeeping?
Anything that does not get replaced by text in wildshape. For example, an ASI in wisdom, because wisdom is not replaced by a stat from the beast.
Or, for example, any feature that grants you the ability to do something that is not prevented by your new anatomy or other limitations. For example, every other part of the athlete feat besides the bonus to a physical stat. The physical stat does not carry over, because the feat is what allows you to write 13 instead of 12 on your character sheet, but that whole number is replaced.
That +2 Wisdom answer is either a cop out answer, or an excellent illustration of how empty your interpretation leaves Wild Shape. Wild Shape already tells you to keep your character's Wisdom, Intelligence, and Charisma explicitly, so if the only meaning of class features, then it is indeed empty language.
And chopping Athlete in half, so it provides half its benefit to you and not the other... well, that just fails the plain language test, so I rest my case there. Nothing in Wild Shape tells you to do that.
Doubt I'll change your mind on that with any amount of arguments, but to anyone else reading along, I hope that helps draw the lines around the two camps to help show that mine is not actually quite the extreme interpretation it is being made out to be!
"ASI: +2 Con" is not an ability score. It is a class feature which modifies your ability score, whatever your ability score happens to be in your current form.
That is where your wrong. It isn't a +2 bonus to con. That is why you've been getting this wrong this whole time? You think an ASI gives you a bonus to con instead of changing its value?
I didn't say +2 bonus. I said it was a modifier, it "increases" those scores. Not that that it would have been terrible had I used that word choice, so I'm not sure what crack in my defenses you're trying to exploit.
Once the ASI's increase has been applied, its benefit has been retained. Nowhere does wildshape ask you to apply it a second time. It is already in your statistic. Applying it to the beasts would be applying it twice.
If it were a bonus, then applying it on top of whatever base might be reasonable, but since, as you indicated, it is not (it is a change to the calculation, for an example terminology), then it should be indicated that it should be moved. It is not indicated.
It is laughable to think a humanoid ability score, which has been replaced and is providing you no modifiers in Beast form, is presently benefiting you. It’s not “already in your statistic,” that statistic is GONE. You’re a tiger. You have a class feature that says “increase your Constitution by +2.” You’ve got a choice to make now about whether your tigers stat block benefits from that feature... And Wild Shape says yes.
What you are describing is choosing NOT to benefit from your ASI, because it’s already benefited your humanoid form and you think continuing to benefit as a beast is... too much value? I can’t do any more than ask you to read the Wild Shape entry over again and approach it more generously to the player, because the position you’re holding is not found anywhere in the text. It sounds no better than “you can’t Rage as a tiger, because your humanoid form already benefits from that ability, and your tiger actions replaced your humanoid statistics.” Yuck.
Yes. Your ability score is a sum, counting base ability scores, and increases from race, class, and other features.
Those individual race, class, and other features? Are not ability scores. They are features, which increase your ability scores. If asked "What's your Constitution?", answering "ASI: +2 Constitution" would be nonsensical, because an ASI is not an ability score.
I am fully convinced that Chicken is just trolling us now. JC himself says how it works, Chicken says he's wrong. The entire community read him the rules, he says they're wrong. Wildshape itself tell him he's wrong, he tells us it's wrong. It seems that he either is denying facts to suit how he wants the rules to work for himself to buff his own Wilfshapes, OR he's just having a laugh seeing people get riled up based on how he refuses to acknowledge that anyone other than he understands how the rules work.
Either way, the RAW is simple: Wildshape replaces all physical stats with that of the beast. That is final. The beast does not benefit from Ability Score Improvements that increase Strength,, Constitution, or Dexterity. Wildshape allows you to keep your mental stats as it is different from polymorph so your Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma remain the same. The original question has been answered. You can rage while in wildshape, and the wildshape benefits from Unarmored Defense. Meaning that a Black Bear's ac raises from 11 to 13 because of +0 Dex and +3 Con, which is what it always will be because unless your DM makes druid specific items that increase Wildshape stats, the bear will always have only a +3 to con.
If you have a DM that allows the beast form to benefit from physical ASI then good, but RAW it is not possible that this argument has gone on too long to defend a ruling that has already been passed down by the one who made the rules.
Woad, please don’t suggest I’m trolling, this issue is probably my number one “i feel like I’m taking crazy pills!” 5E issue, the RAW COULD NOT be clearer that you keep the benefit of your class features. I really don’t understand why so many reject this reading, and I’m doing my best to persuade you not to. I mean, I can usually tell when I’m arguing an uphill interpretation that isn’t 100% there, or has good arguments on both sides... this doesnt feel that way for me. Maddening!
I can usually tell when you're barking up the wrong tree: If you ignore the obvious holes that people point out.
Does wildshape ask you to change any game statistic that you get from the stat block of the creature? If it does not then why would you assume that you should?
I think the shorthand arguments are doing us a disservice, since the "obvious" arguments we've shot back and forth haven't done the trick of budging either of us. Later tonight, I'll do a deep textual dive to walk through step by step what each and every step of generating a Wild Shape form looks like. It might be that there's a mechanical step that you disagree with that we can boil down to a right or wrong answer....
... but my hunch is, that isn't really the problem here. Instead, you're fixated on "Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast" and the meaning you've ascribed to it (that your Strength, Constitution, and Dexterity become that of the Beast and are not otherwise modified by your other features), and are willing to ignore or re-interpret every other line of Wild Shape to match that conclusion.
Why on earth would you benefit from them twice?
Let's flip offense and defense for a bit: Can you provide me an example of (one each, please) a class feature and a race feature that DOES survive Wild Shape, since you're so adamant that feats/ASI modifiying ability scores, hit points, (and I'm sure a laundry list of other things as well) do not? Unless Wild Shape is packed full of empty language, what's the magic words that a feature must satisfy in your eyes to pass your unwritten extra gatekeeping?
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Anything that does not get replaced by text in wildshape. For example, an ASI in wisdom, because wisdom is not replaced by a stat from the beast.
Or, for example, any feature that grants you the ability to do something that is not prevented by your new anatomy or other limitations. For example, every other part of the athlete feat besides the bonus to a physical stat. The physical stat does not carry over, because the feat is what allows you to write 13 instead of 12 on your character sheet, but that whole number is replaced.
It's an order of evaluation issue: do you modify stats for ASIs and then apply wildshape (overwriting it) or apply wildshape first. Given that wildshape breaks all sorts of rules for attributes (for example, it's perfectly legal to wildshape into a Mammoth and have Strength 24) I'm inclined to say that wildshape is applied after ASIs.
There's no rule about having a Strength over 20; instead, there's a rule that you can't use an ASI to increase Strength over 20. I think last time we had this conversation someone helped point that out for me, so if you have a legal +2 ASI on the books while humanoid, WIld Shaping into a mammoth won't give you a Strength of 26.
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That +2 Wisdom answer is either a cop out answer, or an excellent illustration of how empty your interpretation leaves Wild Shape. Wild Shape already tells you to keep your character's Wisdom, Intelligence, and Charisma explicitly, so if the only meaning of class features, then it is indeed empty language.
And chopping Athlete in half, so it provides half its benefit to you and not the other... well, that just fails the plain language test, so I rest my case there. Nothing in Wild Shape tells you to do that.
Doubt I'll change your mind on that with any amount of arguments, but to anyone else reading along, I hope that helps draw the lines around the two camps to help show that mine is not actually quite the extreme interpretation it is being made out to be!
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What plain language tells you to keep part of your physical ability score? That is cutting a feature in half and breaks the plain language test.
"ASI: +2 Con" is not an ability score. It is a class feature which modifies your ability score, whatever your ability score happens to be in your current form.
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That is where your wrong. It isn't a +2 bonus to con. That is why you've been getting this wrong this whole time? You think an ASI gives you a bonus to con instead of changing its value?
I didn't say +2 bonus. I said it was a modifier, it "increases" those scores. Not that that it would have been terrible had I used that word choice, so I'm not sure what crack in my defenses you're trying to exploit.
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Once the ASI's increase has been applied, its benefit has been retained. Nowhere does wildshape ask you to apply it a second time. It is already in your statistic. Applying it to the beasts would be applying it twice.
If it were a bonus, then applying it on top of whatever base might be reasonable, but since, as you indicated, it is not (it is a change to the calculation, for an example terminology), then it should be indicated that it should be moved. It is not indicated.
It is laughable to think a humanoid ability score, which has been replaced and is providing you no modifiers in Beast form, is presently benefiting you. It’s not “already in your statistic,” that statistic is GONE. You’re a tiger. You have a class feature that says “increase your Constitution by +2.” You’ve got a choice to make now about whether your tigers stat block benefits from that feature... And Wild Shape says yes.
What you are describing is choosing NOT to benefit from your ASI, because it’s already benefited your humanoid form and you think continuing to benefit as a beast is... too much value? I can’t do any more than ask you to read the Wild Shape entry over again and approach it more generously to the player, because the position you’re holding is not found anywhere in the text. It sounds no better than “you can’t Rage as a tiger, because your humanoid form already benefits from that ability, and your tiger actions replaced your humanoid statistics.” Yuck.
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Your ability score is its sum. Do you disagree on that?
Yes. Your ability score is a sum, counting base ability scores, and increases from race, class, and other features.
Those individual race, class, and other features? Are not ability scores. They are features, which increase your ability scores. If asked "What's your Constitution?", answering "ASI: +2 Constitution" would be nonsensical, because an ASI is not an ability score.
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So if you were asked to set your constitution to 0, in the same vein, then setting it to +2 or 0+2 or anything but zero would be equally nonsensical?
I am fully convinced that Chicken is just trolling us now. JC himself says how it works, Chicken says he's wrong. The entire community read him the rules, he says they're wrong. Wildshape itself tell him he's wrong, he tells us it's wrong. It seems that he either is denying facts to suit how he wants the rules to work for himself to buff his own Wilfshapes, OR he's just having a laugh seeing people get riled up based on how he refuses to acknowledge that anyone other than he understands how the rules work.
Either way, the RAW is simple: Wildshape replaces all physical stats with that of the beast. That is final. The beast does not benefit from Ability Score Improvements that increase Strength,, Constitution, or Dexterity. Wildshape allows you to keep your mental stats as it is different from polymorph so your Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma remain the same. The original question has been answered. You can rage while in wildshape, and the wildshape benefits from Unarmored Defense. Meaning that a Black Bear's ac raises from 11 to 13 because of +0 Dex and +3 Con, which is what it always will be because unless your DM makes druid specific items that increase Wildshape stats, the bear will always have only a +3 to con.
If you have a DM that allows the beast form to benefit from physical ASI then good, but RAW it is not possible that this argument has gone on too long to defend a ruling that has already been passed down by the one who made the rules.
Woad, please don’t suggest I’m trolling, this issue is probably my number one “i feel like I’m taking crazy pills!” 5E issue, the RAW COULD NOT be clearer that you keep the benefit of your class features. I really don’t understand why so many reject this reading, and I’m doing my best to persuade you not to. I mean, I can usually tell when I’m arguing an uphill interpretation that isn’t 100% there, or has good arguments on both sides... this doesnt feel that way for me. Maddening!
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I can usually tell when you're barking up the wrong tree: If you ignore the obvious holes that people point out.
Does wildshape ask you to change any game statistic that you get from the stat block of the creature? If it does not then why would you assume that you should?
I think the shorthand arguments are doing us a disservice, since the "obvious" arguments we've shot back and forth haven't done the trick of budging either of us. Later tonight, I'll do a deep textual dive to walk through step by step what each and every step of generating a Wild Shape form looks like. It might be that there's a mechanical step that you disagree with that we can boil down to a right or wrong answer....
... but my hunch is, that isn't really the problem here. Instead, you're fixated on "Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast" and the meaning you've ascribed to it (that your Strength, Constitution, and Dexterity become that of the Beast and are not otherwise modified by your other features), and are willing to ignore or re-interpret every other line of Wild Shape to match that conclusion.
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Exactly. You didn't answer the question.