It is indeed a difficult subject. If there were an oppressed minority who felt they were being terribly misrepresented or associated with evil by depictions of Hades then yes it would be an equivalent situation and we would need to consider that as well. I am not sure such a group actually exists though.
It is a tough call where to draw the line. There are some people who are fine with you describing the god they currently believe in within a fictional setting and even poking fun at it while others get very deeply offended. If people are raising the issue and feel like they are being associated with evil, or are deeply offended, then maybe it is something to reconsider. D&D isn't a southpark episode. It isn't about critiquing religion or pointing out the humor/absurdity/hypocrisy of anyone's beliefs. It is about collective storytelling and the story is not generally a critique of religion. I don't think anything is lost if we say 'soul jar' instead of phylactery. In fact I think it may well be easier for new players to understand. I wouldn't equate being more sensitive with what contend we adopt for D&D to general self censorship of speech as a whole. You can be sensitive in your D&D game while still laughing at southpark when they make fun of a particular religions beliefs/quirks/etc.
Of course if you want to play a game where you critique christian beliefs and that is a central theme then you wouldn't really be able to avoid offending some people and it becomes more about everyone at the table being ok with the story being told, and maybe some sensitivity when discussing the game with outsiders.
ETA. The best way to handle this might be just lines and veils at your table with respect to what your players in particular are ok with. But I would expect if there are a lot of people who are offended by a particular thing WOTC might well choose to drop a term or god or whatever from the game.
Oh I agree, for the most part. Offense is a tricky one, mainly because there is a difference between causing offence, and taking offence. Setting out to cause offence can be an issue, while taking offence often comes off as entitled.
BTW mate, I did say I was a pagan and witch, and mainly into the Chthonic underworld deities and the Titans. Triple dark god (Hades/Tarterus/Erebus) and Triple dark goddess (Persephone/Hecate/Nyx), while my occult system is mainly built around the Titans and Titanids. Even if I'm just a community of one (which I'm not), don't I count?
Mind you, for a much greater offence, look at how 'witches' have been mis-represented, and not just in popular media. Its been literally murder. I still wouldn't try to control others words.
Its a bit late for caffeine and chocolate covered confectionary right now. Though another shot of spiced rum might help.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
When faced with an issue, most people would rather be negative than find a solution.
Oh I agree, for the most part. Offense is a tricky one, mainly because there is a difference between causing offence, and taking offence. Setting out to cause offence can be an issue, while taking offence often comes off as entitled.
BTW mate, I did say I was a pagan and witch, and mainly into the Chthonic underworld deities and the Titans. Triple dark god (Hades/Tarterus/Erebus) and Triple dark goddess (Persephone/Hecate/Nyx), while my occult system is mainly built around the Titans and Titanids. Even if I'm just a community of one (which I'm not), don't I count?
Mind you, for a much greater offence, look at how 'witches' have been mis-represented, and not just in popular media. Its been literally murder. I still wouldn't try to control others words.
Its a bit late for caffeine and chocolate covered confectionary right now. Though another shot of spiced rum might help.
Completely agree with this - most of the dark gods and goddesses are villainised (with the exception of Persephone usually). Some famous examples of misrepresentation of witches include the Salem Witch Trials and the persecution of witches all over Europe( most of which included the persecution of women just for… being women.
I don’t think it’s wrong to use some of these terms, as long as you aren’t doing so to be offensive. You can’t always guarantee when people are going to take offence, and very often at least one person is going to take offence, so it’s always good to ask people if they’re okay with the terms being used
(Sorry if this doesn’t make much sense my brain isn’t braining.)
We can talk in circles about the greek oragin or not unil some one saus its a marigo round. If true, then it might be in the similar vein of calling the serpentine god like reptiles of Asian folklore "dragons," or regardless if its a proper fit for the creature. Either way. Whatever meaning the term had meant has since became knoen for something else thanks to how language progresses and regresses
My King JMes Bible for instance has about 10 or so times it says pisseth. When it was written centuroes ago, that probably wasn't a swear word. Noe a days, would net you a PG rating at the very least. Natre of the beast and all
Back to the topic at hand, me extensive knowledge of Jewish tradition and practices can woefully fit in a show box, and any Jewish blood in me is fairly watered down. That said, my understanding of its use in the real world is an object meant to aid in prayer. The contents of it is a scripture that was written down and placed inside by its wearer, usualy something very personal to the person that owns it such as a favorite line from the Torra or a scripture that relates to what they are praying. Either way a personal thing
This isn't the only time its been missused, if that is the correct word, in popular culture either. Modana's die amother day had her strapping one on on her arm as many felt it was disrespectul. Dragon age also uses them as a container od blood of a mage so if they ever runaway they can be hunted down and aprihended, though i don't remember much contraversy over that.
Either way the context for the longest time, perhaps say wjen a bunch of guys playing war games in their basement were inventing the table top rpg, thought it sounded cool and went for it. Not the first or last time that has happend. D&D and Pathfinder still use Rakshasa and Devas; beings from the still practiced religion of Hinduism. Most things in popculture involving Voodoo. Neon Genisis Evangalian's use of Christian iconography and onther names and symbles.
Its those things that if D&D says it wants to be more inclusive, less racist, these maybe the areas it should have focused on
As "phylactery" has multiple meanings, and is not the original Hebrew term for the religious item, I personally find it less problematic than basing the realm of "Gehenna", a term taking from Judaism, conceptually strongly on greed ...
Here's a point of view: We need to get away from the idea that words - in and of themselves - can be a source of insult or offense. What we need is to focus on intent, and get upset when people try to hurt, rather when they try to communicate.
Say I felt, personally, that klingons are just space orcs. And by that comparison I mean that both orcs and klingons are cool, alien (not necessarily space alien) races with deep cultural heritages and so on. Whether you're a DnD player, or a Trekkie, or an actual orc or klingon - you really have no reason to be upset, because I'm trying to say something positive. Not pick a fight or denigrate either.
So maybe if we all try to listen for intent, rather than look for words to be upset about, it's better for everyone involved.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
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It is indeed a difficult subject. If there were an oppressed minority who felt they were being terribly misrepresented or associated with evil by depictions of Hades then yes it would be an equivalent situation and we would need to consider that as well. I am not sure such a group actually exists though.
It is a tough call where to draw the line. There are some people who are fine with you describing the god they currently believe in within a fictional setting and even poking fun at it while others get very deeply offended. If people are raising the issue and feel like they are being associated with evil, or are deeply offended, then maybe it is something to reconsider. D&D isn't a southpark episode. It isn't about critiquing religion or pointing out the humor/absurdity/hypocrisy of anyone's beliefs. It is about collective storytelling and the story is not generally a critique of religion. I don't think anything is lost if we say 'soul jar' instead of phylactery. In fact I think it may well be easier for new players to understand. I wouldn't equate being more sensitive with what contend we adopt for D&D to general self censorship of speech as a whole. You can be sensitive in your D&D game while still laughing at southpark when they make fun of a particular religions beliefs/quirks/etc.
Of course if you want to play a game where you critique christian beliefs and that is a central theme then you wouldn't really be able to avoid offending some people and it becomes more about everyone at the table being ok with the story being told, and maybe some sensitivity when discussing the game with outsiders.
ETA. The best way to handle this might be just lines and veils at your table with respect to what your players in particular are ok with. But I would expect if there are a lot of people who are offended by a particular thing WOTC might well choose to drop a term or god or whatever from the game.
Oh I agree, for the most part. Offense is a tricky one, mainly because there is a difference between causing offence, and taking offence. Setting out to cause offence can be an issue, while taking offence often comes off as entitled.
BTW mate, I did say I was a pagan and witch, and mainly into the Chthonic underworld deities and the Titans. Triple dark god (Hades/Tarterus/Erebus) and Triple dark goddess (Persephone/Hecate/Nyx), while my occult system is mainly built around the Titans and Titanids. Even if I'm just a community of one (which I'm not), don't I count?
Mind you, for a much greater offence, look at how 'witches' have been mis-represented, and not just in popular media. Its been literally murder. I still wouldn't try to control others words.
Its a bit late for caffeine and chocolate covered confectionary right now. Though another shot of spiced rum might help.
When faced with an issue, most people would rather be negative than find a solution.
Completely agree with this - most of the dark gods and goddesses are villainised (with the exception of Persephone usually). Some famous examples of misrepresentation of witches include the Salem Witch Trials and the persecution of witches all over Europe( most of which included the persecution of women just for… being women.
I don’t think it’s wrong to use some of these terms, as long as you aren’t doing so to be offensive. You can’t always guarantee when people are going to take offence, and very often at least one person is going to take offence, so it’s always good to ask people if they’re okay with the terms being used
(Sorry if this doesn’t make much sense my brain isn’t braining.)
We can talk in circles about the greek oragin or not unil some one saus its a marigo round. If true, then it might be in the similar vein of calling the serpentine god like reptiles of Asian folklore "dragons," or regardless if its a proper fit for the creature. Either way. Whatever meaning the term had meant has since became knoen for something else thanks to how language progresses and regresses
My King JMes Bible for instance has about 10 or so times it says pisseth. When it was written centuroes ago, that probably wasn't a swear word. Noe a days, would net you a PG rating at the very least. Natre of the beast and all
Back to the topic at hand, me extensive knowledge of Jewish tradition and practices can woefully fit in a show box, and any Jewish blood in me is fairly watered down. That said, my understanding of its use in the real world is an object meant to aid in prayer. The contents of it is a scripture that was written down and placed inside by its wearer, usualy something very personal to the person that owns it such as a favorite line from the Torra or a scripture that relates to what they are praying. Either way a personal thing
This isn't the only time its been missused, if that is the correct word, in popular culture either. Modana's die amother day had her strapping one on on her arm as many felt it was disrespectul. Dragon age also uses them as a container od blood of a mage so if they ever runaway they can be hunted down and aprihended, though i don't remember much contraversy over that.
Either way the context for the longest time, perhaps say wjen a bunch of guys playing war games in their basement were inventing the table top rpg, thought it sounded cool and went for it. Not the first or last time that has happend. D&D and Pathfinder still use Rakshasa and Devas; beings from the still practiced religion of Hinduism. Most things in popculture involving Voodoo. Neon Genisis Evangalian's use of Christian iconography and onther names and symbles.
Its those things that if D&D says it wants to be more inclusive, less racist, these maybe the areas it should have focused on
As "phylactery" has multiple meanings, and is not the original Hebrew term for the religious item, I personally find it less problematic than basing the realm of "Gehenna", a term taking from Judaism, conceptually strongly on greed ...
Here's a point of view: We need to get away from the idea that words - in and of themselves - can be a source of insult or offense. What we need is to focus on intent, and get upset when people try to hurt, rather when they try to communicate.
Say I felt, personally, that klingons are just space orcs. And by that comparison I mean that both orcs and klingons are cool, alien (not necessarily space alien) races with deep cultural heritages and so on. Whether you're a DnD player, or a Trekkie, or an actual orc or klingon - you really have no reason to be upset, because I'm trying to say something positive. Not pick a fight or denigrate either.
So maybe if we all try to listen for intent, rather than look for words to be upset about, it's better for everyone involved.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.