In the UA description of Way of the Astral Self Monks, the Astral Arms feature was considered a "Monk Weapon". However, this was removed from the description in the official release of the class. It only says "You can use the spectral arms to make unarmed strikes."
Anyhow, if an Astral Monk is manacled with their hands behind their back, can they still use their Astral Arms to attack or are they essentially manacled with their real arms?
I realize that a manacled Astral Monk can still make unarmed attacks with their feet, knees, or even head. The real difference would only be the 5 feet of extra reach and the Force damage instead of Blunting.
I don't see any reason why restraining an Astral Monk's physical arms would also restrain their astral arms. It's actually one of the major strengths of the subclass... there's no specific action associated with the summoning of the arms (No equivalent to "Somatic" or "Vocal" components). As long as the Monk is conscious and has Ki, they can just pop out the arms in any weird situation where they're otherwise restrained. I think that's part of why the arms persist for 10 minutes... most stuff meant simply for combat has a 1 minute duration, since that's how long most fights are assumed to be. But the 10 minute time limit gives them more use for utility purposes (like breaking out of restraints, or scaling a wall).
One note: As I understand it, the Astral Arms can only be used to make unarmed attacks. Beyond the one-time area effect damage upon activation, the only additional benefits of the arms are the extra 5 feet of reach, the Force Damage type, and the possibility of being able to disengage without an Attack of Opportunity when you're 10 feet away from an enemy whose reach is only 5 feet. And, as you say, you can do this for 10 minutes, which is pretty great. However, things like grappling, shoving, or climbing with the arms would not be possible, due to their spectral nature.
I do think it would be pretty cool to be able to do those things with the arms, but that's how it goes in our games.
Yeah I've seen multiple discussions about the subject and that little bit about strength checks/saves does seem to imply that you should be able to use the arms for more than just unarmed strikes. I haven't yet found a discussion where that ruling is the consensus, though. I'll politely ask my DM about it and see what he says. Like I say, I think it would be pretty cool to be able to do those things!
Yeah I've seen multiple discussions about the subject and that little bit about strength checks/saves does seem to imply that you should be able to use the arms for more than just unarmed strikes. I haven't yet found a discussion where that ruling is the consensus, though. I'll politely ask my DM about it and see what he says. Like I say, I think it would be pretty cool to be able to do those things!
The problem is that it is implied, not stated. When following RAW strictly, implied is not enough.
That's pretty interesting. I always interpreted them as viable arms that can do any action the Monk is capable of... and that did just come from the description stating that WIS can be used in place of STR for checks and saving throws. I never really thought that the description of the arms doesn't really clarify just how "solid" they are for any purpose other than attacking. Still, within the campaign I'm playing with friends, our Astral monk uses them in that way, and so far it's been fun.
Yeah I’m sure some DM’s wouldn’t have a problem with using the arms for some things, but I don’t think they would be capable of using weapons to get the reach, or picking items up. They deliver force damage and if they were solid I would assume they would do bludgeoning damage like your fists instead.
Would you allow them to use the arms to reach keys to a jail cell 10 feet away? Use them to aid climbing?
I just assumed that the use of WIS for STR checks and saving throws was just from their presence (just like the visage let’s you see normally in darkness just by it being there) not because they are doing the actual lifting etc.
Yeah I’m sure some DM’s wouldn’t have a problem with using the arms for some things, but I don’t think they would be capable of using weapons to get the reach, or picking items up. They deliver force damage and if they were solid I would assume they would do bludgeoning damage like your fists instead.
Would you allow them to use the arms to reach keys to a jail cell 10 feet away? Use them to aid climbing?
I just assumed that the use of WIS for STR checks and saving throws was just from their presence (just like the visage let’s you see normally in darkness just by it being there) not because they are doing the actual lifting etc.
That explanation makes sense to me! Also, if they were solid, I imagine there might be manacles to restrain them, as well. I'm definitely not trying to push the issue with my DM. Just an interesting question to think about.
Using your WIS to allow the arms to do Strength checks and Strength saving throws implies that the arms have some use as an alternative to using your own arms for doing strength-based things.
But since it uses your WIS then I would suggest that they are only solid enough for the Strength check/saving throw when you consciously decide that they need to be.
However, since they can't replace DEX checks/saving throws then I don't they would provide any amount of finesse in their use.
A quick look at Athletics and other uses for Strength checks gives an idea of their usage.
Presumably Dr Octavius style arms whilst avoiding copyright :-)
Using your WIS to allow the arms to do Strength checks and Strength saving throws implies that the arms have some use as an alternative to using your own arms for doing strength-based things.
But since it uses your WIS then I would suggest that they are only solid enough for the Strength check/saving throw when you consciously decide that they need to be.
However, since they can't replace DEX checks/saving throws then I don't they would provide any amount of finesse in their use.
A quick look at Athletics and other uses for Strength checks gives an idea of their usage.
Presumably Dr Octavius style arms whilst avoiding copyright :-)
Another compelling explanation. Thanks for your response!
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In the UA description of Way of the Astral Self Monks, the Astral Arms feature was considered a "Monk Weapon". However, this was removed from the description in the official release of the class. It only says "You can use the spectral arms to make unarmed strikes."
Anyhow, if an Astral Monk is manacled with their hands behind their back, can they still use their Astral Arms to attack or are they essentially manacled with their real arms?
I realize that a manacled Astral Monk can still make unarmed attacks with their feet, knees, or even head. The real difference would only be the 5 feet of extra reach and the Force damage instead of Blunting.
What say ye?!
I don't see any reason why restraining an Astral Monk's physical arms would also restrain their astral arms. It's actually one of the major strengths of the subclass... there's no specific action associated with the summoning of the arms (No equivalent to "Somatic" or "Vocal" components). As long as the Monk is conscious and has Ki, they can just pop out the arms in any weird situation where they're otherwise restrained. I think that's part of why the arms persist for 10 minutes... most stuff meant simply for combat has a 1 minute duration, since that's how long most fights are assumed to be. But the 10 minute time limit gives them more use for utility purposes (like breaking out of restraints, or scaling a wall).
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Thanks for your response!
One note: As I understand it, the Astral Arms can only be used to make unarmed attacks. Beyond the one-time area effect damage upon activation, the only additional benefits of the arms are the extra 5 feet of reach, the Force Damage type, and the possibility of being able to disengage without an Attack of Opportunity when you're 10 feet away from an enemy whose reach is only 5 feet. And, as you say, you can do this for 10 minutes, which is pretty great. However, things like grappling, shoving, or climbing with the arms would not be possible, due to their spectral nature.
I do think it would be pretty cool to be able to do those things with the arms, but that's how it goes in our games.
It sort if implies they can make strength checks and saves (using wisdom). I understand deciding against playing that way though.
Yeah I've seen multiple discussions about the subject and that little bit about strength checks/saves does seem to imply that you should be able to use the arms for more than just unarmed strikes. I haven't yet found a discussion where that ruling is the consensus, though. I'll politely ask my DM about it and see what he says. Like I say, I think it would be pretty cool to be able to do those things!
The problem is that it is implied, not stated. When following RAW strictly, implied is not enough.
That's pretty interesting. I always interpreted them as viable arms that can do any action the Monk is capable of... and that did just come from the description stating that WIS can be used in place of STR for checks and saving throws. I never really thought that the description of the arms doesn't really clarify just how "solid" they are for any purpose other than attacking. Still, within the campaign I'm playing with friends, our Astral monk uses them in that way, and so far it's been fun.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
Yeah I’m sure some DM’s wouldn’t have a problem with using the arms for some things, but I don’t think they would be capable of using weapons to get the reach, or picking items up. They deliver force damage and if they were solid I would assume they would do bludgeoning damage like your fists instead.
Would you allow them to use the arms to reach keys to a jail cell 10 feet away? Use them to aid climbing?
I just assumed that the use of WIS for STR checks and saving throws was just from their presence (just like the visage let’s you see normally in darkness just by it being there) not because they are doing the actual lifting etc.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
That explanation makes sense to me! Also, if they were solid, I imagine there might be manacles to restrain them, as well. I'm definitely not trying to push the issue with my DM. Just an interesting question to think about.
Using your WIS to allow the arms to do Strength checks and Strength saving throws implies that the arms have some use as an alternative to using your own arms for doing strength-based things.
But since it uses your WIS then I would suggest that they are only solid enough for the Strength check/saving throw when you consciously decide that they need to be.
However, since they can't replace DEX checks/saving throws then I don't they would provide any amount of finesse in their use.
A quick look at Athletics and other uses for Strength checks gives an idea of their usage.
Presumably Dr Octavius style arms whilst avoiding copyright :-)
Another compelling explanation. Thanks for your response!