On an echo knight that has sentinel feat and booming blade. Say you are 5 ft in front of an enemy and you are using a glaive. You place your echo 10 ft behind the enemy. You hit the enemy with booming blade, then swap places with your echo (now your 10 ft behind the enemy). If im reading the feats right, the enemy can either attack the echo ( a target ) , in which it is within your reach so you can attack via sentinel. Or, If the enemy decides to attack you instead, it takes damage from booming blade ( moving to you ) and you get an attack of opportunity from the echo. Is this correct?
Okay, the Booming Blade question aside, let's focus on the question about the Sentinel reaction for an enemy attacking the echo.
Sentinel
You have mastered techniques to take advantage of every drop in any enemy's guard, gaining the following benefits:
When you hit a creature with an opportunity attack, the creature's speed becomes 0 for the rest of the turn.
Creatures provoke opportunity attacks from you even if they take the Disengage action before leaving your reach.
When a creature within 5 feet of you makes an attack against a target other than you (and that target doesn't have this feat), you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against the attacking creature.
You're correct that Sentinel punishes attacks against "targets" other than you, not "creatures" other than you. An attack against a creature, or an empty square (guessing at the location of an invisible and hidden creature), or an object, or a weird manifestation like Unseen Servant or an Echo.... yup, those are all "targets," so you can use a Sentinel reaction against them....
.... So long as they aren't "you." So, does the Echo Knight's Manifest Echo create some sort of duplicate that you must treat as "you"?
Manifest Echo
3rd-level Echo Knight feature
You can use a bonus action to magically manifest an echo of yourself in an unoccupied space you can see within 15 feet of you. This echo is a magical, translucent, gray image of you that lasts until it is destroyed, until you dismiss it as a bonus action, until you manifest another echo, or until you’re incapacitated.
Your echo has AC 14 + your proficiency bonus, 1 hit point, and immunity to all conditions. If it has to make a saving throw, it uses your saving throw bonus for the roll. It is the same size as you, and it occupies its space. On your turn, you can mentally command the echo to move up to 30 feet in any direction (no action required). If your echo is ever more than 30 feet from you at the end of your turn, it is destroyed.
You can use the echo in the following ways:
As a bonus action, you can teleport, magically swapping places with your echo at a cost of 15 feet of your movement, regardless of the distance between the two of you.
When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo’s space. You make this choice for each attack.
When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo’s space.
Now, the bolded language, and just the general vibe of this thing... clearly it's not unrelated to you, it has quite a bit more to do with you than say an Unseen Servant does. But, the feature never says anything like "the echo is considered to be you" or "for the purpose of abilities and features, treat the echo as if it is you" or anything even remotely like that. It's an echo of you, it is an image of you, but it is not you.
Other hitch, you get that reaction attack only so long as the other target doesn't itself have Sentinel. Browsing the Manifest Echo feature above, while it does share your saving throw bonuses... it has its own AC, and doesn't seem to have any other class or race or character features, like sharing your feats.
So... yeah, that's a decent combination, I don't see RAW any reason why an enemy choosing your Echo as its target shouldn't trigger your Sentinel reaction just like every other target. Good catch!
Seems like it works in pretty much every way, only issue I see is choosing between extra attack and booming blade at higher levels if sticking with the fighter.
Okay, the Booming Blade question aside, let's focus on the question about the Sentinel reaction for an enemy attacking the echo.
Sentinel
You have mastered techniques to take advantage of every drop in any enemy's guard, gaining the following benefits:
When you hit a creature with an opportunity attack, the creature's speed becomes 0 for the rest of the turn.
Creatures provoke opportunity attacks from you even if they take the Disengage action before leaving your reach.
When a creature within 5 feet of you makes an attack against a target other than you (and that target doesn't have this feat), you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against the attacking creature.
You're correct that Sentinel punishes attacks against "targets" other than you, not "creatures" other than you. An attack against a creature, or an empty square (guessing at the location of an invisible and hidden creature), or an object, or a weird manifestation like Unseen Servant or an Echo.... yup, those are all "targets," so you can use a Sentinel reaction against them....
.... So long as they aren't "you." So, does the Echo Knight's Manifest Echo create some sort of duplicate that you must treat as "you"?
Manifest Echo
3rd-level Echo Knight feature
You can use a bonus action to magically manifest an echo of yourself in an unoccupied space you can see within 15 feet of you. This echo is a magical, translucent, gray image of you that lasts until it is destroyed, until you dismiss it as a bonus action, until you manifest another echo, or until you’re incapacitated.
Your echo has AC 14 + your proficiency bonus, 1 hit point, and immunity to all conditions. If it has to make a saving throw, it uses your saving throw bonus for the roll. It is the same size as you, and it occupies its space. On your turn, you can mentally command the echo to move up to 30 feet in any direction (no action required). If your echo is ever more than 30 feet from you at the end of your turn, it is destroyed.
You can use the echo in the following ways:
As a bonus action, you can teleport, magically swapping places with your echo at a cost of 15 feet of your movement, regardless of the distance between the two of you.
When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo’s space. You make this choice for each attack.
When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo’s space.
Now, the bolded language, and just the general vibe of this thing... clearly it's not unrelated to you, it has quite a bit more to do with you than say an Unseen Servant does. But, the feature never says anything like "the echo is considered to be you" or "for the purpose of abilities and features, treat the echo as if it is you" or anything even remotely like that. It's an echo of you, it is an image of you, but it is not you.
Other hitch, you get that reaction attack only so long as the other target doesn't itself have Sentinel. Browsing the Manifest Echo feature above, while it does share your saving throw bonuses... it has its own AC, and doesn't seem to have any other class or race or character features, like sharing your feats.
So... yeah, that's a decent combination, I don't see RAW any reason why an enemy choosing your Echo as its target shouldn't trigger your Sentinel reaction just like every other target. Good catch!
Here’s a question: do you think Sentinel allows a reaction attack if someone hits one of your mirror images?
Can you target a mirror image? Not intentionally it seems, only by targeting “you”... and, they don’t even have their own spaces as alternative targets, they’re just an extension of your person and belongings? I see the crack in there where a hit can “target” the image instead, but that just feels like sloppy editing, it isn’t really a boba fide TARGET target like an Echo or a Servant etc. is.
If I had a gun to my head to find a RAW way to draw the line between that and the echo, I might try to argue that a creature “made the attack” targeting you and just then had mirrors effect interfere afterwards, not satisfying Sentinel’s “make an attack against”... but it’s honestly arguable whether mirror subs the target before or after the attack is made.
Dunno... I WANNA say no to the Mirror, if there’s a way to.
The way I look at it, mirror image is a target other than you, regardless of if they share the same space as you. The tricky part is that mirror image works to basically force a creature to target something else.
1 . Choose a target. Pick a target within your attack's range: a creature, an object, or a location. 2. Determine modifiers. The DM determines whether the target has cover and whether you have advantage or disadvantage against the target. In addition, spells, special abilities, and other effects can apply penalties or bonuses to your attack roll. 3. Resolve the attack. You make the attack roll. On a hit, you roll damage, unless the particular attack has rules that specify otherwise. Some attacks cause special effects in addition to or instead of damage. If there's ever any question whether something you're doing counts as an attack, the rule is simple: if you're making an attack roll, you're making an attack.
mirror image takes away a creatures ability to reliably target a creature by being able to change the target.
When a creature within 5 feet ofyou makes an attack against a target other than you (and that target doesn't have this feat), you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against the attacking creature.
sentinel feature feature doesn’t make any distinction on what a creature within 5ft on you intended to attack, merely that it made an attack against literally anything that isn’t you.
arcane tricksters make great use of this as they can potentially get off turn sneak attack damage, and high dexterity means the image has a higher chance to evade the attack.
I suppose that’s true. I gused I’m on the fence because they DID choose to attack you... but I suppose that’s not much different from being tricked into choosing to attack an illusion in a different square, a clear Sentinel “yes.”
We’ve been sleeping on illusions all along! Arcane Trickster looking pretty tasty!
On an echo knight that has sentinel feat and booming blade. Say you are 5 ft in front of an enemy and you are using a glaive. You place your echo 10 ft behind the enemy. You hit the enemy with booming blade, then swap places with your echo (now your 10 ft behind the enemy). If im reading the feats right, the enemy can either attack the echo ( a target ) , in which it is within your reach so you can attack via sentinel. Or, If the enemy decides to attack you instead, it takes damage from booming blade ( moving to you ) and you get an attack of opportunity from the echo. Is this correct?
Okay, the Booming Blade question aside, let's focus on the question about the Sentinel reaction for an enemy attacking the echo.
You're correct that Sentinel punishes attacks against "targets" other than you, not "creatures" other than you. An attack against a creature, or an empty square (guessing at the location of an invisible and hidden creature), or an object, or a weird manifestation like Unseen Servant or an Echo.... yup, those are all "targets," so you can use a Sentinel reaction against them....
.... So long as they aren't "you." So, does the Echo Knight's Manifest Echo create some sort of duplicate that you must treat as "you"?
Now, the bolded language, and just the general vibe of this thing... clearly it's not unrelated to you, it has quite a bit more to do with you than say an Unseen Servant does. But, the feature never says anything like "the echo is considered to be you" or "for the purpose of abilities and features, treat the echo as if it is you" or anything even remotely like that. It's an echo of you, it is an image of you, but it is not you.
Other hitch, you get that reaction attack only so long as the other target doesn't itself have Sentinel. Browsing the Manifest Echo feature above, while it does share your saving throw bonuses... it has its own AC, and doesn't seem to have any other class or race or character features, like sharing your feats.
So... yeah, that's a decent combination, I don't see RAW any reason why an enemy choosing your Echo as its target shouldn't trigger your Sentinel reaction just like every other target. Good catch!
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Seems like it works in pretty much every way, only issue I see is choosing between extra attack and booming blade at higher levels if sticking with the fighter.
Here’s a question: do you think Sentinel allows a reaction attack if someone hits one of your mirror images?
Can you target a mirror image? Not intentionally it seems, only by targeting “you”... and, they don’t even have their own spaces as alternative targets, they’re just an extension of your person and belongings? I see the crack in there where a hit can “target” the image instead, but that just feels like sloppy editing, it isn’t really a boba fide TARGET target like an Echo or a Servant etc. is.
If I had a gun to my head to find a RAW way to draw the line between that and the echo, I might try to argue that a creature “made the attack” targeting you and just then had mirrors effect interfere afterwards, not satisfying Sentinel’s “make an attack against”... but it’s honestly arguable whether mirror subs the target before or after the attack is made.
Dunno... I WANNA say no to the Mirror, if there’s a way to.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
The way I look at it, mirror image is a target other than you, regardless of if they share the same space as you. The tricky part is that mirror image works to basically force a creature to target something else.
1 . Choose a target. Pick a target within your attack's range: a creature, an object, or a location.
2. Determine modifiers. The DM determines whether the target has cover and whether you have advantage or disadvantage against the target. In addition, spells, special abilities, and other effects can apply penalties or bonuses to your attack roll.
3. Resolve the attack. You make the attack roll. On a hit, you roll damage, unless the particular attack has rules that specify otherwise. Some attacks cause special effects in addition to or instead of damage.
If there's ever any question whether something you're doing counts as an attack, the rule is simple: if you're making an attack roll, you're making an attack.
mirror image takes away a creatures ability to reliably target a creature by being able to change the target.
When a creature within 5 feet ofyou makes an attack against a target other than you (and that target doesn't have this feat), you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against the attacking creature.
sentinel feature feature doesn’t make any distinction on what a creature within 5ft on you intended to attack, merely that it made an attack against literally anything that isn’t you.
arcane tricksters make great use of this as they can potentially get off turn sneak attack damage, and high dexterity means the image has a higher chance to evade the attack.
I suppose that’s true. I gused I’m on the fence because they DID choose to attack you... but I suppose that’s not much different from being tricked into choosing to attack an illusion in a different square, a clear Sentinel “yes.”
We’ve been sleeping on illusions all along! Arcane Trickster looking pretty tasty!
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.