this goes somewhat against and what i'm going for at the same time, if there's a skeleton that's sapient enough to have control of their actions(like the default evil skeletons) that isn't evil, but is not sapient enough to suffer, neutral and potentially good necromancy is hypothetically possible(not lawful necromancy, that would require not desecrating a corpse)
Obviously, a lot of this is opinion. Still: The standard skeleton has neither mind nor soul. It's ... like an LLM, a 'magic AI'. It just follows instructions, it has no will or cognitive power of it's own. It's not evil because the skeleton is evil, it's evil because messing with other people's remains is evil.
Of course it's stat block indicates that it has cognitive power of it's own. I reject that. But that's mostly just a traditionalist view. We could just as easily say it's a free-willed undead. Doesn't change anything.
Maybe there's a better way to look at it: Could you use Animate Object to animate a pile of bones? By my reckoning, sure. Would that be evil? Sure. You're still messing around with the remains of the deceased, and you shouldn't.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I mean, dead corpses have been used to advance human society as far back as the dark ages. Many surgeons use corpses in order to practice before being allowed to operate on live individuals. They cut open dead bodies and fiddle around with people's entrails and hearts but no one calls them evil, maybe uncomfortable at best.
Using a person's corpse is as evil as the reason you are doing it. Grave digging for loot and wealth? Evil. Trying to figure out why a plague is fatal and how it may be stopped? Good. Adventuring ancient sites in order to learn history and one's culture? Neutral.
Donated corpses. Not random people dug up at the local cemetary. And quite frankly, I doubt a necromancer would find a solid supply of volunteers.
There's always planescape though. The Dustmen did just that: Here's some money now, you'll pay us back after you die. Moral? Well ..... arguably, sure.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I mean, dead corpses have been used to advance human society as far back as the dark ages. Many surgeons use corpses in order to practice before being allowed to operate on live individuals. They cut open dead bodies and fiddle around with people's entrails and hearts but no one calls them evil, maybe uncomfortable at best.
Using a person's corpse is as evil as the reason you are doing it. Grave digging for loot and wealth? Evil. Trying to figure out why a plague is fatal and how it may be stopped? Good. Adventuring ancient sites in order to learn history and one's culture? Neutral.
despite dnd canonically being earlier than modern day, most societies in the forgotten realms mirror modern day standards, so desecration of corpses is still frowned upon, but it's not necessarily "evil" but probably chaotic, the skeletons made by black magic(the exact thing that animate dead is) are evil so creating them is evil, this is a pitch on a way to not create evil skeletons without creating undue suffering
I'm sure someone's already said this, but this discussion makes me think about being an organ donor or deciding to donate your body to science. If people have the right to bodily autonomy, then why wouldn't that right extend to post-mortem consent for reanimation? If it's used for anything awful or malicious, that's a hard no. But what about useful applications, like how doctors and scientists use cadavers to study the body and practice surgical procedures? It could even be used for helpful things, like sending reanimated bodies into super dangerous jobs (e.g. deep-sea work or mining) to keep living people safe.
Rereading this, I still stand by it, but I think I'm going to take a break and go touch some grass now.
Obviously, a lot of this is opinion. Still: The standard skeleton has neither mind nor soul. It's ... like an LLM, a 'magic AI'. It just follows instructions, it has no will or cognitive power of it's own. It's not evil because the skeleton is evil, it's evil because messing with other people's remains is evil.
Of course it's stat block indicates that it has cognitive power of it's own. I reject that. But that's mostly just a traditionalist view. We could just as easily say it's a free-willed undead. Doesn't change anything.
Maybe there's a better way to look at it: Could you use Animate Object to animate a pile of bones? By my reckoning, sure. Would that be evil? Sure. You're still messing around with the remains of the deceased, and you shouldn't.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I mean, dead corpses have been used to advance human society as far back as the dark ages. Many surgeons use corpses in order to practice before being allowed to operate on live individuals. They cut open dead bodies and fiddle around with people's entrails and hearts but no one calls them evil, maybe uncomfortable at best.
Using a person's corpse is as evil as the reason you are doing it. Grave digging for loot and wealth? Evil. Trying to figure out why a plague is fatal and how it may be stopped? Good. Adventuring ancient sites in order to learn history and one's culture? Neutral.
Donated corpses. Not random people dug up at the local cemetary. And quite frankly, I doubt a necromancer would find a solid supply of volunteers.
There's always planescape though. The Dustmen did just that: Here's some money now, you'll pay us back after you die. Moral? Well ..... arguably, sure.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
despite dnd canonically being earlier than modern day, most societies in the forgotten realms mirror modern day standards, so desecration of corpses is still frowned upon, but it's not necessarily "evil" but probably chaotic, the skeletons made by black magic(the exact thing that animate dead is) are evil so creating them is evil, this is a pitch on a way to not create evil skeletons without creating undue suffering
I'm sure someone's already said this, but this discussion makes me think about being an organ donor or deciding to donate your body to science. If people have the right to bodily autonomy, then why wouldn't that right extend to post-mortem consent for reanimation? If it's used for anything awful or malicious, that's a hard no. But what about useful applications, like how doctors and scientists use cadavers to study the body and practice surgical procedures? It could even be used for helpful things, like sending reanimated bodies into super dangerous jobs (e.g. deep-sea work or mining) to keep living people safe.
Rereading this, I still stand by it, but I think I'm going to take a break and go touch some grass now.
-Drew
drewdisario
@drewdisario
Exactly what I was saying.