Pretty logical. In male groups competition and aggression is mostly focused outwards against other groups, while in female it's inwards against other members of the same group. Makes total sense that a society totally devoid of masculine touch in its leadership would evolve into backstabbing mess Drow society is.
Sorry, but this is just wrong on so many levels. The in-group, out-group mindset is reflected across all of humanity, not a male-oriented thing. And men are just as prone to infighting as women. In fact, that huge backstabbing mess is supposed to be a reflection of corrupt noble society, which are usually male dominant. Claiming that its the result of lacking a male touch is BS.
I'm fairly sure mind flayers do ritually kill each other. Or at least experiment on each other, given their pseudo-scientific, anti-religious, psychic hive-mind culture. Can't ritually kill if there's no one to offer the kill to.
As for drow being the original and only prominent Matriarchal society... I'm going to say it wasn't intentional. Not coincidental - unconscious bias is a thing - but no one planned it that way.
Mind flayers are always in contact through the massive mega-brain, aren't they? I could see the argument for occasional experimentation (augmentation?), but ritual blood sacrifice seems rather pointless if you have no deities to present the sacrifices to. Experimentation in an attempt to create "better" Mind Flayers is different, as it implies the potential for value to be created for future Mind Flayers.
As for Drow, I'm not arguing that it was intentionally written that way as a conscious political argument against women agitating for rights in RL, but unconscious bias is still very much a kind of bias. Not being aware of one's own biases as a writer does not eliminate it's psychological consequences for oneself or for others reading the material.
So the one society they canonically picked to both governed exclusively by women and to have exclusively female deity or deities is the one most known for cruelty. Purely coincidental??
Pretty logical. In male groups competition and aggression is mostly focused outwards against other groups, while in female it's inwards against other members of the same group. Makes total sense that a society totally devoid of masculine touch in its leadership would evolve into backstabbing mess Drow society is.
Yikes. That is huge-mongous heap of unfounded assumptions right there. What exactly are you basing all this on?
Look, the fact is the Drow were NOT only worshipping Lolth. The ENTIRE point of the Against the Giants and Descent into the Depths (where the Drow are actually introduced to AD&D) series is because House Eilservs/Tormtor alliance had switched to worship of The Elder Elemental God Vilp-akf'cho Rentaq and away from Lolth because their faction wanted to run things in the Vault and Erelhei-Cinlu. The EEG is masculine. So this entire line of reasoning that somehow the Drow represent some unconscious bias is baloney.
I'm fairly sure mind flayers do ritually kill each other. Or at least experiment on each other, given their pseudo-scientific, anti-religious, psychic hive-mind culture. Can't ritually kill if there's no one to offer the kill to.
As for drow being the original and only prominent Matriarchal society... I'm going to say it wasn't intentional. Not coincidental - unconscious bias is a thing - but no one planned it that way.
Mind flayers are always in contact through the massive mega-brain, aren't they? I could see the argument for occasional experimentation (augmentation?), but ritual blood sacrifice seems rather pointless if you have no deities to present the sacrifices to. Experimentation in an attempt to create "better" Mind Flayers is different, as it implies the potential for value to be created for future Mind Flayers.
That's kind of splitting hairs. It might be more darwinian forced evolution by culling the chaff than scientific advancement, but, lorewise, serves the same purpose. There's a reason that, by cannon, drow are the most magical of elves (according to Mike Mearls anyways).
As well, I'm pretty sure that, when two mind flayer hives meet, the result is a war. Two elder brain's cannot stand each other's presence. This results in a cycle of hives being destroyed and any advancement lost repeatedly. Both societies are ultimately cannibalistic and selfish to the extreme.
.....
On a side note, I feel like mind flayers serve the niche of "evil dwarves" better than actual dwarves. They're both crafters, but one is focused on Frankenstein-ish mad science experimenting on the living rather than obessive blacksmithing / alchemy.
On a second side note, I'm really more fond of non-Lothian societies. Ellistrae, sure, but also her bother 'Vhaeraun's thief guild, the Banshee goddess Kiaransalee, even that elder evil slime god. This actually looks at dark elves through the lens of more than just glorified spider people. If gnolls are hyena people, yuan-ti are snakes... then Lolth is just the face of spider beast-kin. Can be fun, but ultimately I feel it's more being faux werespiders than fae-adjacent beings.
The in-group, out-group mindset is reflected across all of humanity, not a male-oriented thing.
Obviously both sexes engage in both types, it's just that males tend to have more out-group conflicts and females more in-group. Not just with humans, but with most social mammals, so it could not be written as just human thing, not applicable to elves or orks or whatnot.
So this entire line of reasoning that somehow the Drow represent some unconscious bias is baloney.
I think you are missing how unconscious bias works. There's no problem with drow being matriarchal. The problem is that they're pretty much the ONLY matriarchal society in the vast majority of games, and the fact that this only example of matriarchal society is evil (and thus not PC friendly) just makes it worse.
Dwarves, in general, have been portrayed as a patriarchal society (at one point, confining the female population to domestic chores and unable to defend themselves), with the evil dwarves taking it to an abusive extreme. Orcs are heavily patriarchal, as are goblinoids. Oddly, so are gnolls, despite the fact hyenas are very much matriarchal in reality. Humans often default to medieval patriarchal societies, and though there are a few exceptions, they're very poorly known and vastly outnumbered. Goodly elves are just as likely to have kings as queens, and their head diety Corellon is often portrayed as male.
Even if unintentionally, this sends a subliminal message that affects how we look at women in reality. Its subtle, but it has a very quantitative impact on modern society. And not a good one.
The in-group, out-group mindset is reflected across all of humanity, not a male-oriented thing.
Obviously both sexes engage in both types, it's just that males tend to have more out-group conflicts and females more in-group. Not just with humans, but with most social mammals, so it could not be written as just human thing, not applicable to elves or orks or whatnot.
Again, that's total BS. Men do tend to be more physically aggressive and violent, predominantly as a result of more testosterone as well as displays of anger being more socially acceptable for men but not women, but that has no bearing on whom the targets are.
You my be offended by reality all you want, but statistics, sociology and zoology studies are pretty clear on this. We even have sound theories on why it happens from evolutionary point of view, although still not a lot on why it happens on physiological level. Sexual dimorphism is an immensely useful trait and a massive advantage to any non-solitary species, but you mention that humans have it and you have snowflakes screeching in denial on 0.01 seconds.
Men do tend to be more physically aggressive and violent, predominantly as a result of more testosterone as well as displays of anger being more socially acceptable for men but not women, but that has no bearing on whom the targets are.
Well, that is all correct, by I fail to see how it factors in or discussion. Men use violence to resolve conflicts, women use social manipulation, but conflict is still conflict. Point is one tend to use those means more against out-grup, while the others against in-group.
From the 5e MM - "They have no society to speak of."
DnD didn';t start from 5e. In earlier editions Trolls sometimes formed into tribes which were ruled by matriarchs mostly thtough (very crude) social manipulation. Because violence does not work with Trolls as they cannot really hurt each other.
MrRhexx on YouTube actually made a good video detailing among many things the way Trolls function in tribes.
The Drow sworn to Eilistraee, the Dark Maiden and daughter of Araushnee - who we now know as Lloth (or Lolth in Common and other languages) - are typically not Evil. Since Eilitraee seeks to convert Lolth-sworn away from their ways and she is a particular fan of the arts, it's viable (and, to me, expected) for the web-inspired designs to extend beyond war into all parts of progressive Eilistree-sworn Drow society. It seems that, despite the Dark Seldarine being at odds with her, she has little desire to fight with them preferring to have a society separate from the Dark Seldarine.
So, yes. Non-evil spider-inspired Drow is possible in 5e lore without resorting to going all Drizzt every single time and with the added bonus of finding beauty in the webs. The hot-take fits with an existing 5e lore.
(Vhaeraun-sworn - those who swear to Araushnee's (Lolth's) son and also oppose Lolth but in a more-direct manner with different motives - would probably focus on the same usage of spiders' silk as Lolth-sworn - more interest in utility than art.) EDIT: (I should probably mention that Vhaeraun-sworn would be less likely to keep employing silk becuase one of the icons of Vhaeraun is a dead spider, but I think it would be difficult to completely eradicate everything from the old culture.)
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider. My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong. I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲 “It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
This is one of the reasons why I love the Eberron setting. There are no naturally evil races, they are definitely different but none are all evil. In Eberron, the drow where created by the giants. Now they still live on Xen’drik and it is their culture that shapes them. Some of them are evil people who strive to become fire immortals, others worship a scorpion and are mostly neutral. Others are in the the underdark and some of those worship a spider overlord who is the fear of spiders. But drow could be anywhere and any alignment.
So this entire line of reasoning that somehow the Drow represent some unconscious bias is baloney.
I think you are missing how unconscious bias works. There's no problem with drow being matriarchal. The problem is that they're pretty much the ONLY matriarchal society in the vast majority of games, and the fact that this only example of matriarchal society is evil (and thus not PC friendly) just makes it worse.
Even if unintentionally, this sends a subliminal message that affects how we look at women in reality. Its subtle, but it has a very quantitative impact on modern society. And not a good one.
God, give me a freaking break. The Gynarch of Hardby (which is also in Greyhawk) would like a word. So would Iggwilv the Witch Queen of Perrenland.
You my be offended by reality all you want, but statistics, sociology and zoology studies are pretty clear on this. We even have sound theories on why it happens from evolutionary point of view, although still not a lot on why it happens on physiological level. Sexual dimorphism is an immensely useful trait and a massive advantage to any non-solitary species, but you mention that humans have it and you have snowflakes screeching in denial on 0.01 seconds.
Sexual dimorphism does not automatically lead to social schemas where, as you assume, women channel aggression inward and men channel aggression outward. There is a strong social component to all this.
Also, sexual dimorphism works both ways. Not all species have bigger males than females. In a fantasy universe with a variety of bipedal sentient (or considering themselves sentient) species/races, that would still likely hold true.
As such sexual dimorphism does not hand wave this sex-based demonization of women-led societies.
Also, sexual dimorphism works both ways. Not all species have bigger males than females.
Never said that. But certain traits are almost universal. Males tend to have traits that test their merit amplified, even at the cost of surviability - more reckless, aggressive, diverse. Females get traits that increase their survivability amplified - more cautious, higher fat/muscle ratio (to survive starvation), better immune system, suppressed deviations from the norm. Attitude towards conflict is part of this. Someone have to handle generally more dangerous out-group conflicts and it's better be more expendable males.
This is one of the reasons why I love the Eberron setting. There are no naturally evil races.
Eberron mostly just spells it more clearly. In FR or Greyhawk most "evil races" are more like evil societies. Almost everyone raised by those people would be evil not by nature but by nurture, but the end result is generally the same. But Drow or Hobgoblin or Frost Giant taken out of their societies and raised in les messed up environment may end up being any alignment.
Also, sexual dimorphism works both ways. Not all species have bigger males than females.
Never said that. But certain traits are almost universal. Males tend to have traits that test their merit amplified, even at the cost of surviability - more reckless, aggressive, diverse. Females get traits that increase their survivability amplified - more cautious, higher fat/muscle ratio (to survive starvation), better immune system, suppressed deviations from the norm. Attitude towards conflict is part of this. Someone have to handle generally more dangerous out-group conflicts and it's better be more expendable males.
A. Just because certain correlations exist between SOME species with sexual dimorphism does count as a sound argument for ALL species with relation to sexual dimorphism. When you say "universal" you are talking about observed behavior, primarily amongst mammals of a certain size.
B. There is no causative link between sexual dimorphism and as you put it females expressing aggression to towards members of the same group. Heck if you look at moose and elephant seals, where there is plenty of sexual dimorphism where males have pronounced size differences and physical characteristic differences, those very differences are primarily to cope with In-Group aggression around mate guarding, and not nearly as useful against frequent predators of those species. So your attempt at direct correlation is unfounded.
Sorry, but this is just wrong on so many levels. The in-group, out-group mindset is reflected across all of humanity, not a male-oriented thing. And men are just as prone to infighting as women. In fact, that huge backstabbing mess is supposed to be a reflection of corrupt noble society, which are usually male dominant. Claiming that its the result of lacking a male touch is BS.
Mind flayers are always in contact through the massive mega-brain, aren't they? I could see the argument for occasional experimentation (augmentation?), but ritual blood sacrifice seems rather pointless if you have no deities to present the sacrifices to. Experimentation in an attempt to create "better" Mind Flayers is different, as it implies the potential for value to be created for future Mind Flayers.
As for Drow, I'm not arguing that it was intentionally written that way as a conscious political argument against women agitating for rights in RL, but unconscious bias is still very much a kind of bias. Not being aware of one's own biases as a writer does not eliminate it's psychological consequences for oneself or for others reading the material.
Yikes. That is huge-mongous heap of unfounded assumptions right there. What exactly are you basing all this on?
Look, the fact is the Drow were NOT only worshipping Lolth. The ENTIRE point of the Against the Giants and Descent into the Depths (where the Drow are actually introduced to AD&D) series is because House Eilservs/Tormtor alliance had switched to worship of The Elder Elemental God Vilp-akf'cho Rentaq and away from Lolth because their faction wanted to run things in the Vault and Erelhei-Cinlu. The EEG is masculine. So this entire line of reasoning that somehow the Drow represent some unconscious bias is baloney.
That's kind of splitting hairs. It might be more darwinian forced evolution by culling the chaff than scientific advancement, but, lorewise, serves the same purpose. There's a reason that, by cannon, drow are the most magical of elves (according to Mike Mearls anyways).
As well, I'm pretty sure that, when two mind flayer hives meet, the result is a war. Two elder brain's cannot stand each other's presence. This results in a cycle of hives being destroyed and any advancement lost repeatedly. Both societies are ultimately cannibalistic and selfish to the extreme.
.....
On a side note, I feel like mind flayers serve the niche of "evil dwarves" better than actual dwarves. They're both crafters, but one is focused on Frankenstein-ish mad science experimenting on the living rather than obessive blacksmithing / alchemy.
On a second side note, I'm really more fond of non-Lothian societies. Ellistrae, sure, but also her bother 'Vhaeraun's thief guild, the Banshee goddess Kiaransalee, even that elder evil slime god. This actually looks at dark elves through the lens of more than just glorified spider people. If gnolls are hyena people, yuan-ti are snakes... then Lolth is just the face of spider beast-kin. Can be fun, but ultimately I feel it's more being faux werespiders than fae-adjacent beings.
Obviously both sexes engage in both types, it's just that males tend to have more out-group conflicts and females more in-group. Not just with humans, but with most social mammals, so it could not be written as just human thing, not applicable to elves or orks or whatnot.
I think you are missing how unconscious bias works. There's no problem with drow being matriarchal. The problem is that they're pretty much the ONLY matriarchal society in the vast majority of games, and the fact that this only example of matriarchal society is evil (and thus not PC friendly) just makes it worse.
Dwarves, in general, have been portrayed as a patriarchal society (at one point, confining the female population to domestic chores and unable to defend themselves), with the evil dwarves taking it to an abusive extreme. Orcs are heavily patriarchal, as are goblinoids. Oddly, so are gnolls, despite the fact hyenas are very much matriarchal in reality. Humans often default to medieval patriarchal societies, and though there are a few exceptions, they're very poorly known and vastly outnumbered. Goodly elves are just as likely to have kings as queens, and their head diety Corellon is often portrayed as male.
Even if unintentionally, this sends a subliminal message that affects how we look at women in reality. Its subtle, but it has a very quantitative impact on modern society. And not a good one.
Again, that's total BS. Men do tend to be more physically aggressive and violent, predominantly as a result of more testosterone as well as displays of anger being more socially acceptable for men but not women, but that has no bearing on whom the targets are.
You my be offended by reality all you want, but statistics, sociology and zoology studies are pretty clear on this. We even have sound theories on why it happens from evolutionary point of view, although still not a lot on why it happens on physiological level. Sexual dimorphism is an immensely useful trait and a massive advantage to any non-solitary species, but you mention that humans have it and you have snowflakes screeching in denial on 0.01 seconds.
Well, that is all correct, by I fail to see how it factors in or discussion. Men use violence to resolve conflicts, women use social manipulation, but conflict is still conflict. Point is one tend to use those means more against out-grup, while the others against in-group.
No, they are not. I simply don't believe you at all. Care to offer proof? Because it sounds nothing like human society.
Trolls are actually matriarchal too.
From the 5e MM - "They have no society to speak of."
DnD didn';t start from 5e. In earlier editions Trolls sometimes formed into tribes which were ruled by matriarchs mostly thtough (very crude) social manipulation. Because violence does not work with Trolls as they cannot really hurt each other.
The Drow sworn to Eilistraee, the Dark Maiden and daughter of Araushnee - who we now know as Lloth (or Lolth in Common and other languages) - are typically not Evil. Since Eilitraee seeks to convert Lolth-sworn away from their ways and she is a particular fan of the arts, it's viable (and, to me, expected) for the web-inspired designs to extend beyond war into all parts of progressive Eilistree-sworn Drow society. It seems that, despite the Dark Seldarine being at odds with her, she has little desire to fight with them preferring to have a society separate from the Dark Seldarine.
So, yes. Non-evil spider-inspired Drow is possible in 5e lore without resorting to going all Drizzt every single time and with the added bonus of finding beauty in the webs. The hot-take fits with an existing 5e lore.
(Vhaeraun-sworn - those who swear to Araushnee's (Lolth's) son and also oppose Lolth but in a more-direct manner with different motives - would probably focus on the same usage of spiders' silk as Lolth-sworn - more interest in utility than art.) EDIT: (I should probably mention that Vhaeraun-sworn would be less likely to keep employing silk becuase one of the icons of Vhaeraun is a dead spider, but I think it would be difficult to completely eradicate everything from the old culture.)
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider.
My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong.
I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲
“It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
This is one of the reasons why I love the Eberron setting. There are no naturally evil races, they are definitely different but none are all evil. In Eberron, the drow where created by the giants. Now they still live on Xen’drik and it is their culture that shapes them. Some of them are evil people who strive to become fire immortals, others worship a scorpion and are mostly neutral. Others are in the the underdark and some of those worship a spider overlord who is the fear of spiders. But drow could be anywhere and any alignment.
God, give me a freaking break. The Gynarch of Hardby (which is also in Greyhawk) would like a word. So would Iggwilv the Witch Queen of Perrenland.
Sexual dimorphism does not automatically lead to social schemas where, as you assume, women channel aggression inward and men channel aggression outward. There is a strong social component to all this.
Also, sexual dimorphism works both ways. Not all species have bigger males than females. In a fantasy universe with a variety of bipedal sentient (or considering themselves sentient) species/races, that would still likely hold true.
As such sexual dimorphism does not hand wave this sex-based demonization of women-led societies.
Let's please keep things on topic and not stray into that realm known as 'real life discussions'. Thanks
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Never said that. But certain traits are almost universal. Males tend to have traits that test their merit amplified, even at the cost of surviability - more reckless, aggressive, diverse. Females get traits that increase their survivability amplified - more cautious, higher fat/muscle ratio (to survive starvation), better immune system, suppressed deviations from the norm. Attitude towards conflict is part of this. Someone have to handle generally more dangerous out-group conflicts and it's better be more expendable males.
Eberron mostly just spells it more clearly. In FR or Greyhawk most "evil races" are more like evil societies. Almost everyone raised by those people would be evil not by nature but by nurture, but the end result is generally the same. But Drow or Hobgoblin or Frost Giant taken out of their societies and raised in les messed up environment may end up being any alignment.
A. Just because certain correlations exist between SOME species with sexual dimorphism does count as a sound argument for ALL species with relation to sexual dimorphism. When you say "universal" you are talking about observed behavior, primarily amongst mammals of a certain size.
B. There is no causative link between sexual dimorphism and as you put it females expressing aggression to towards members of the same group. Heck if you look at moose and elephant seals, where there is plenty of sexual dimorphism where males have pronounced size differences and physical characteristic differences, those very differences are primarily to cope with In-Group aggression around mate guarding, and not nearly as useful against frequent predators of those species. So your attempt at direct correlation is unfounded.