So I haven't read any of the Forgotten Realms stories/novels. I just started running Hoard of the Dragon Queen for my group and was idly planning ahead some encounters for the road to Waterdeep. I'm eyeing the High Moors for an encounter to introduce Lizard Folk.
I notice the only settlement along there on the map is Dragonspear Castle. I look it up. It's all wars and battles with fiends, dragons, a storied history.
...why does the Tradeway still go *right through it*?! Wouldn't everyone just stay the hell away from there?!
Because a castle needs trade for support. You don't build a trade road to bypass a strategically important fortification.
I understand why it initially went there, lol! Makes total sense.
But... war and fiends and dragons. Doesn't sound like the town you want to drive your merchant caravan through. Is it that things have since calmed down? Are there new tenants of the castle? (I fully understand I'm in the driver's seat for my own game, but I'm just curious about the established lore.)
Also, keep in mind 2 things about roads and castles 1) castles are built on defensible ground overlooking the road so the castle owner can tax the traffic for their “protection”. While demons might not be that interested, dragons certainly would be. 2) roads follow the path of least resistance - flattest ground, fewest hills/slopes, straightest paths, etc. moving a road in a mideveal setting is a huge undertaking as you have to find or make a better route that avoids the problem area by a significant margin - even Magic based “road building” is going to be a massive and expensive undertaking. It’s probably cheaper and easier to hire some idiot adventurers to go remove the dragon/bandits/demons/whatever than to reset the road to avoid them.
If that logic works for you, great. Not here to criticize how you want things to go in your campaigns.
I was curious about the lore of Dragonspear, and hadn't found much in a cursory online search. To me, the few factoids I could find seemed more than sufficient -- and a big enough financial risk -- that merchants would simply steer their caravans around it at a healthy distance.
But it sounds like the place's current situation is not that dire.
Because there is no other way for the road too the North you got High Moor which/where is almost always infested by undead. To the South you got thick Trollbark Forest and Hills, there is no other space for the road, (btw the forest and hills themselves are problematic as well).
But as you can imagine, road trade between Baldur's Gate and Waterdeep in 14-15th DR century became all time low, both are port cities and naval trade is more efficient anyway(Toril is experiencing the age of discovery as you know, Amn driven from Chult, BG trying to get it while Maztica returned etc). Scornubel, Triel and other settlements East of Elturel now all see Baldur's Gate as their prime trading center, if you look at recent resources and lore you'll see that Baldur's Gate started to overshadow Waterdeep as a trade center. And while not big, Dragonspears location has some role in it. Those towns simply can not send their goods North as there is a Yuan-Ti nation in/around Serpent Hills too (Najara).
So in short that trade road is almost considered dead. Which is kinda bad for Daggerford and some small stops along the way like taverns n such(Wood Elves in Misty Forest might be happy with it though)
For the purposes of the way the module was written, Hoard of the Dragon Queen seems to regard the route as fairly typical and well-trodden. But they may not have been giving it much thought. Either way, what you and others have suggested makes a lot of sense.
It is(well trodden), especially after the Argent Crusade thing road became much more usable, but either way, it is not as busy as it used to be. Both Waterdeep and Baldur's Gate patrol the roads as its about showing strength, but in the end real trade is naval lately, the reason they care for the road simply a matter of sovereignity, they are both city states and members of Lords Alliance but both are trying to assert their authority to their neighbouring settlements and hinterland (without resorting to violence ofcourse). Waterdeep competes with both Neverwinter to North and BG to South, and as Elturel thing happened in close past, BG has no nearby competitors left. (not to mention Amn suffered greatly from Maztica' dissapearancei loss of Chult and some internal strife further fueling BG's growth along with constant treasures incoming from Fort Beluarian/Chult BG stock prices are rising rapidly :P)
First of all if you haven’t read the wiki (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Dragonspear_Castle?so=search) you should it’s probably the most complete single source. the castle seems to be abandoned at present so relatively minor monsters probably inhabit it. As for the trail, it stays where it is since moving it is far worse than leaving it. The Trollbark forest is full of trolls and monsters and the high moor is, if anything even more dangerous. So there is no safer path that is anything like as easy to travel that you could shift to. let’s keep one other thing in mind as well, while much of the Waterdeep to Baldur’s Gate trade does go by sea (despite the various pirates you have to contend with) there is still plenty of overland trade. Waterdeep not Baldur’s Gate is the preeminent city on the sword coast with nearly 2,000,000 ( yes million) inhabitants. For comparison Baldur’s Gate has about 125,000 and Neverwinter has less than 50,000. So about 10 times more caravans are built in Waterdeep for long distance trade than are built in Baldur’s Gate and similarly about 10 times as many incoming ( To Baldur’s Gate from south and east) are headed to Waterdeep rather than ending in Baldur’s Gate.
This comes from the wiki you have linked "By the Year of the Ageless One, 1479 DR, Baldur's Gate was Faerûn's most powerful and important city, and it was once again stable"
I am quite aware of the population of Waterdeep, though your knowledge of WAterdeep is errored, 2 million written in wiki, includes hinterland population aswell, namely people living in neighbouring/bordering farming settlements etc. While in Baldur's Gate demographics such data is not included in population given in wiki. Waterdeep is a city which does not claim rule outside of it's borders directly, however Baldur's Gate changed that attitude and started expansionism. "As of the late 14 century DR more than 100,000 people made their home in the city proper of Waterdeep"
Since Volo's book about Waterdeep, calling it the pearl of civilization and biggest city of Sword Coast(which is around since long before 5e), we all know that Waterdeep is more populated than all Western cities. I have played many campaign as a member of Assumbar Family in Waterdeep, i know well that many caravans are being built, Waterdeep's land trade however is not to South, most caravans use Amphail, Red Larch; Golden Fields, Triboar, Yartar route. Why? Because Waterdeep is dependent on Goldenfields grain, and Amphail husbandry. Due to over settlement, currently Waterdeep's per capita wealth is lower than Baldur's :Gate, guard wages is a proof for that, lowest Flaming Fist members get more than 1 gold coin a day, while Waterdeep guards get 6 golds monthly. Anyway, you like comparing numbers, but if population meant wealth per capita, the world we live in would be a much different place. Waterdeeps total revenue might be greater than any other city, yet this does not make it the richest city, profit margin and salaries prove which city states are richer than others in Lord's Alliance.
So I haven't read any of the Forgotten Realms stories/novels. I just started running Hoard of the Dragon Queen for my group and was idly planning ahead some encounters for the road to Waterdeep. I'm eyeing the High Moors for an encounter to introduce Lizard Folk.
I notice the only settlement along there on the map is Dragonspear Castle. I look it up. It's all wars and battles with fiends, dragons, a storied history.
...why does the Tradeway still go *right through it*?! Wouldn't everyone just stay the hell away from there?!
Because a castle needs trade for support. You don't build a trade road to bypass a strategically important fortification.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I understand why it initially went there, lol! Makes total sense.
But... war and fiends and dragons. Doesn't sound like the town you want to drive your merchant caravan through. Is it that things have since calmed down? Are there new tenants of the castle? (I fully understand I'm in the driver's seat for my own game, but I'm just curious about the established lore.)
It's had problems with fiends and dragons. It's not plagued by fiends and dragons all the time.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Also, keep in mind 2 things about roads and castles
1) castles are built on defensible ground overlooking the road so the castle owner can tax the traffic for their “protection”. While demons might not be that interested, dragons certainly would be.
2) roads follow the path of least resistance - flattest ground, fewest hills/slopes, straightest paths, etc. moving a road in a mideveal setting is a huge undertaking as you have to find or make a better route that avoids the problem area by a significant margin - even Magic based “road building” is going to be a massive and expensive undertaking. It’s probably cheaper and easier to hire some idiot adventurers to go remove the dragon/bandits/demons/whatever than to reset the road to avoid them.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
If that logic works for you, great. Not here to criticize how you want things to go in your campaigns.
I was curious about the lore of Dragonspear, and hadn't found much in a cursory online search. To me, the few factoids I could find seemed more than sufficient -- and a big enough financial risk -- that merchants would simply steer their caravans around it at a healthy distance.
But it sounds like the place's current situation is not that dire.
Because there is no other way for the road too the North you got High Moor which/where is almost always infested by undead. To the South you got thick Trollbark Forest and Hills, there is no other space for the road, (btw the forest and hills themselves are problematic as well).
But as you can imagine, road trade between Baldur's Gate and Waterdeep in 14-15th DR century became all time low, both are port cities and naval trade is more efficient anyway(Toril is experiencing the age of discovery as you know, Amn driven from Chult, BG trying to get it while Maztica returned etc). Scornubel, Triel and other settlements East of Elturel now all see Baldur's Gate as their prime trading center, if you look at recent resources and lore you'll see that Baldur's Gate started to overshadow Waterdeep as a trade center. And while not big, Dragonspears location has some role in it. Those towns simply can not send their goods North as there is a Yuan-Ti nation in/around Serpent Hills too (Najara).
So in short that trade road is almost considered dead. Which is kinda bad for Daggerford and some small stops along the way like taverns n such(Wood Elves in Misty Forest might be happy with it though)
Oh, very interesting! Thank you!
For the purposes of the way the module was written, Hoard of the Dragon Queen seems to regard the route as fairly typical and well-trodden. But they may not have been giving it much thought. Either way, what you and others have suggested makes a lot of sense.
It is(well trodden), especially after the Argent Crusade thing road became much more usable, but either way, it is not as busy as it used to be. Both Waterdeep and Baldur's Gate patrol the roads as its about showing strength, but in the end real trade is naval lately, the reason they care for the road simply a matter of sovereignity, they are both city states and members of Lords Alliance but both are trying to assert their authority to their neighbouring settlements and hinterland (without resorting to violence ofcourse). Waterdeep competes with both Neverwinter to North and BG to South, and as Elturel thing happened in close past, BG has no nearby competitors left. (not to mention Amn suffered greatly from Maztica' dissapearancei loss of Chult and some internal strife further fueling BG's growth along with constant treasures incoming from Fort Beluarian/Chult BG stock prices are rising rapidly :P)
First of all if you haven’t read the wiki (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Dragonspear_Castle?so=search) you should it’s probably the most complete single source.
the castle seems to be abandoned at present so relatively minor monsters probably inhabit it. As for the trail, it stays where it is since moving it is far worse than leaving it. The Trollbark forest is full of trolls and monsters and the high moor is, if anything even more dangerous. So there is no safer path that is anything like as easy to travel that you could shift to.
let’s keep one other thing in mind as well, while much of the Waterdeep to Baldur’s Gate trade does go by sea (despite the various pirates you have to contend with) there is still plenty of overland trade. Waterdeep not Baldur’s Gate is the preeminent city on the sword coast with nearly 2,000,000 ( yes million) inhabitants. For comparison Baldur’s Gate has about 125,000 and Neverwinter has less than 50,000. So about 10 times more caravans are built in Waterdeep for long distance trade than are built in Baldur’s Gate and similarly about 10 times as many incoming ( To Baldur’s Gate from south and east) are headed to Waterdeep rather than ending in Baldur’s Gate.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
This comes from the wiki you have linked "By the Year of the Ageless One, 1479 DR, Baldur's Gate was Faerûn's most powerful and important city, and it was once again stable"
I am quite aware of the population of Waterdeep, though your knowledge of WAterdeep is errored, 2 million written in wiki, includes hinterland population aswell, namely people living in neighbouring/bordering farming settlements etc. While in Baldur's Gate demographics such data is not included in population given in wiki. Waterdeep is a city which does not claim rule outside of it's borders directly, however Baldur's Gate changed that attitude and started expansionism. "As of the late 14 century DR more than 100,000 people made their home in the city proper of Waterdeep"
Since Volo's book about Waterdeep, calling it the pearl of civilization and biggest city of Sword Coast(which is around since long before 5e), we all know that Waterdeep is more populated than all Western cities. I have played many campaign as a member of Assumbar Family in Waterdeep, i know well that many caravans are being built, Waterdeep's land trade however is not to South, most caravans use Amphail, Red Larch; Golden Fields, Triboar, Yartar route. Why? Because Waterdeep is dependent on Goldenfields grain, and Amphail husbandry. Due to over settlement, currently Waterdeep's per capita wealth is lower than Baldur's :Gate, guard wages is a proof for that, lowest Flaming Fist members get more than 1 gold coin a day, while Waterdeep guards get 6 golds monthly. Anyway, you like comparing numbers, but if population meant wealth per capita, the world we live in would be a much different place. Waterdeeps total revenue might be greater than any other city, yet this does not make it the richest city, profit margin and salaries prove which city states are richer than others in Lord's Alliance.