I want to apologize for this long thread you are about to read. But, if you are like me you want ot make your Eberron game more interesting and grounded on why the Last War stopped. So I am starting this thread. I am starting this thread to kind of expand on the very limited information we have about the Treaty of Thronehold. In this thread, I will explain the information we do have, the sources for this information, and the ideas and thoughts we should move forward within expanding it for community use.
The thing is, this Treaty is Important to the world of Eberron. Not only did it put a stop to the Last War, but it also made a lot of things clear for the world at large. Warforged: Now a race and no longer slaves to their owners. (Though no more can be created as all the forges have been "destroyed".) Sovereignty for multiple nations. (Minus Droaam, Cyre[which is now the destroyed nation known as the Mournland, and the Shadow Marches. We're really not going to even discuss the Demon Wastes in this thread but they too were not included in the Treaty.) and also certain acts were abolished. (Duels to the death in Aundair, etc, etc)
Each section will be placed in a SPOILERS box as to not overload the thread, but also so you can read which part of the Treaty you would like at your leisure.
Now, let's see what World Anvil says about the Treaty:
Amongst the provisions of the Treaty of Thronehold were:
The emancipation of Warforged, whilst at the same time banning the creation of any new Warforged and outlawing the Cannith Creation Forges.
Thaliost, a contested state between Aundair and Thrane was formally ceded to the latter. This hasn't helped quell the tensions between both sides.
Certain acts were forbidden: for example, duels to the death in Aundair were outlawed.
A multi-national military court was established for military criminals, which generally end in Dreadhold Prison. However, this tribunal has only recognition in name, since no country actually supports it.
The boundaries of the remaining Five Nations were clearly established, according to their state at the end of the Last War: Aundair lost Thaliost and Thrane acquired it (as mentioned before), Karrnath lost some terrain to Aundair, Breland lost part of its vast territory to both Darguun Regional Governments and Droaam (even though they don't recognize the latter, and neither does any other territory), and Thrane got a few places which no one else wanted to have aside from Thaliost. Of course, this means Cyre effectively ceases to be a nation, with all of its refugees either staying within Brelish lands (in New Cyre) or thrown away anywhere.
PURPOSE
A multinational treaty to end the last war.
We have a great starting point here, but there are other sources online that basically say the same thing. And let's be very real here, it says AMONGST the provisions. Meaning; these could not have been the only ones. After 100 plus years of conflict are we to assume that there were only 5 major things discussed in this Treaty? With the Five Nations taking the lead and the other newly named and formed sovereign states had nothing else to add?
So, while I will not go into what else was added in the first post what I would like to do is discuss what was in the Treaty and how we as a fan community will expand on that.
Keith Baker said on his website back in June of 2015 about the Warforged when asked about them.
One thing I am curious about is why did the Treaty of Thronehold include the destruction or disassembly of all of the creation forges? Why do that when you’re also including in there that all warforged are considered individuals rather than property? The way I see it, it’s like neutering an entire race…
The fact that the Treaty of Thronehold helps the warforged is incidental. Its primary purpose was to limit the power of both the Five Nations and House Cannith. At the end of the war, every nation had warforged armies of various sizes. Disbanding these armies was a symbol of standing down from military footing. In my opinion, the original draft of the treaty ordered that all warforged be destroyed; shifting this to freedom for the warforged took a serious amount of lobbying on the part of sympathizers who’d worked with warforged over the wars. But the primary intention was eliminating standing armies, and I doubt that even many of the sympathizers considered this “the birth of a new race.”
Meanwhile, the destruction of the creation forges was a way to rein in the power of House Cannith. Left unchecked, Cannith could produce armies of warforged. Already there’s reason to question if the Five Nations truly have the power to enforce the Korth Edicts; no one liked the idea of Cannith being able to field an army of its own.
So both of these actions were about the balance of power in Khorvaire, not a grand vision of the sanctity of warforged life; in all likelihood, it was a near thing that the warforged weren’t destroyed along with the forges.
-1,005YK In time, a new leader set out to unify Khorvaire, and it quickly became apparent to the patriarchs of the dragonmarked houses that Galifar I might well succeed where Karrn had failed. When house leaders met Galifar in the city of Korth at the height of his drive to unite the Five Nations, the would-be king swore to protect the houses, agreeing to a number of provisions that would ensure their continued economic strength. In return, the houses agreed to restrictions on their political power. For a thousand years, the Korth Edicts prevented any member of a dragonmarked house from holding a grant of land and placed limits on the size of house enclaves and the armed forces garrisoned there. Special provisions were made for House Deneith, which retained the right to assemble military forces for mercenary service. The edicts further specified that no member of the aristocracy of Galifar could be bound to a member of a dragonmarked house in marriage without one of the two giving up all heritage and rights. Since the houses did not own land, the edicts dictated a system of rents to be paid to the crown in exchange for the territory the houses required for their needs.
The Warforged were going to be dismantled and destroyed until some of the folk in Khorvaire thought better of it, destroying the Warforged just did not appeal to their better nature. Thankfully, this did not happen and now we have one of the most beloved races in this setting. Who doesn't love the Warforged? (If you're thinking, hmm, I don't like Warforged then that's fine. But you probably hate Baby Yoda too and there are consequences for that line of thinking in geekdom. lol jk)
But what is also a part of the provision was the destruction of all Canith Forges that created the Warforged. What a freaking blow to House Cannith, right? I mean, sure they had the money from the Last War but they literally lost their main house in Cyre during the Day of Mourning and the Host only knows how many great artificers and scions to their House. The reason these are highlighted as one of the first main provisions on almost every listing about the Treaty is probably a coincidence. Yet, let's look at it that it's not a coincidence.
A new race, that most did not expect to be a new race, has been named. That's huge. But what would Zilargo think? Little tinker hearts that they are, a human-created race made out of stone, leather, metal, and magic would be beyond them. And to accept them they would need some kind of stipulation in my honest opinion.
Karrnath wouldn't have much to say, I would think because of their own standing army. While they had Warforged, they really had more undead than anything. Thrane would have been against them, I am sure. (Up until the point they realized they could become one with the Flame, then their opinion would change.) Cyre had no place at the table, Breland and Aundair would want to see them gone as well. (This is me assuming.)
So, this is where I will end this first part of hopefully a long discussion about this Treaty and how we can make it a real living document. Think of it as the Treaty of Versailles. (Wow, I spelled that right on the first try lol nice! Grammarly didn't check me lol) Or the Geneva Conventions. What would be the give and take for this first provision?
Treaty Provisions again:
Provisions
Amongst the provisions of the Treaty of Thronehold were:
The emancipation of Warforged, whilst at the same time banning the creation of any new Warforged and outlawing the Cannith Creation Forges.
Thaliost, a contested state between Aundair and Thrane was formally ceded to the latter. This hasn't helped quell the tensions between both sides.
Certain acts were forbidden: for example, duels to the death in Aundair were outlawed.
A multi-national military court was established for military criminals, which generally end in Dreadhold Prison. However, this tribunal has only recognition in name, since no country actually supports it.
The boundaries of the remaining Five Nations were clearly established, according to their state at the end of the Last War: Aundair lost Thaliost and Thrane acquired it (as mentioned before), Karrnath lost some terrain to Aundair, Breland lost part of its vast territory to both Darguun Regional Governments and Droaam (even though they don't recognize the latter, and neither does any other territory), and Thrane got a few places which no one else wanted to have aside from Thaliost. Of course, this means Cyre effectively ceases to be a nation, with all of its refugees either staying within Brelish lands (in New Cyre) or thrown away anywhere.
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"...Debts must always be paid, sometimes in more than blood and gold. But this is Ordo Ursa," Ren places his hand on Erakas's chest, right where the Dragonborn's heart is. "Right here. And it always has been and always will be. Don't ever forget that. Because I won't."
Serandis Mendaen (Aereni Elven Rogue/maybe one day Wizard)- Project Point Playtest
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"...Debts must always be paid, sometimes in more than blood and gold. But this is Ordo Ursa," Ren places his hand on Erakas's chest, right where the Dragonborn's heart is. "Right here. And it always has been and always will be. Don't ever forget that. Because I won't."
Serandis Mendaen (Aereni Elven Rogue/maybe one day Wizard)- Project Point Playtest
On this first provision, the outlawing of the Forges seems pretty key. I'm on board with the Warforged emancipation being a side effect of neutering House Cannith, but man, what would it have taken to get Cannith to agree? And how was the destruction of the Forges accomplished? And who oversaw that, inspected the results, and how do they keep a handle on them not being re-created? The analog today, is of course, nuclear weapons and the international systems and entities set up to inspect and report on nuclear programs worldwide. While at first blush that seems pretty sophisticated for a fantasy world, magic makes it much more feasible, I think. So, I'm left with two avenues to explore:
1. Why would House Cannith agree to this?
2. How was the destruction of the Forges accomplished and who verified their destruction and what is being done to keep the Forges banned?
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ey/em/eirs, or they/them works, too (just not he). Role-playing since that keep on those borderlands. I love it so.
Regarding how it was accomplished, I'd say that there are probably Aundairan mages capable of destroying them, or banning that, they could be smashed up (although that brings up the intriguing question of just how protected from physical damage a creation forge is...).
Maybe the Treaty sent a group (possibly the same group that was a part of the now-ignored tribunal) to oversee the destruction of the forges? And regarding how it was enforced, I bet Zilargo had some offerings regarding surveillance. Maybe they even offered a division of the Trust for this? Although that might be a little too much vulnerability for the gnomes...
As for why House Cannith would agree, that's harder, especially since it's been well-established that none of the Nations, or possibly even all of them together have the power to challenge the Houses. The following options present themselves to me:
The Nations really do have the power to challenge Cannith, and strong armed them into it. Cannith was shattered, after all.
House Cannith was in a state of chaos directly after the Mourning. Who knows if they even sent a representative to the Treaty signing? Or maybe they sent multiple, who were unable to present a united front.
The Cannith representative was one of the rare members who believed in the greater good. Normally I wouldn't even entertain the possibility that the Houses would send someone like that to such a vital summit, but again, in the chaos post-Mourning, who knows what happened?
The Twelve somehow got pulled onto the destroy creation forges side, and they persuaded (or "persuaded") Cannith to agree
Cannith was offered something in return. This could be anything from highly favorable trade terms with the Holds to aid in rebuilding their enclaves
A thing to consider. How confident is everyone that the illegal forge Merrix has in Sharn is a secret vs a "secret"?
It's unknown to the populace, might even be unknown to two of the three house branches. But what if Merrix's family were the representatives at Thronehold?
A secret forge would by necessity have to be used in a limited fashion which would still limit their power.
A thing to consider. How confident is everyone that the illegal forge Merrith has in Sharn is a secret vs a "secret"?
It's unknown to the populace, might even be unknown to two of the three house branches. But what if Merrith's family were the representatives at Thronehold?
A secret forge would by necessity have to be used in a limited fashion which would still limit their power.
I like your thinking lol not really about the Treaty itself, but you're right. I wonder how many outside the House actually know about Merrix's forge...? hmm
I am running this game on Friday's where they turned a Forge on. It was an ancient one in Droaam. I call it a Precursor Forge, something Merrix's great-grandfather was working on secretly. Before the war started. They actually met Merrix in my game this past Friday and no one in the party knows about his Forge...yet. I hope they find out about it though!
But you make a good point, I don't know if you meant to either. But I am giving you all the credit! So, Merrix would be fine as head of house to let them destroy the other forges. Not without some quid pro quo, but having his secret forge would be the reason he could let the rest go. Really smart thinking of that!
"...Debts must always be paid, sometimes in more than blood and gold. But this is Ordo Ursa," Ren places his hand on Erakas's chest, right where the Dragonborn's heart is. "Right here. And it always has been and always will be. Don't ever forget that. Because I won't."
Serandis Mendaen (Aereni Elven Rogue/maybe one day Wizard)- Project Point Playtest
On this first provision, the outlawing of the Forges seems pretty key. I'm on board with the Warforged emancipation being a side effect of neutering House Cannith, but man, what would it have taken to get Cannith to agree? And how was the destruction of the Forges accomplished? And who oversaw that, inspected the results, and how do they keep a handle on them not being re-created? The analog today, is of course, nuclear weapons and the international systems and entities set up to inspect and report on nuclear programs worldwide. While at first blush that seems pretty sophisticated for a fantasy world, magic makes it much more feasible, I think. So, I'm left with two avenues to explore:
1. Why would House Cannith agree to this?
2. How was the destruction of the Forges accomplished and who verified their destruction and what is being done to keep the Forges banned?
1.) As stated above, it's probably because Merrix has the hidden and secretive Forge. Again, not without some caveat. We also have to consider the real problem with their bargaining. Their House was almost wiped out. Sure, they have scions and houses all over Khorvaire, but their main foundries and workshops were in Metrol and Cyre itself. Which, as we all know is now the Mournland. House Cannith does have a lot to lose, especially since they have lost so much already. Just trying to hold their position as one of the 12 while Cyre is not being recognized would be a huge problem to I bet.
2.) Dismantling? A Warforged Juggernaut smashing it? (To be honest, would a warforged destroy its own womb?) I would assume some magic, some manpower, under the watchful eyes of the Tribunal. That's a very good question. These are magical founderies, ones with immense power. I mean, they literally create sentient life. So, how do you destroy an artifact? And what is done with the debris? Does it disappear? Is it used in other things? I feel like every question we ask there more and more questions on top of it...lol
Ah, I see why Wizards have not made a more definitive Treaty of Thronehold document...lol :P Well, that's why we're here! :D
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"...Debts must always be paid, sometimes in more than blood and gold. But this is Ordo Ursa," Ren places his hand on Erakas's chest, right where the Dragonborn's heart is. "Right here. And it always has been and always will be. Don't ever forget that. Because I won't."
Serandis Mendaen (Aereni Elven Rogue/maybe one day Wizard)- Project Point Playtest
A thing to consider. How confident is everyone that the illegal forge Merrith has in Sharn is a secret vs a "secret"?
It's unknown to the populace, might even be unknown to two of the three house branches. But what if Merrith's family were the representatives at Thronehold?
A secret forge would by necessity have to be used in a limited fashion which would still limit their power.
I like your thinking lol not really about the Treaty itself, but you're right. I wonder how many outside the House actually know about Merrix's forge...? hmm
I am running this game on Friday's where they turned a Forge on. It was an ancient one in Droaam. I call it a Precursor Forge, something Merrix's great-grandfather was working on secretly. Before the war started. They actually met Merrix in my game this past Friday and no one in the party knows about his Forge...yet. I hope they find out about it though!
But you make a good point, I don't know if you meant to either. But I am giving you all the credit! So, Merrix would be fine as head of house to let them destroy the other forges. Not without some quid pro quo, but having his secret forge would be the reason he could let the rest go. Really smart thinking of that!
Ahaha, I've had one of my groups meet Merrix in my game, and he took them to meet a psiforged, who mentioned Merrix created her. One asked "Merrix, you aren't still making warforged, are you?" Merrix goes "Now then, that's illegal via the Treaty of Thronehold." No Deception needed, characters' suspicions allayed ;D
About destroying an artifact...there's gotta be things that can do it, and with the combined efforts of several nations, I bet they could figure it out. Maybe a combination of non-Cannith artificers and mages? Hell, there could even be an artifact in Morgrave or Arcanix vaults that can destroy eldritch machines...
Regarding how it was accomplished, I'd say that there are probably Aundairan mages capable of destroying them, or banning that, they could be smashed up (although that brings up the intriguing question of just how protected from physical damage a creation forge is...).
Maybe the Treaty sent a group (possibly the same group that was a part of the now-ignored tribunal) to oversee the destruction of the forges? And regarding how it was enforced, I bet Zilargo had some offerings regarding surveillance. Maybe they even offered a division of the Trust for this? Although that might be a little too much vulnerability for the gnomes...
As for why House Cannith would agree, that's harder, especially since it's been well-established that none of the Nations, or possibly even all of them together have the power to challenge the Houses. The following options present themselves to me:
The Nations really do have the power to challenge Cannith, and strong armed them into it. Cannith was shattered, after all.
House Cannith was in a state of chaos directly after the Mourning. Who knows if they even sent a representative to the Treaty signing? Or maybe they sent multiple, who were unable to present a united front.
The Cannith representative was one of the rare members who believed in the greater good. Normally I wouldn't even entertain the possibility that the Houses would send someone like that to such a vital summit, but again, in the chaos post-Mourning, who knows what happened?
The Twelve somehow got pulled onto the destroy creation forges side, and they persuaded (or "persuaded") Cannith to agree
Cannith was offered something in return. This could be anything from highly favorable trade terms with the Holds to aid in rebuilding their enclaves
Some combination thereof
Dang, Books! So many great points. I do want to point out one thing though, they definitely had someone there at the Treaty signing. It was two years after the Day of Mourning. Now, it was a peace Treaty between the Five Nations and the new sovereign states, so I wouldn't say any of the Twelve would have a seat at the table. But, they would definitely be in everyone's ears, yeah? Or maybe have a house member in like Breland's delegation. Working for the Crown, of course, lol but really for their House.
Okay, that was off-topic. lol
To your point about the gnomes, intriguing. I bet they would be HEAVILY invested in making sure that the (known) Forges were destroyed. Maybe not so much offering to use the Trust but setting it up so that the Trust would be involved. (Can we talk about for a second how insane the nation of Zilargo is? And the Trust and all of it?!?!!? Like dang...) My line of thinking is since they could never figure out HOW the Warforged were created they would want to do everything in their power to destroy the Forges that created them. And being a recognized sovereign state now I could see them playing a heavy hand while keeping it close to their little chests. lol
And maybe yes to all your points about House Cannith. They made the Forges, they created the Warforged, the Last War is over and now it's time for the weapons to be dismantled. Should we look towards nuclear treaties to see about the dismemberment of nukes as well? Because it would probably be along those lines. A UN delegation probably overseas the proliferation of the weapons, so I would suspect that there would be an authoritative in charge of such a thing for Cannith Forges.
((I have more to say, but want to post this because I keep getting calls at work and have been trying to finish my thought for like an hour lol))
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"...Debts must always be paid, sometimes in more than blood and gold. But this is Ordo Ursa," Ren places his hand on Erakas's chest, right where the Dragonborn's heart is. "Right here. And it always has been and always will be. Don't ever forget that. Because I won't."
Serandis Mendaen (Aereni Elven Rogue/maybe one day Wizard)- Project Point Playtest
So, if the Trust was helping with the forges, how has Merrix kept his secret? Is it solely through location and absolute secrecy, or is there something else? Since he's so heavily involved with warforged, I would think whoever was responsible for keeping the forges gone would scry him with some regularity (or some other way of keeping tabs).
ALSO on a completely different note. First of all, has it been established when the rejection/storage of the Karrnathi undead legions went into effect? If it was around the time of the Treaty...could that have been an unofficial (or official) caveat to get Karrnath something else? Such as people going back to the Rekkenmark?
Finally, House Orien took a hit too, especially with the destruction of the Thaliost-Rekkenmark bridge. Did Orien agents possibly argue for that to be rebuilt, and if so, what kept it from happening? What were they offered instead?
especially with the destruction of the Thaliost-Rekkenmark bridge
Um, what? It was destroyed? How do you know all this stuff, Books?
And do you really think Merrix would allow someone to spy on him? Because I do...lol let them see what he wants them to see. I have been RPing him as a less ethically inclined Tony Stark. But there has to be the Tribunal, even though it has been getting ignored. I made Thronehold Authoritarians. 10 of the last Warforged created got a choice, and they choose to protect the treaty as authoritarians. In doing so, they are the only thing (besides the small tribunal council people are starting to ignore more and more).
(Eberron is more Game of Thrones than Game of Thrones! Now, with less incest!)
And another good point. Where are they storing their legion of Undead? Hmm...
So to say no more Warforged, Cannith WOULD want the Undead legions put to the vault.
I feel like Mingo is right, we need a Treaty game to be RP'd lol
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"...Debts must always be paid, sometimes in more than blood and gold. But this is Ordo Ursa," Ren places his hand on Erakas's chest, right where the Dragonborn's heart is. "Right here. And it always has been and always will be. Don't ever forget that. Because I won't."
Serandis Mendaen (Aereni Elven Rogue/maybe one day Wizard)- Project Point Playtest
Hee hee, I read Dragonmarked cover to cover for my House game lol. One of the things they mention is that Orien took almost as serious of a hit as Cannith with both the Mournland taking the Metrol convergence with it and the destruction of White Arch bridge bringing down Orien's primary east-west connection...
"What Orien had built over a lifetime, the Last War shattered in two terrible events. The first of these was in 899 YK, when the White Arch Bridge across Scions Sound was destroyed, most likely by order of King Kaius I. The bridge, which connected the city of Rekkenmark in Karrnath with Thaliost in Thrane, was an indefensible liability for both nations, but when it fell, Orien’s primary east–west link across Khorvaire fell with it. In the aftermath of the war, many have spoken of the need to rebuild the bridge. However, Orien cannot afford the expense of reconstruction, and Thrane and Karrnath have little reason to want their kingdoms linked across the sound once more."
And I can definitely see the group keeping an eye on Merrix doing random scrying that even he doesn't know about, especially if the gnomes were involved lol.
As for where the Karrnathi undead are...the canon answer is "secret crypts" ;D But equally interesting is the fact that, at least according to Five Nations, they're still being made...those crypts are having their forces bolstered constantly just in case war breaks out again...or needs to be waged by Karrnath
Quick thought on what nations would approve of warforged emancipation, Breland was definitely in favour. Boranel was a proponent of warforged rights and if I'm remembering correctly it was based largely on his friendship with Bastion, Boranel's warforged bodyguard.
Agreed, Boranel passed warforged rights laws ten years before the Treaty itself. I don't believe specific reasons were ever given canonically, but it makes sense that his relationship with his bodyguard (who I believe was called Three, not Bastion?) had to do with that.
Thrane...debatable. They have a lot of warforged in the employ of the Church (see Five Nations where it's specifically called out that they guard the chamber where the Flame itself is), but that isn't the same thing as wanting rights.
Aundair too, they love arcane magic and such, but never had the closest relationship with Cannith. They preferred wandslingers over warforged armies, and I can definitely see Aurala being against emancipation, or at least not supporting it.
As for Karrnath...I can see a lot of options. Karrnath never used warforged the same way other nations did, because they had undead. I can totally see Kaius advocating for the destruction of the warforged rather than their emancipation.
Hey DDB,
I want to apologize for this long thread you are about to read. But, if you are like me you want ot make your Eberron game more interesting and grounded on why the Last War stopped. So I am starting this thread. I am starting this thread to kind of expand on the very limited information we have about the Treaty of Thronehold. In this thread, I will explain the information we do have, the sources for this information, and the ideas and thoughts we should move forward within expanding it for community use.
The thing is, this Treaty is Important to the world of Eberron. Not only did it put a stop to the Last War, but it also made a lot of things clear for the world at large. Warforged: Now a race and no longer slaves to their owners. (Though no more can be created as all the forges have been "destroyed".) Sovereignty for multiple nations. (Minus Droaam, Cyre[which is now the destroyed nation known as the Mournland, and the Shadow Marches. We're really not going to even discuss the Demon Wastes in this thread but they too were not included in the Treaty.) and also certain acts were abolished. (Duels to the death in Aundair, etc, etc)
Each section will be placed in a SPOILERS box as to not overload the thread, but also so you can read which part of the Treaty you would like at your leisure.
Now, let's see what World Anvil says about the Treaty:
Treaty of Thronehold
The Treaty of Thronehold is the treaty initiated by King Kaius III, signed in the former Galifaran capital of Thronehold on 11 Aryth 996 (now commemorated as Thronehold Day), between the surviving four of the Five Nations, formally ending the Last War. The treaty recognized the nations of Aundair, Breland, Thrane, Karrnath, the Talenta Plains, Zilargo, Q’barra, the Lhazaar Principalities, the Mror Holds, the Eldeen Reaches, Darguun Regional Governments, and Valenar. The former nation of Cyre, the renegade territory of Droaam, the wildlands of the Shadow Marches, and the Demon Waste were not represented in the Treaty. The Mournland is unclaimed.
Provisions
Amongst the provisions of the Treaty of Thronehold were:
PURPOSE
A multinational treaty to end the last war.
We have a great starting point here, but there are other sources online that basically say the same thing. And let's be very real here, it says AMONGST the provisions. Meaning; these could not have been the only ones. After 100 plus years of conflict are we to assume that there were only 5 major things discussed in this Treaty? With the Five Nations taking the lead and the other newly named and formed sovereign states had nothing else to add?
So, while I will not go into what else was added in the first post what I would like to do is discuss what was in the Treaty and how we as a fan community will expand on that.
Keith Baker said on his website back in June of 2015 about the Warforged when asked about them.
One thing I am curious about is why did the Treaty of Thronehold include the destruction or disassembly of all of the creation forges? Why do that when you’re also including in there that all warforged are considered individuals rather than property? The way I see it, it’s like neutering an entire race…
The fact that the Treaty of Thronehold helps the warforged is incidental. Its primary purpose was to limit the power of both the Five Nations and House Cannith. At the end of the war, every nation had warforged armies of various sizes. Disbanding these armies was a symbol of standing down from military footing. In my opinion, the original draft of the treaty ordered that all warforged be destroyed; shifting this to freedom for the warforged took a serious amount of lobbying on the part of sympathizers who’d worked with warforged over the wars. But the primary intention was eliminating standing armies, and I doubt that even many of the sympathizers considered this “the birth of a new race.”
Meanwhile, the destruction of the creation forges was a way to rein in the power of House Cannith. Left unchecked, Cannith could produce armies of warforged. Already there’s reason to question if the Five Nations truly have the power to enforce the Korth Edicts; no one liked the idea of Cannith being able to field an army of its own.
So both of these actions were about the balance of power in Khorvaire, not a grand vision of the sanctity of warforged life; in all likelihood, it was a near thing that the warforged weren’t destroyed along with the forges.
(Further reading about the Korth Edicts from http://eberronunlimited.*******.com/the-korth-edicts )
-1,005YK
In time, a new leader set out to unify Khorvaire, and it quickly became apparent to the patriarchs of the dragonmarked houses that Galifar I might well succeed where Karrn had failed. When house leaders met Galifar in the city of Korth at the height of his drive to unite the Five Nations, the would-be king swore to protect the houses, agreeing to a number of provisions that would ensure their continued economic strength. In return, the houses agreed to restrictions on their political power.
For a thousand years, the Korth Edicts prevented any member of a dragonmarked house from holding a grant of land and placed limits on the size of house enclaves and the armed forces garrisoned there. Special provisions were made for House Deneith, which retained the right to assemble military forces for mercenary service.
The edicts further specified that no member of the aristocracy of Galifar could be bound to a member of a dragonmarked house in marriage without one of the two giving up all heritage and rights. Since the houses did not own land, the edicts dictated a system of rents to be paid to the crown in exchange for the territory the houses required for their needs.
The Warforged were going to be dismantled and destroyed until some of the folk in Khorvaire thought better of it, destroying the Warforged just did not appeal to their better nature. Thankfully, this did not happen and now we have one of the most beloved races in this setting. Who doesn't love the Warforged? (If you're thinking, hmm, I don't like Warforged then that's fine. But you probably hate Baby Yoda too and there are consequences for that line of thinking in geekdom. lol jk)
But what is also a part of the provision was the destruction of all Canith Forges that created the Warforged. What a freaking blow to House Cannith, right? I mean, sure they had the money from the Last War but they literally lost their main house in Cyre during the Day of Mourning and the Host only knows how many great artificers and scions to their House. The reason these are highlighted as one of the first main provisions on almost every listing about the Treaty is probably a coincidence. Yet, let's look at it that it's not a coincidence.
A new race, that most did not expect to be a new race, has been named. That's huge. But what would Zilargo think? Little tinker hearts that they are, a human-created race made out of stone, leather, metal, and magic would be beyond them. And to accept them they would need some kind of stipulation in my honest opinion.
Karrnath wouldn't have much to say, I would think because of their own standing army. While they had Warforged, they really had more undead than anything. Thrane would have been against them, I am sure. (Up until the point they realized they could become one with the Flame, then their opinion would change.) Cyre had no place at the table, Breland and Aundair would want to see them gone as well. (This is me assuming.)
So, this is where I will end this first part of hopefully a long discussion about this Treaty and how we can make it a real living document. Think of it as the Treaty of Versailles. (Wow, I spelled that right on the first try lol nice! Grammarly didn't check me lol) Or the Geneva Conventions. What would be the give and take for this first provision?
Treaty Provisions again:
Provisions
Amongst the provisions of the Treaty of Thronehold were:
"...Debts must always be paid, sometimes in more than blood and gold. But this is Ordo Ursa," Ren places his hand on Erakas's chest, right where the Dragonborn's heart is. "Right here. And it always has been and always will be. Don't ever forget that. Because I won't."
Serandis Mendaen (Aereni Elven Rogue/maybe one day Wizard)- Project Point Playtest
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"...Debts must always be paid, sometimes in more than blood and gold. But this is Ordo Ursa," Ren places his hand on Erakas's chest, right where the Dragonborn's heart is. "Right here. And it always has been and always will be. Don't ever forget that. Because I won't."
Serandis Mendaen (Aereni Elven Rogue/maybe one day Wizard)- Project Point Playtest
On this first provision, the outlawing of the Forges seems pretty key. I'm on board with the Warforged emancipation being a side effect of neutering House Cannith, but man, what would it have taken to get Cannith to agree? And how was the destruction of the Forges accomplished? And who oversaw that, inspected the results, and how do they keep a handle on them not being re-created? The analog today, is of course, nuclear weapons and the international systems and entities set up to inspect and report on nuclear programs worldwide. While at first blush that seems pretty sophisticated for a fantasy world, magic makes it much more feasible, I think. So, I'm left with two avenues to explore:
1. Why would House Cannith agree to this?
2. How was the destruction of the Forges accomplished and who verified their destruction and what is being done to keep the Forges banned?
ey/em/eirs, or they/them works, too (just not he).
Role-playing since that keep on those borderlands. I love it so.
Okay, so. Jumping into the discussion.
Regarding how it was accomplished, I'd say that there are probably Aundairan mages capable of destroying them, or banning that, they could be smashed up (although that brings up the intriguing question of just how protected from physical damage a creation forge is...).
Maybe the Treaty sent a group (possibly the same group that was a part of the now-ignored tribunal) to oversee the destruction of the forges? And regarding how it was enforced, I bet Zilargo had some offerings regarding surveillance. Maybe they even offered a division of the Trust for this? Although that might be a little too much vulnerability for the gnomes...
As for why House Cannith would agree, that's harder, especially since it's been well-established that none of the Nations, or possibly even all of them together have the power to challenge the Houses. The following options present themselves to me:
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A thing to consider. How confident is everyone that the illegal forge Merrix has in Sharn is a secret vs a "secret"?
It's unknown to the populace, might even be unknown to two of the three house branches. But what if Merrix's family were the representatives at Thronehold?
A secret forge would by necessity have to be used in a limited fashion which would still limit their power.
I like your thinking lol not really about the Treaty itself, but you're right. I wonder how many outside the House actually know about Merrix's forge...? hmm
I am running this game on Friday's where they turned a Forge on. It was an ancient one in Droaam. I call it a Precursor Forge, something Merrix's great-grandfather was working on secretly. Before the war started. They actually met Merrix in my game this past Friday and no one in the party knows about his Forge...yet. I hope they find out about it though!
But you make a good point, I don't know if you meant to either. But I am giving you all the credit! So, Merrix would be fine as head of house to let them destroy the other forges. Not without some quid pro quo, but having his secret forge would be the reason he could let the rest go. Really smart thinking of that!
"...Debts must always be paid, sometimes in more than blood and gold. But this is Ordo Ursa," Ren places his hand on Erakas's chest, right where the Dragonborn's heart is. "Right here. And it always has been and always will be. Don't ever forget that. Because I won't."
Serandis Mendaen (Aereni Elven Rogue/maybe one day Wizard)- Project Point Playtest
1.) As stated above, it's probably because Merrix has the hidden and secretive Forge. Again, not without some caveat. We also have to consider the real problem with their bargaining. Their House was almost wiped out. Sure, they have scions and houses all over Khorvaire, but their main foundries and workshops were in Metrol and Cyre itself. Which, as we all know is now the Mournland. House Cannith does have a lot to lose, especially since they have lost so much already. Just trying to hold their position as one of the 12 while Cyre is not being recognized would be a huge problem to I bet.
2.) Dismantling? A Warforged Juggernaut smashing it? (To be honest, would a warforged destroy its own womb?) I would assume some magic, some manpower, under the watchful eyes of the Tribunal. That's a very good question. These are magical founderies, ones with immense power. I mean, they literally create sentient life. So, how do you destroy an artifact? And what is done with the debris? Does it disappear? Is it used in other things? I feel like every question we ask there more and more questions on top of it...lol
Ah, I see why Wizards have not made a more definitive Treaty of Thronehold document...lol :P Well, that's why we're here! :D
"...Debts must always be paid, sometimes in more than blood and gold. But this is Ordo Ursa," Ren places his hand on Erakas's chest, right where the Dragonborn's heart is. "Right here. And it always has been and always will be. Don't ever forget that. Because I won't."
Serandis Mendaen (Aereni Elven Rogue/maybe one day Wizard)- Project Point Playtest
Ahaha, I've had one of my groups meet Merrix in my game, and he took them to meet a psiforged, who mentioned Merrix created her. One asked "Merrix, you aren't still making warforged, are you?" Merrix goes "Now then, that's illegal via the Treaty of Thronehold." No Deception needed, characters' suspicions allayed ;D
About destroying an artifact...there's gotta be things that can do it, and with the combined efforts of several nations, I bet they could figure it out. Maybe a combination of non-Cannith artificers and mages? Hell, there could even be an artifact in Morgrave or Arcanix vaults that can destroy eldritch machines...
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Dang, Books! So many great points. I do want to point out one thing though, they definitely had someone there at the Treaty signing. It was two years after the Day of Mourning. Now, it was a peace Treaty between the Five Nations and the new sovereign states, so I wouldn't say any of the Twelve would have a seat at the table. But, they would definitely be in everyone's ears, yeah? Or maybe have a house member in like Breland's delegation. Working for the Crown, of course, lol but really for their House.
Okay, that was off-topic. lol
To your point about the gnomes, intriguing. I bet they would be HEAVILY invested in making sure that the (known) Forges were destroyed. Maybe not so much offering to use the Trust but setting it up so that the Trust would be involved. (Can we talk about for a second how insane the nation of Zilargo is? And the Trust and all of it?!?!!? Like dang...) My line of thinking is since they could never figure out HOW the Warforged were created they would want to do everything in their power to destroy the Forges that created them. And being a recognized sovereign state now I could see them playing a heavy hand while keeping it close to their little chests. lol
And maybe yes to all your points about House Cannith. They made the Forges, they created the Warforged, the Last War is over and now it's time for the weapons to be dismantled. Should we look towards nuclear treaties to see about the dismemberment of nukes as well? Because it would probably be along those lines. A UN delegation probably overseas the proliferation of the weapons, so I would suspect that there would be an authoritative in charge of such a thing for Cannith Forges.
((I have more to say, but want to post this because I keep getting calls at work and have been trying to finish my thought for like an hour lol))
"...Debts must always be paid, sometimes in more than blood and gold. But this is Ordo Ursa," Ren places his hand on Erakas's chest, right where the Dragonborn's heart is. "Right here. And it always has been and always will be. Don't ever forget that. Because I won't."
Serandis Mendaen (Aereni Elven Rogue/maybe one day Wizard)- Project Point Playtest
I'M BACK WITH MORE STUFF!
So, if the Trust was helping with the forges, how has Merrix kept his secret? Is it solely through location and absolute secrecy, or is there something else? Since he's so heavily involved with warforged, I would think whoever was responsible for keeping the forges gone would scry him with some regularity (or some other way of keeping tabs).
ALSO on a completely different note. First of all, has it been established when the rejection/storage of the Karrnathi undead legions went into effect? If it was around the time of the Treaty...could that have been an unofficial (or official) caveat to get Karrnath something else? Such as people going back to the Rekkenmark?
Finally, House Orien took a hit too, especially with the destruction of the Thaliost-Rekkenmark bridge. Did Orien agents possibly argue for that to be rebuilt, and if so, what kept it from happening? What were they offered instead?
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Um, what? It was destroyed? How do you know all this stuff, Books?
And do you really think Merrix would allow someone to spy on him? Because I do...lol let them see what he wants them to see. I have been RPing him as a less ethically inclined Tony Stark. But there has to be the Tribunal, even though it has been getting ignored. I made Thronehold Authoritarians. 10 of the last Warforged created got a choice, and they choose to protect the treaty as authoritarians. In doing so, they are the only thing (besides the small tribunal council people are starting to ignore more and more).
(Eberron is more Game of Thrones than Game of Thrones! Now, with less incest!)
And another good point. Where are they storing their legion of Undead? Hmm...
So to say no more Warforged, Cannith WOULD want the Undead legions put to the vault.
I feel like Mingo is right, we need a Treaty game to be RP'd lol
"...Debts must always be paid, sometimes in more than blood and gold. But this is Ordo Ursa," Ren places his hand on Erakas's chest, right where the Dragonborn's heart is. "Right here. And it always has been and always will be. Don't ever forget that. Because I won't."
Serandis Mendaen (Aereni Elven Rogue/maybe one day Wizard)- Project Point Playtest
Hee hee, I read Dragonmarked cover to cover for my House game lol. One of the things they mention is that Orien took almost as serious of a hit as Cannith with both the Mournland taking the Metrol convergence with it and the destruction of White Arch bridge bringing down Orien's primary east-west connection...
And I can definitely see the group keeping an eye on Merrix doing random scrying that even he doesn't know about, especially if the gnomes were involved lol.
As for where the Karrnathi undead are...the canon answer is "secret crypts" ;D But equally interesting is the fact that, at least according to Five Nations, they're still being made...those crypts are having their forces bolstered constantly just in case war breaks out again...or needs to be waged by Karrnath
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Quick thought on what nations would approve of warforged emancipation, Breland was definitely in favour. Boranel was a proponent of warforged rights and if I'm remembering correctly it was based largely on his friendship with Bastion, Boranel's warforged bodyguard.
Agreed, Boranel passed warforged rights laws ten years before the Treaty itself. I don't believe specific reasons were ever given canonically, but it makes sense that his relationship with his bodyguard (who I believe was called Three, not Bastion?) had to do with that.
Thrane...debatable. They have a lot of warforged in the employ of the Church (see Five Nations where it's specifically called out that they guard the chamber where the Flame itself is), but that isn't the same thing as wanting rights.
Aundair too, they love arcane magic and such, but never had the closest relationship with Cannith. They preferred wandslingers over warforged armies, and I can definitely see Aurala being against emancipation, or at least not supporting it.
As for Karrnath...I can see a lot of options. Karrnath never used warforged the same way other nations did, because they had undead. I can totally see Kaius advocating for the destruction of the warforged rather than their emancipation.
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(Borenal's warforged bodyguard is named Bulwark, not Bastion)
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