Btw, it would be awesome to have a martial sorcerer with extra attack. Sorcery points would serve as an amazing source to fuel martial abilities. As the same resource that fuels their core abilities, this would set some natural limitations and balance.
Bladesingers practically only get a ton of martial stuff for free. Wizard features aren't generally very awe inspiring, except some level 14 features. So the don't really have to trade away much for getting those martial abilities. Their vast ranges of spells are always their nr 1 source of power.
Sorcerers, however, need their sorcery points to stand out. Their limited amount of spells would combine well to make a martial sub more meaningful, if they could use sorc points for cool martial stuff.
This is going to be mostly about game mechanics and not as much lore, so I'll pack it all in a spoiler.
To me, the main problems of the gish-class type can be separated into three
Spell slot system and spell lists are designed/balanced around full casters, and the application for half-casters is just to have them progress at half pace.
Action economy makes half-casters perform at half-strength of full classes in combat
Most gish-types are MAD and can be further limited by that
For most people it seems a fair compromise that if your class can hit with a sword and do it closely resembling a class who focuses only on hitting with a sword, you shouldn't also be able to cast spells as well as the party's robed and weak Wizard. Hence some of the animosity against Bladesingers as they do pretty much that. With Blade Song, Light Armor, Dex and Shield spell you can get your AC quite high, to the point that mainly AoE effects are the things damaging you - or a surprise ambush that happens to focus the Bladesinger (while all their combat buffs and reactions are not active). Half-casters fit this bill better, but still is somewhat lacking in fulfilling the fighter-mage archetype. The Paladin is assisted by other strong class features that doesn't really embellish their spell casting nature but keeps them from being a poor class. The Ranger to a lesser extend is assisted in the same fashion.
One problem with half-casters only progressing their spell slots at half pace means they have vastly fewer opportunities to use a spell - because their resource is more limited. So spells have to make a significant impact to justify using that spell slot, which also clashes with the slower access to higher tier spells so the spells available are less likely to be that impactful for the level of play you're at. The spell cast is also in competition with your regular attack action as part of the action economy. And even their attack action is lesser compared to a full martial class who often get class features that improve their weapon attacks beyond the +1 Extra Attack feature at no resource cost. So your options as a half-caster range from being a "bad" spell caster to being a "bad" martial combatant.
This leads into the action economy problem, which both the Eldritch Knight and the Bladesinger have somewhat dealt with through trading one of their weapon attacks during an attack action for a cantrip (the EK first getting this with the 2024 PHB as it stands) - which very often happen to be a spell-empowered weapon attack anyway. The Paladin and their Smites are somewhat similar in fashion - although they burn through a (very) limited resource to Smite and they're also limited to mainly casting Smites if they want to attack as well. The Ranger is somewhat better off than the Paladin as their resources are more easily sustained, trading burst from a Smite to DPS from Hunter's Mark, making their limited spell slots carry more mileage. But I think you might see a pattern here: the choices are severely limited if you want to pair weapon attacks with spell casting.
I keep the Warlock separate as the entire class is a bit weird and their spell slot structure forces them to be overly reliant on cantrips, mostly Eldritch Blast, to do their combat, if they don't go full combat Hexblade - which often loses compared to full martials on not being that durable and neither being that damaging. I feel like in general Warlocks are prime candidates for multiclassing as they have some interesting features, but gets so much better with some external class assistance. Martials/Cleric for better armor, Bard/Sorc/Cleric for more spell slots.
.
Finally there's a systematic distribution that attributes that improve weapon attacks, don't overlap with attributes that strengthens spell casting. So a character trying to do both are naturally going to want investments into both attributes. Secondly the gish-types are mainly melee orientated, so you also want to stay alive and invest some into CON. And thus you have a MAD character that cannot really invest heavy into one or two stats but have to spread out their stats more or risk losing even more strength from their already limited weapon attack or spell casting choice.
.
Personally I don't mind the MAD-aspect of being a Gish-character. You divide your focus, that should cost you. However I believe you are taxed in way too many departments - namely all the three points above.
The solution I find would best suit the gish-type is to give them more spell slots. But of a lower level... which kinda clashes with the otherwise systematic approach to full caster spell slot progression and makes multiclassing... a new headache to figure out. However if half-casters gets the same amount of spell slots as full casters, but of lower levels, they can more readily use that resource as there's more of it, and they don't transgress on full caster territory as they don't cast at the same quality/level.
You could also just have the same half pace progression but specifically grant half-casters an additional spell slot of a specific spell level each level (from level 3). So for multiclassing purposes you just add half of a half-caster's level to the full caster levels and consult the multiclass spell slot table, then you add the half-caster specific spell slots atop that. It doesn't have to be that difficult to figure out.
Secondly to actually embrace the spell casting aspect of a Warrior Mage, make more spells that can be cast alongside weapon attacks (aka bonus action spells or spell-empowered weapon swings), make more spells that buff your combat prowess - change your damage type, give yourself temporary HP (and scale it better/differently than say False Life), inflict conditions, give yourself advantage on saving throws - there's a LOT of ways to improve a martial character's damage/durability/control but most of them are hardly worth the spell slot/full turn.
Divine Favor is a wonderful example of such a buff spell that is a BA spell but it has the downside of concentration, and the math generally supports using that 1st level slot to Divine Smite rather than casting Divine Favor as that 2d8 goes a long way before it gets outpaced by +1d4 per weapon swing (to be exact 4 weapon swings before DF on average starts dealing more damage) - and you can get your concentration interrupted, not to mention the best control is to eliminate the enemy which favors burst. Still it is a consideration if you can get those 4+ weapon swings off before the combat ends or your concentration is interrupted. If the concentration portion was removed it would be a nice buff spell.
AND give half-casters the add-on for the Extra Attack feature to replace a weapon swing with a cantrip or a new cast time type (basically cast time = one weapon attack, with a limit of one spell cast per round). Some have raised the issue with this feature, stating Paladin multiclassing to Warlock and casting Eldritch Blast would be granting too much power. If so, you could limit it to the respective class spell (aka Ranger's version says cast a Ranger cantrip or a spell with a cast time of 1 weapon attack, and Paladin saying Paladin cantrip...). Paladin and Ranger don't have cantrips unless they pick up their respective fighting styles Blessed Warrior/Druidic Warrior, which converts the chosen cantrips to Paladin/Ranger spells, so it can be contained fairly effectively.
Thirdly the spell lists used by half-casters could be tailored more to encompass these buffs, inflictions, weapon empowerments and less straight magic like Revivify. Basically instead of being shortened spell list of the Druid/Wizard/ Cleric spell list, they should have their own. Tailored to them.
In essence gish-types can cast almost as much as full casters, but they cast at lower levels and should be encouraged to empower their martial side and not choose between it or their spell casting side.
My opinion is that the Bladesinger feels like it should have been a half-caster class - but then again the half-caster class should be reworked to better embrace a harmony between spell casting and weapon attacks, rather than feel like you choose between being a poor martial or a poor spell caster at any given time.
Additionally I feel like it makes so much more sense that a Bladesinger is derived from a Sorcerer rather than a Wizard. Basically a warrior who was born with magic but either didn't have the true affinity for magic or chose to hone their martial side so they are a product of both latent talent and of training and skill. Fighters are a product of training and skill - not necessarily latent latent, and Wizards are a product of training and skill. So a Bladesinger in 5e is a person who has trained significantly and studied significantly... this feels like a double whammy and would be more easily explained that one part is inherent talent and not acquired through effort.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Btw, it would be awesome to have a martial sorcerer with extra attack. Sorcery points would serve as an amazing source to fuel martial abilities. As the same resource that fuels their core abilities, this would set some natural limitations and balance.
Bladesingers practically only get a ton of martial stuff for free. Wizard features aren't generally very awe inspiring, except some level 14 features. So the don't really have to trade away much for getting those martial abilities. Their vast ranges of spells are always their nr 1 source of power.
Sorcerers, however, need their sorcery points to stand out. Their limited amount of spells would combine well to make a martial sub more meaningful, if they could use sorc points for cool martial stuff.
Finland GMT/UTC +2
Ugh... no.
This is going to be mostly about game mechanics and not as much lore, so I'll pack it all in a spoiler.
To me, the main problems of the gish-class type can be separated into three
For most people it seems a fair compromise that if your class can hit with a sword and do it closely resembling a class who focuses only on hitting with a sword, you shouldn't also be able to cast spells as well as the party's robed and weak Wizard. Hence some of the animosity against Bladesingers as they do pretty much that. With Blade Song, Light Armor, Dex and Shield spell you can get your AC quite high, to the point that mainly AoE effects are the things damaging you - or a surprise ambush that happens to focus the Bladesinger (while all their combat buffs and reactions are not active). Half-casters fit this bill better, but still is somewhat lacking in fulfilling the fighter-mage archetype. The Paladin is assisted by other strong class features that doesn't really embellish their spell casting nature but keeps them from being a poor class. The Ranger to a lesser extend is assisted in the same fashion.
One problem with half-casters only progressing their spell slots at half pace means they have vastly fewer opportunities to use a spell - because their resource is more limited. So spells have to make a significant impact to justify using that spell slot, which also clashes with the slower access to higher tier spells so the spells available are less likely to be that impactful for the level of play you're at. The spell cast is also in competition with your regular attack action as part of the action economy. And even their attack action is lesser compared to a full martial class who often get class features that improve their weapon attacks beyond the +1 Extra Attack feature at no resource cost. So your options as a half-caster range from being a "bad" spell caster to being a "bad" martial combatant.
This leads into the action economy problem, which both the Eldritch Knight and the Bladesinger have somewhat dealt with through trading one of their weapon attacks during an attack action for a cantrip (the EK first getting this with the 2024 PHB as it stands) - which very often happen to be a spell-empowered weapon attack anyway. The Paladin and their Smites are somewhat similar in fashion - although they burn through a (very) limited resource to Smite and they're also limited to mainly casting Smites if they want to attack as well. The Ranger is somewhat better off than the Paladin as their resources are more easily sustained, trading burst from a Smite to DPS from Hunter's Mark, making their limited spell slots carry more mileage. But I think you might see a pattern here: the choices are severely limited if you want to pair weapon attacks with spell casting.
I keep the Warlock separate as the entire class is a bit weird and their spell slot structure forces them to be overly reliant on cantrips, mostly Eldritch Blast, to do their combat, if they don't go full combat Hexblade - which often loses compared to full martials on not being that durable and neither being that damaging. I feel like in general Warlocks are prime candidates for multiclassing as they have some interesting features, but gets so much better with some external class assistance. Martials/Cleric for better armor, Bard/Sorc/Cleric for more spell slots.
.
Finally there's a systematic distribution that attributes that improve weapon attacks, don't overlap with attributes that strengthens spell casting. So a character trying to do both are naturally going to want investments into both attributes. Secondly the gish-types are mainly melee orientated, so you also want to stay alive and invest some into CON. And thus you have a MAD character that cannot really invest heavy into one or two stats but have to spread out their stats more or risk losing even more strength from their already limited weapon attack or spell casting choice.
.
Personally I don't mind the MAD-aspect of being a Gish-character. You divide your focus, that should cost you. However I believe you are taxed in way too many departments - namely all the three points above.
The solution I find would best suit the gish-type is to give them more spell slots. But of a lower level... which kinda clashes with the otherwise systematic approach to full caster spell slot progression and makes multiclassing... a new headache to figure out. However if half-casters gets the same amount of spell slots as full casters, but of lower levels, they can more readily use that resource as there's more of it, and they don't transgress on full caster territory as they don't cast at the same quality/level.
You could also just have the same half pace progression but specifically grant half-casters an additional spell slot of a specific spell level each level (from level 3). So for multiclassing purposes you just add half of a half-caster's level to the full caster levels and consult the multiclass spell slot table, then you add the half-caster specific spell slots atop that. It doesn't have to be that difficult to figure out.
Secondly to actually embrace the spell casting aspect of a Warrior Mage, make more spells that can be cast alongside weapon attacks (aka bonus action spells or spell-empowered weapon swings), make more spells that buff your combat prowess - change your damage type, give yourself temporary HP (and scale it better/differently than say False Life), inflict conditions, give yourself advantage on saving throws - there's a LOT of ways to improve a martial character's damage/durability/control but most of them are hardly worth the spell slot/full turn.
Divine Favor is a wonderful example of such a buff spell that is a BA spell but it has the downside of concentration, and the math generally supports using that 1st level slot to Divine Smite rather than casting Divine Favor as that 2d8 goes a long way before it gets outpaced by +1d4 per weapon swing (to be exact 4 weapon swings before DF on average starts dealing more damage) - and you can get your concentration interrupted, not to mention the best control is to eliminate the enemy which favors burst. Still it is a consideration if you can get those 4+ weapon swings off before the combat ends or your concentration is interrupted. If the concentration portion was removed it would be a nice buff spell.
AND give half-casters the add-on for the Extra Attack feature to replace a weapon swing with a cantrip or a new cast time type (basically cast time = one weapon attack, with a limit of one spell cast per round). Some have raised the issue with this feature, stating Paladin multiclassing to Warlock and casting Eldritch Blast would be granting too much power. If so, you could limit it to the respective class spell (aka Ranger's version says cast a Ranger cantrip or a spell with a cast time of 1 weapon attack, and Paladin saying Paladin cantrip...). Paladin and Ranger don't have cantrips unless they pick up their respective fighting styles Blessed Warrior/Druidic Warrior, which converts the chosen cantrips to Paladin/Ranger spells, so it can be contained fairly effectively.
Thirdly the spell lists used by half-casters could be tailored more to encompass these buffs, inflictions, weapon empowerments and less straight magic like Revivify. Basically instead of being shortened spell list of the Druid/Wizard/ Cleric spell list, they should have their own. Tailored to them.
In essence gish-types can cast almost as much as full casters, but they cast at lower levels and should be encouraged to empower their martial side and not choose between it or their spell casting side.
My opinion is that the Bladesinger feels like it should have been a half-caster class - but then again the half-caster class should be reworked to better embrace a harmony between spell casting and weapon attacks, rather than feel like you choose between being a poor martial or a poor spell caster at any given time.
Additionally I feel like it makes so much more sense that a Bladesinger is derived from a Sorcerer rather than a Wizard. Basically a warrior who was born with magic but either didn't have the true affinity for magic or chose to hone their martial side so they are a product of both latent talent and of training and skill. Fighters are a product of training and skill - not necessarily latent latent, and Wizards are a product of training and skill. So a Bladesinger in 5e is a person who has trained significantly and studied significantly... this feels like a double whammy and would be more easily explained that one part is inherent talent and not acquired through effort.