Woad, please don’t suggest I’m trolling, this issue is probably my number one “i feel like I’m taking crazy pills!” 5E issue, the RAW COULD NOT be clearer that you keep the benefit of your class features. I really don’t understand why so many reject this reading, and I’m doing my best to persuade you not to. I mean, I can usually tell when I’m arguing an uphill interpretation that isn’t 100% there, or has good arguments on both sides... this doesnt feel that way for me. Maddening!
Everyone agrees that you retain the benefit of your class features, and ASIs are a class feature. Where I think we disagree is if having your ability overwritten counts as losing the benefit of the ASI.
I, and I think everyone besides you, think that you still count as benefiting from the ASI because YOUR ability still got improved, and still is improved even while using the unimproved abilities of the beast.
But also as pointed out earlier, the ASI wouldn't change anything. All NPC stat blocks are mostly static. An ASI could possibly be applied to HP, skills, and saves, but not AC or actions.
And in regards to HP, that is the stat that benefits more than normal from that ruling. Since HP not only ends the transformation early, but damage carries over to human form, effectively doubling the effectiveness of HP buffs per transformation.
The issue is, it is not important that "you" retain the benefit of your class features... you in the new form specifically is directed to retain their benefit and use that benefit. "Retain the benefit... and can use them" [in the new form], I have to ask... what use/benefit is the Tiger receiving of a humanoid's modified constitution, which does not in any way contribute to the Tiger's stat block? None, is the answer. If the Tiger has that feature (and it does, because class features are retained), then its beast form must use the benefit from that feature if it is physically capable of doing so. What's the benefit of "increase one ability score of your choice by 2"? It is... increase an ability score, by 2. It isn't a mystery.
I can accept that reasonable DMs could differ about the line drawn by "if the new form is physically capable of doing so." JCs own interpretation was "has a mouth," "has limbs," etc., and under that interpretation, a Tiger certainly has a Constitution score and would be physically capable of benefiting from a better one. But was JCs interpretation pulled from the core rules? Was it the only reasonable interpretation? No. If your DM wanted to say... just spitballing here... "a Beast's body is not physically capable of using any class, race, and other features that modify a humanoid's physical ability scores, hit points, or movement speed"... I mean, I think that would be a crappy ruling, but it would read as a coherent justification for not applying ASI to a Beast's ability scores, because they're not "physically capable" of using those benefits, and that's a door the Wild Shape write up left cracked.
But the "physically capable" limitation is the only barrier that the DM is handed for deciding that a class, race, or other feature doesn't apply to the Beast. Other than that specific limitation, "you retain the benefit... and can use them." There is no sentence that says "use the Beast's printed Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution ability scores with no modification from your class, race, or other features." There is no sentence saying that for HP, or movement, or anything else other than senses.
"However, you can't use any of your special senses, such as darkvision, unless your new form also has that sense." That wasn't so hard! If Wild Shape wants your Beast to not benefit from a certain type of class, race, or other feature... it tells you so, right there, no reading between the lines required! If a rule existed that "however, your physical ability scores cannot be improved by your features," all they would have had to do is print that. They didn't.
Again, that is a lot of avoiding everything that DxJxC brought up and a lot of trying to make your position seem less unreasonable.
You have not indicated where it says that any game statistic taken from the monster's stat block is to be altered or how it is to be altered or what that effect has on any other part of that creature's stat block. That would all need indication within the player facing feature. It is nonexistent, which indicates it is an invention.
If you were asked to set your constitution to 0, in the same vein, then setting it to +2 or 0+2 or anything but zero would be equally nonsensical?
But they are not asked to change their con to X. They are asked to change their con to the con of the animal they are changing into. That is not the same thing. With the sidekick rules, you can have leveled animals and those leveled animals get ASI's at appropriate levels. Therefore animals can be leveled and can use ASI's.
Therefore the PC's normal form ASI's should arguably count.
JC might have ruled differently but did so pre-Tasha's.
Sidekicks are special rules on top of monsters, not monster rules. Nothing in Wildshape indicates that you should use sidekick rules to help you determine ability scores.
And again, you are asked to change your physical stats to those of the "as written" beast which does not have levels.
Again, that is a lot of avoiding everything that DxJxC brought up and a lot of trying to make your position seem less unreasonable.
You have not indicated where it says that any game statistic taken from the monster's stat block is to be altered or how it is to be altered or what that effect has on any other part of that creature's stat block. That would all need indication within the player facing feature. It is nonexistent, which indicates it is an invention.
That would be putting the cart before the Wild Shaped horse druid. I'd rather discuss what (if anything) on a beast's statblock can be affected by ability scores after we get to the point of agreeing what those ability scores are, not inviting tomorrow's troubles today.
I think I met DxJxC pretty square on. Their core argument: having your Strength, Constitution, and Dexterity overwritten does not mean "you" have lost the benefit of your class feature which improves those scores, so Wild Shape is being respected. My response: If the Beast can't use them, "you" have lost the benefit while Wild Shaped. Their other observations (what's the point anyway; isn't it really quite good to get both Beast and Humanoid HP buffed by the same ASI: +2 Con?) are noted, I don't think I need to belabor them.
Again, that is a lot of avoiding everything that DxJxC brought up and a lot of trying to make your position seem less unreasonable.
You have not indicated where it says that any game statistic taken from the monster's stat block is to be altered or how it is to be altered or what that effect has on any other part of that creature's stat block. That would all need indication within the player facing feature. It is nonexistent, which indicates it is an invention.
That would be putting the cart before the Wild Shaped horse druid. I'd rather discuss what (if anything) on a beast's statblock can be affected by ability scores after we get to the point of agreeing what those ability scores are, not inviting tomorrow's troubles today.
I think I met DxJxC pretty square on. Their core argument: having your Strength, Constitution, and Dexterity overwritten does not mean "you" have lost the benefit of your class feature which improves those scores, so Wild Shape is being respected. My response: If the Beast can't use them, "you" have lost the benefit while Wild Shaped. Their other observations (what's the point anyway; isn't it really quite good to get both Beast and Humanoid HP buffed by the same ASI: +2 Con?) are noted, I don't think I need to belabor them.
You are saying that somehow, you need to change something about a statistic that Wildshape says you should take from the beast's statblock. It is a perfectly reasonable question to ask what part of the rule tells you how that works.
Wild Shape tells you take everything from the beast's statblock, but to also retain and benefit from your features. Why do you think Constitution is any different from movement speed, AC, actions available, saving throws, etc etc etc?
Wild Shape tells you to benefit from your features, in general
It does not tell you NOT to benefit from ability-score-related features.
Feats and ASIs are both examples of class features, which Wild Shape tells you to retain, benefit from, and use.
That's it. That's the whole argument. Its sufficient and coherent, and unless you can quote some rule language I'm overlooking that contradicts one or all of those.... I think the reasonable question is to ask you what YOUR source is, I've been pretty clear where I'm coming from. It SEEMS like your argument is:
Wild Shape tells you to replace your statistics.
Other, unwritten language, demands that you not modify those statistics in any way, even though the fourth bullet point of Wild Shape says otherwise.
Edit: nevermind. I don't care anymore. The rule tells you what to do, what to keep (Note that my theory is that you are confusing a bonus which is a floating, always applicable adjustment with an increase which is a one time change). You will never understand that difference, and so you will not be convinced that the benefit that it provides is the new value of the ability score (which is explicitly replaced) and not some magical non-existent bonus.
Do you want to try answering the question. I know we disagree on what "replace your game statistics" means.
Your ability score is a singular number. If it is replaced, it is replaced.
Every number is a singular number. However your stats can be the total of several numbers.
To restate the argument:
Your normal physical stats are replaced by the normal physical stats of the beast you transform into. THEN (later bullet point) any features you gained from class, feats, etc that can be applied to that physical form are applied, no different from your character having started without such, then gaining them later at appropriate levels.
But that's the problem. You don't reapply those things, you retain them. The ASI has already changed your ability score and that is retained. But your ability score, which you agree, is a singular number, is replaced while still retaining its benefit from an ASI. Again, you are asked to retain features, not reapply them.
Again, you are indicating that you also don't understand the difference between a bonus and a change in a value.
Your question being, what part of the rules tells you what "replace your game statistics" means? That's probably a pretty straightforward answer, "take the Tiger stats, except overwrite them or modify them with whatever you're directed to retain from your humanoid statistics." But, assuming you actually are asking a serious question and want to dive into where "statistics" are described....
Nothing provides a step by step order of operations that I'm aware of. The other place that language is most notably found is in Polymorph, which directs you to replace all your statistics with a Beast's. Alignment and Personality are retained, but "except..." isn't used, so I guess Alignment and Personality aren't "statistics" according to Polymorph? Or it just thought that was super important to emphasize.
Polymorph and Wild Shape both provide some other specific instructions about hit points, ability scores, etc., but if we want to better understand what "replacing statistics" might mean before we dive into any exceptions or specific instructions, let's turn to where else we can find "statistics" used in a core rulebook. There are three primary sources where "statistics" are used and defined: the Monster Manual introduction; Chapter 4 of the DMG; and Appendix D of the Player's Handbook (I'll leave Basic Rules out of it for now, which sort of merge those three, sometimes with slightly different word choice). I suppose Chapter 1 of the PHB is worth mention as well, since it's the only one that talks about "statistics" being something a player character has, vs. a monster or NPC.
1) PHB Chapter 1
Chapter 1 only mentions "statistics" once: "Your character is a combination of game statistics, roleplaying hooks, and your imagination." That would suggest that everything mechanical (not roleplaying, not imagination) is a "statistic". I don't think that's really right, but I won't hold it against the PHB for over-simplifying things in its first paragraph of the whole rule book! The chapter goes on to describe character Race (including racial "traits"), Class (including "benefits" which include both class "features" and "proficiencies", hit points and hit dice, and your proficiency bonus), Ability Scores, Personality, and Equipment. I really don't think this chapter is an attempt to define "statistics" in an organized fashion, and I take issue with nesting Proficiency Bonus and Level under class, but... it is what it is.
2) PHB Appendix D
"For information on how to read a stat block, see the Monster Manual." Okay, tabled.
3) DMG Chapter 4
"When you give an NPC game statistics, you have three main options: giving the NPC only the few statistics it needs, give the NPC a monster stat block, or give the NPC a class and levels." The actual how-to on this, one is directed over to DMG Chapter 9. Okay.
"The introduction to the Monster Manual explains all the components of a monster’s stat block." Unlike the PHB Appendix D though, there's some more context to be found here still.
DMG Chapter 9 goes on to describe Name, Size, Type, Alignment, Ability Scores and Modifiers, Challenge Rating, Armor Class, Hit Points, Vulnerabilities/Resistances/Immunities, Attack Bonuses, Damage, Save DCs, Special Traits/Actions/Reactions, Speed, Saving Throw Bonuses, Skill Bonuses, Condition Immunities, Senses, Languages, and "Monster Features" as the components of a stat block, not all of which every monster needs.
It's also interesting that the DMG acknowledges that monsters can have class levels, and "gain all the class features for every class level you add," with a couple of exceptions: no starting equipment, don't use the Class' hit die but rather the monster's size-based hit die, and proficiency bonus based on challenge rating not class level. Not saying that a Wild Shaped druid uses these DMG stat-building rules, but I do think it's interesting that the core books anticipate that a Beast's statblock should be able to be modified by class features, with no exception provided for Ability Scores, bonuses to total HP, etc.
4) Monster Manual Intro
The list of statistics the MM describes are largely the as those summarized in the DMG, but with much more detail provided for each. Size, Type, Alignment, Ability Scores and Modifiers, Challenge Rating, Armor Class, Hit Points, Vulnerabilities/Resistances/Immunities, Special Traits, Actions, Reactions, Limited Usage abilities, Speed, Saving Throws, Skills, Condition Immunities, Senses, Languages, Equipment, and Legendary/Lair actions.
So for anything on a Tiger which falls under the stuff in 3 or 4... use the Tiger's [___ statistic], instead of whatever is on your character sheet normally. But, of course, we then have to turn around and overwrite or modify the Tiger statistics with anything you're directed to retain.... which is honestly MOST things that were on your character sheet, other than base values.
Disagreement so far? I think the more important question is "what's a class, race, and other feature," not "what's a statistic and how do you replace it".
Disagreement so far? I think the more important question is "what's a class, race, and other feature," not "what's a statistic and how do you replace it".
People aren't arguing that an ASI is not a class feature, but that there is no "benefit" of it that can be retained. The benefit of an ASI is that you have been given (and have used) an opportunity to increase a stat. It is immediately a past benefit. The benefit of an ASI is definitely not that "your strength is now and always will be +2 higher than it would otherwise be without this feature". There are many effects that can override your STR entirely and you will not get the +2 after those. When you receive the ASI you immediately (and once) change from a STR 14 creature into a STR 16 creature. You aren't a STR 14 + 2 creature. That has no meaning.
Once you become a tiger your STR value of 16 is replaced. The tiger does not gain an ASI because it is not a fighter that has just reached level 4 - it's a tiger. It retains the benefit of that ASI by still being a STR 16 creature underneath the tiger skin, but nothing more.
I came into this argument very much on the side of "Use the Tiger's Str and don't worry about it anymore," but Chicken_Champ has done a lot to convince me. I do have a question, though: under CC's interpretation, would a Wildshaped druid retain racial ASI's? If the druid were normally a half-orc, would their beast shapes get +2 Str and +1 Con?
I came into this argument very much on the side of "Use the Tiger's Str and don't worry about it anymore," but Chicken_Champ has done a lot to convince me. I do have a question, though: under CC's interpretation, would a Wildshaped druid retain racial ASI's? If the druid were normally a half-orc, would their beast shapes get +2 Str and +1 Con?
unless “physically capable” is ruled to mean “a quadruped Beast is physically incapable of benefiting from the Half Orc ability score increase,” then yeah, it’s a race feature, and one you are entitled to have your beast benefit from. While I don’t love applying racial ability score increases to every beast right from level 2, there is a certain in-game logic, with dwarf Druids turning into stockier wolves and elf Druids into more graceful ones. A lot of the times I’ve seen Druids at the table, they’ve used that narrative device to some extent anyway, their beast forms sharing a recognizable physical trait with their humanoid form.
The truth is, I think Wild Shape is messy, disorganized, poorly balanced, and needs too much book keeping as written, so I empathize with the instinct to try to simplify it. If I were to make one simple change to the current write up, I’d probably cross out “race features” entirely (especially because, races don’t have “features,” they have “traits,” but also your size is one such trait but... the whole thing gets messy real fast). I think a lot of DMs are more likely to get sticker shock when asked to accept a Tiger with dwarven poison resistance, Dragonborn breath weapons, or Powerful Build than they are to be bothered by a player being able to keep the feats and other class features that they’ve unlocked with training and experience, so I feel striking “race features” would be a pretty good compromise to keep Beasts more vanilla, at low levels at least.
What features reduce any given stat (other than movement) to 0 without that being lethal? There are abilities that prevent the use of stats, but none that actually reduce the stat itself to 0 all at once. Even a 0 stat theoretically allows action by the way, even if at -5.
A Shadow can reduce Strength to zero, but does so in terms of stat damage. Any +'s to Strength the character has, regardless of source (Incl. ASI's to str), make them that much less vulnerable to being so slain.
I don't see that this is relevant. I meant override to mean "set to a specific value", not set to zero. If your magic gauntlets set your strength to 19 then your ASI to strength is overridden and your strength is 19 not 21 - because your old strength was 16, not 14+2.
I'll switch it up here. I'm not going to argue from the perspective of the rules, but from that of common sense and realism.
When you gain an ASI on levelling, that is not a magical increase. It represents your training and experience gained. An ASI in Str is as a result of you building extra muscles, Dex is your body becoming more nimble, Con is your body becoming healthier and more durable.
When you wildshape, you are now in the beast's body. That beast hasn't spent that time training and conditioning. It is just a generic body of that beast as would be found in the wild. You still have your mental stats because your mind is controlling the bestial body, but your body, the thing which you have been training and honing with those ASIs, is no longer there.
Now, HP could be considered slightly differently, as they are "a combination of physical and mental durability, the will to live, and luck". However, I think we can come back to the rules here. Specific beats general, and the most specific part of the rules in relation to HP says "you assume the beast’s hit points". That's very clear cut, and overrides the more general rule about retaining benefits of class etc.
Lets explore an example. A high elf druid with wisdom 12 and strength 12, both including ASIs that has wilshaped into a rat.
Does that rat have proficiency with a long bow? Can that rat use that long bow?
Does that rat reapply its wisdom ASI again when it wildshapes to have a 14 wis now (as you imply that it should do for str to arrive at a 4)?
Can that rat use its racial feature to cast a wizard cantrip?
My point with these hypothetical questions is that retaining a benefit does not always make it useful. A benefit may be superseded, and in that event, you have not lost it. Then again, the crazy pills interpretation is that the answer is that the rat is a longbow wielding super wise cantrip blaster.
If you were asked to set your constitution to 0, in the same vein, then setting it to +2 or 0+2 or anything but zero would be equally nonsensical?
Everyone agrees that you retain the benefit of your class features, and ASIs are a class feature. Where I think we disagree is if having your ability overwritten counts as losing the benefit of the ASI.
I, and I think everyone besides you, think that you still count as benefiting from the ASI because YOUR ability still got improved, and still is improved even while using the unimproved abilities of the beast.
But also as pointed out earlier, the ASI wouldn't change anything. All NPC stat blocks are mostly static. An ASI could possibly be applied to HP, skills, and saves, but not AC or actions.
And in regards to HP, that is the stat that benefits more than normal from that ruling. Since HP not only ends the transformation early, but damage carries over to human form, effectively doubling the effectiveness of HP buffs per transformation.
The issue is, it is not important that "you" retain the benefit of your class features... you in the new form specifically is directed to retain their benefit and use that benefit. "Retain the benefit... and can use them" [in the new form], I have to ask... what use/benefit is the Tiger receiving of a humanoid's modified constitution, which does not in any way contribute to the Tiger's stat block? None, is the answer. If the Tiger has that feature (and it does, because class features are retained), then its beast form must use the benefit from that feature if it is physically capable of doing so. What's the benefit of "increase one ability score of your choice by 2"? It is... increase an ability score, by 2. It isn't a mystery.
I can accept that reasonable DMs could differ about the line drawn by "if the new form is physically capable of doing so." JCs own interpretation was "has a mouth," "has limbs," etc., and under that interpretation, a Tiger certainly has a Constitution score and would be physically capable of benefiting from a better one. But was JCs interpretation pulled from the core rules? Was it the only reasonable interpretation? No. If your DM wanted to say... just spitballing here... "a Beast's body is not physically capable of using any class, race, and other features that modify a humanoid's physical ability scores, hit points, or movement speed"... I mean, I think that would be a crappy ruling, but it would read as a coherent justification for not applying ASI to a Beast's ability scores, because they're not "physically capable" of using those benefits, and that's a door the Wild Shape write up left cracked.
But the "physically capable" limitation is the only barrier that the DM is handed for deciding that a class, race, or other feature doesn't apply to the Beast. Other than that specific limitation, "you retain the benefit... and can use them." There is no sentence that says "use the Beast's printed Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution ability scores with no modification from your class, race, or other features." There is no sentence saying that for HP, or movement, or anything else other than senses.
"However, you can't use any of your special senses, such as darkvision, unless your new form also has that sense." That wasn't so hard! If Wild Shape wants your Beast to not benefit from a certain type of class, race, or other feature... it tells you so, right there, no reading between the lines required! If a rule existed that "however, your physical ability scores cannot be improved by your features," all they would have had to do is print that. They didn't.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Again, that is a lot of avoiding everything that DxJxC brought up and a lot of trying to make your position seem less unreasonable.
You have not indicated where it says that any game statistic taken from the monster's stat block is to be altered or how it is to be altered or what that effect has on any other part of that creature's stat block. That would all need indication within the player facing feature. It is nonexistent, which indicates it is an invention.
Sidekicks are special rules on top of monsters, not monster rules. Nothing in Wildshape indicates that you should use sidekick rules to help you determine ability scores.
And again, you are asked to change your physical stats to those of the "as written" beast which does not have levels.
That would be putting the cart before the Wild Shaped horse druid. I'd rather discuss what (if anything) on a beast's statblock can be affected by ability scores after we get to the point of agreeing what those ability scores are, not inviting tomorrow's troubles today.
I think I met DxJxC pretty square on. Their core argument: having your Strength, Constitution, and Dexterity overwritten does not mean "you" have lost the benefit of your class feature which improves those scores, so Wild Shape is being respected. My response: If the Beast can't use them, "you" have lost the benefit while Wild Shaped. Their other observations (what's the point anyway; isn't it really quite good to get both Beast and Humanoid HP buffed by the same ASI: +2 Con?) are noted, I don't think I need to belabor them.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
You are saying that somehow, you need to change something about a statistic that Wildshape says you should take from the beast's statblock. It is a perfectly reasonable question to ask what part of the rule tells you how that works.
Wild Shape tells you take everything from the beast's statblock, but to also retain and benefit from your features. Why do you think Constitution is any different from movement speed, AC, actions available, saving throws, etc etc etc?
That's it. That's the whole argument. Its sufficient and coherent, and unless you can quote some rule language I'm overlooking that contradicts one or all of those.... I think the reasonable question is to ask you what YOUR source is, I've been pretty clear where I'm coming from. It SEEMS like your argument is:
???
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Do you want to try answering the question. I know we disagree on what "replace your game statistics" means.
Your ability score is a singular number. If it is replaced, it is replaced.
Edit: nevermind. I don't care anymore. The rule tells you what to do, what to keep (Note that my theory is that you are confusing a bonus which is a floating, always applicable adjustment with an increase which is a one time change). You will never understand that difference, and so you will not be convinced that the benefit that it provides is the new value of the ability score (which is explicitly replaced) and not some magical non-existent bonus.
But that's the problem. You don't reapply those things, you retain them. The ASI has already changed your ability score and that is retained. But your ability score, which you agree, is a singular number, is replaced while still retaining its benefit from an ASI. Again, you are asked to retain features, not reapply them.
Again, you are indicating that you also don't understand the difference between a bonus and a change in a value.
Your question being, what part of the rules tells you what "replace your game statistics" means? That's probably a pretty straightforward answer, "take the Tiger stats, except overwrite them or modify them with whatever you're directed to retain from your humanoid statistics." But, assuming you actually are asking a serious question and want to dive into where "statistics" are described....
Nothing provides a step by step order of operations that I'm aware of. The other place that language is most notably found is in Polymorph, which directs you to replace all your statistics with a Beast's. Alignment and Personality are retained, but "except..." isn't used, so I guess Alignment and Personality aren't "statistics" according to Polymorph? Or it just thought that was super important to emphasize.
Polymorph and Wild Shape both provide some other specific instructions about hit points, ability scores, etc., but if we want to better understand what "replacing statistics" might mean before we dive into any exceptions or specific instructions, let's turn to where else we can find "statistics" used in a core rulebook. There are three primary sources where "statistics" are used and defined: the Monster Manual introduction; Chapter 4 of the DMG; and Appendix D of the Player's Handbook (I'll leave Basic Rules out of it for now, which sort of merge those three, sometimes with slightly different word choice). I suppose Chapter 1 of the PHB is worth mention as well, since it's the only one that talks about "statistics" being something a player character has, vs. a monster or NPC.
1) PHB Chapter 1
Chapter 1 only mentions "statistics" once: "Your character is a combination of game statistics, roleplaying hooks, and your imagination." That would suggest that everything mechanical (not roleplaying, not imagination) is a "statistic". I don't think that's really right, but I won't hold it against the PHB for over-simplifying things in its first paragraph of the whole rule book! The chapter goes on to describe character Race (including racial "traits"), Class (including "benefits" which include both class "features" and "proficiencies", hit points and hit dice, and your proficiency bonus), Ability Scores, Personality, and Equipment. I really don't think this chapter is an attempt to define "statistics" in an organized fashion, and I take issue with nesting Proficiency Bonus and Level under class, but... it is what it is.
2) PHB Appendix D
"For information on how to read a stat block, see the Monster Manual." Okay, tabled.
3) DMG Chapter 4
"When you give an NPC game statistics, you have three main options: giving the NPC only the few statistics it needs, give the NPC a monster stat block, or give the NPC a class and levels." The actual how-to on this, one is directed over to DMG Chapter 9. Okay.
"The introduction to the Monster Manual explains all the components of a monster’s stat block." Unlike the PHB Appendix D though, there's some more context to be found here still.
DMG Chapter 9 goes on to describe Name, Size, Type, Alignment, Ability Scores and Modifiers, Challenge Rating, Armor Class, Hit Points, Vulnerabilities/Resistances/Immunities, Attack Bonuses, Damage, Save DCs, Special Traits/Actions/Reactions, Speed, Saving Throw Bonuses, Skill Bonuses, Condition Immunities, Senses, Languages, and "Monster Features" as the components of a stat block, not all of which every monster needs.
It's also interesting that the DMG acknowledges that monsters can have class levels, and "gain all the class features for every class level you add," with a couple of exceptions: no starting equipment, don't use the Class' hit die but rather the monster's size-based hit die, and proficiency bonus based on challenge rating not class level. Not saying that a Wild Shaped druid uses these DMG stat-building rules, but I do think it's interesting that the core books anticipate that a Beast's statblock should be able to be modified by class features, with no exception provided for Ability Scores, bonuses to total HP, etc.
4) Monster Manual Intro
The list of statistics the MM describes are largely the as those summarized in the DMG, but with much more detail provided for each. Size, Type, Alignment, Ability Scores and Modifiers, Challenge Rating, Armor Class, Hit Points, Vulnerabilities/Resistances/Immunities, Special Traits, Actions, Reactions, Limited Usage abilities, Speed, Saving Throws, Skills, Condition Immunities, Senses, Languages, Equipment, and Legendary/Lair actions.
So for anything on a Tiger which falls under the stuff in 3 or 4... use the Tiger's [___ statistic], instead of whatever is on your character sheet normally. But, of course, we then have to turn around and overwrite or modify the Tiger statistics with anything you're directed to retain.... which is honestly MOST things that were on your character sheet, other than base values.
Disagreement so far? I think the more important question is "what's a class, race, and other feature," not "what's a statistic and how do you replace it".
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
People aren't arguing that an ASI is not a class feature, but that there is no "benefit" of it that can be retained. The benefit of an ASI is that you have been given (and have used) an opportunity to increase a stat. It is immediately a past benefit. The benefit of an ASI is definitely not that "your strength is now and always will be +2 higher than it would otherwise be without this feature". There are many effects that can override your STR entirely and you will not get the +2 after those. When you receive the ASI you immediately (and once) change from a STR 14 creature into a STR 16 creature. You aren't a STR 14 + 2 creature. That has no meaning.
Once you become a tiger your STR value of 16 is replaced. The tiger does not gain an ASI because it is not a fighter that has just reached level 4 - it's a tiger. It retains the benefit of that ASI by still being a STR 16 creature underneath the tiger skin, but nothing more.
I came into this argument very much on the side of "Use the Tiger's Str and don't worry about it anymore," but Chicken_Champ has done a lot to convince me. I do have a question, though: under CC's interpretation, would a Wildshaped druid retain racial ASI's? If the druid were normally a half-orc, would their beast shapes get +2 Str and +1 Con?
Probably.
unless “physically capable” is ruled to mean “a quadruped Beast is physically incapable of benefiting from the Half Orc ability score increase,” then yeah, it’s a race feature, and one you are entitled to have your beast benefit from. While I don’t love applying racial ability score increases to every beast right from level 2, there is a certain in-game logic, with dwarf Druids turning into stockier wolves and elf Druids into more graceful ones. A lot of the times I’ve seen Druids at the table, they’ve used that narrative device to some extent anyway, their beast forms sharing a recognizable physical trait with their humanoid form.
The truth is, I think Wild Shape is messy, disorganized, poorly balanced, and needs too much book keeping as written, so I empathize with the instinct to try to simplify it. If I were to make one simple change to the current write up, I’d probably cross out “race features” entirely (especially because, races don’t have “features,” they have “traits,” but also your size is one such trait but... the whole thing gets messy real fast). I think a lot of DMs are more likely to get sticker shock when asked to accept a Tiger with dwarven poison resistance, Dragonborn breath weapons, or Powerful Build than they are to be bothered by a player being able to keep the feats and other class features that they’ve unlocked with training and experience, so I feel striking “race features” would be a pretty good compromise to keep Beasts more vanilla, at low levels at least.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I don't see that this is relevant. I meant override to mean "set to a specific value", not set to zero. If your magic gauntlets set your strength to 19 then your ASI to strength is overridden and your strength is 19 not 21 - because your old strength was 16, not 14+2.
I'll switch it up here. I'm not going to argue from the perspective of the rules, but from that of common sense and realism.
When you gain an ASI on levelling, that is not a magical increase. It represents your training and experience gained. An ASI in Str is as a result of you building extra muscles, Dex is your body becoming more nimble, Con is your body becoming healthier and more durable.
When you wildshape, you are now in the beast's body. That beast hasn't spent that time training and conditioning. It is just a generic body of that beast as would be found in the wild. You still have your mental stats because your mind is controlling the bestial body, but your body, the thing which you have been training and honing with those ASIs, is no longer there.
Now, HP could be considered slightly differently, as they are "a combination of physical and mental durability, the will to live, and luck". However, I think we can come back to the rules here. Specific beats general, and the most specific part of the rules in relation to HP says "you assume the beast’s hit points". That's very clear cut, and overrides the more general rule about retaining benefits of class etc.
The wolf strength replaces the druid strength. The belt strength replaces the wolf strength (I'm not certain wolves can wear belts).
The wolf intelligence does not replace the druid intelligence. Feeblemind intelligence does replace the druid-wolf intelligence.
Is not rocket surgery.
Lets explore an example. A high elf druid with wisdom 12 and strength 12, both including ASIs that has wilshaped into a rat.
My point with these hypothetical questions is that retaining a benefit does not always make it useful. A benefit may be superseded, and in that event, you have not lost it. Then again, the crazy pills interpretation is that the answer is that the rat is a longbow wielding super wise cantrip blaster.