If a spell such as Dimension Door designates specifically a "willing creature", how would unconscious creatures be handled? For example, can you dimension door after grabbing an unconscious ally? What about an enemy after rendering them unconscious?
My first instinct would be to default to their prior attitude toward the spellcaster but that opens other questions such as if the now unconscious creature had been under a charm spell prior to falling unconscious.
Could an ally be considered willing if they cannot give consent, and conversely would an enemy be able to be unwilling if they can not protest?
I'd allow unconscious creatures to be affected. Using the spell to port up 500 feet and drop your victim if pretty nasty if you are prepared and they are not, but it is a 4th level spell, it should be fairly potent. You can do the same with Fly, it just takes longer.
Creatures under Charm or similar effects would require a check of some kind to be affected. Probably Charisma. Maybe a saving throw. A conscious creature should have some way of avoiding the effect.
I'd allow unconscious creatures to be affected. Using the spell to port up 500 feet and drop your victim if pretty nasty if you are prepared and they are not, but it is a 4th level spell, it should be fairly potent. You can do the same with Fly, it just takes longer.
Creatures under Charm or similar effects would require a check of some kind to be affected. Probably Charisma. Maybe a saving throw. A conscious creature should have some way of avoiding the effect.
I know a conscious creature just basically gets to say "nah I don't wanna" and they are not able to be brought with. Under charm, they are considered an ally but can still make the decision whether to be "willing" or not. But as for unconscious, that's the tricky bit. Because yeah, being able to drop some poor fool from 500 feet up would be pretty cruddy but like you said, it's a 4th level spell and they did make the bad life choices that led to them being unconscious. I was more asking for the situation of getting an unconscious ally out of a scrape but thought i'd open the question and make it more general in reference to any spell that specifies "willing creature"
I find that in context there's very little debate about the topic until someone directly brings it up, usually an unconscious rules lawyer making things more difficult for their party.
If we're using plain English language, being willing is to give consent. To give consent is active, meaning an unconscious person cannot consent, meaning cannot be considered willing.
In real life you can encounter similar situations, for example a friend who passed out drunk is not willing to have their face enhanced by a sharpie mustache.
The same friend may be thankful, however, that you pulled them into a cab with you and dropped them into their bed.
At the gaming table, I'd probably consider a creature willing for the latter scenario...
I find that in context there's very little debate about the topic until someone directly brings it up, usually an unconscious rules lawyer making things more difficult for their party.
The context that brought up my question initially was one of our party had rendered an enemy unconscious. They then wanted to grab that enemy and Dimension Door away to separate it from the rest of the fight. DM was unsure, and so were we. If I were the DM I'd most likely just default to the willingness of the creature prior to it being rendered unconscious, taking charms and persuasions into effect. But I wanted to ask other opinions so I could offer other DM's a more well rounded answer aside from simply my own instincts.
I'd argue that the restriction of "must be willing" is to prevent you from doing said nasty thing with an enemy. I don't think its intended so you'll have to ask before saving a friendly. So I'd just allow it.
I think basing the assessment off of “how would the creature feel about it if they knew about it” is sensible, which is almost always the same as defaulting to how they felt before they went unconscious. The instance where it’s different is if they were charmed or something but they were rendered unconscious in such a way that the charm ended. I’d call them unwilling in such a circumstance.
I'd allow unconscious creatures to be affected. Using the spell to port up 500 feet and drop your victim if pretty nasty if you are prepared and they are not, but it is a 4th level spell, it should be fairly potent. You can do the same with Fly, it just takes longer.
Creatures under Charm or similar effects would require a check of some kind to be affected. Probably Charisma. Maybe a saving throw. A conscious creature should have some way of avoiding the effect.
I know a conscious creature just basically gets to say "nah I don't wanna" and they are not able to be brought with. Under charm, they are considered an ally but can still make the decision whether to be "willing" or not. But as for unconscious, that's the tricky bit. Because yeah, being able to drop some poor fool from 500 feet up would be pretty cruddy but like you said, it's a 4th level spell and they did make the bad life choices that led to them being unconscious. I was more asking for the situation of getting an unconscious ally out of a scrape but thought i'd open the question and make it more general in reference to any spell that specifies "willing creature"
As an aside: the charmed condition only prevents an enemy from attacking who they're charmed by, and the charmer has advantage on social rolls against the charmee. That's it. The Charm Person and Charm Monster spells dial that up slightly by also making the charmee regard the charmer as a friendly acquaintance, which is very far from an ally - it's more like what you think of an affable bartender you met for the first time today. You'd probably still decline a suspicious offer to teleport.
I would say since the spell already magically knows if the body is alive - you can just teleport with a corpse, no consent required - that it goes one step beyond and applies the dictionary definition of willing (since 5E uses "plain English" instead of defining game terms), and by definition, an unconscious person can't consent, so the spell will refuse to take them.
I'd argue that an unconscious creature is akin to an Object, in that they don't provide willingness one way or the other. This would mean that a player could Dimension Door an unconscious person.
However, I'd also argue that doing so would take up the extra room of the spell, so that they cant take a unconscious creature *and* another willing creature.
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I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
I'd argue that an unconscious creature is akin to an Object, in that they don't provide willingness one way or the other. This would mean that a player could Dimension Door an unconscious person.
However, I'd also argue that doing so would take up the extra room of the spell, so that they cant take a unconscious creature *and* another willing creature.
An unconscious creature is definitely not an object in game terms, and your suggestion has incredibly gross real world implications as well.
I'd argue that an unconscious creature is akin to an Object, in that they don't provide willingness one way or the other. This would mean that a player could Dimension Door an unconscious person.
However, I'd also argue that doing so would take up the extra room of the spell, so that they cant take a unconscious creature *and* another willing creature.
An unconscious creature is definitely not an object in game terms, and your suggestion has incredibly gross real world implications as well.
I think they maybe thinking of a dead creature which is technically correct.
I'd argue that an unconscious creature is akin to an Object, in that they don't provide willingness one way or the other. This would mean that a player could Dimension Door an unconscious person.
However, I'd also argue that doing so would take up the extra room of the spell, so that they cant take a unconscious creature *and* another willing creature.
An unconscious creature is definitely not an object in game terms, and your suggestion has incredibly gross real world implications as well.
The mechanics of a tabletop game imply nothing of real world ethical behavior. It's pretty gross in the real world to set someone on fire but there aren't any implications raised just because the party's wizard toasted a bunch of goblins with a fireball.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I like Lyxen's notion of a Wis save against going. It follows the rules closely, as unconscious is allowed to make Wis saves, and I think would be the best application. As a DM, I would likely ask the player "Where are you going with him?" If it was 500 feet up, then I would want the enemy to have SOME kind of chance to thwart it, but if it was to the other side of a locked door or something, I may simply allow it. I'd be dynamic on the ruling, personally, but the Wis save sounds like the best "Rules lawyer" answer.
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Talk to your Players.Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
I like Lyxen's notion of a Wis save against going. It follows the rules closely, as unconscious is allowed to make Wis saves, and I think would be the best application. As a DM, I would likely ask the player "Where are you going with him?" If it was 500 feet up, then I would want the enemy to have SOME kind of chance to thwart it, but if it was to the other side of a locked door or something, I may simply allow it. I'd be dynamic on the ruling, personally, but the Wis save sounds like the best "Rules lawyer" answer.
I would argue that the existence of the wis save indicates that the creature is definitely unwilling.
First off I want to thank EVERYONE who posted here for their input. Immensely helpful. It does seem to be boiling down to another case of DM discretion so I guess it'll be on a case by case or scenario basis but this has definitely given me more viewpoints to consider when and if this happens while I am the DM. As well as points I can argue for if i'm ever a player trying to use this scenario.
JC's take is that unconcious people can't consent. I respect where he's coming from, but it doensn't answer the question. To put it in DnD terms, consent is a free action with a verbal or somatic component, whereas willingness is a state of mind. In the real world, the distinction is academic, because we can't magically read minds, and an unconcious mind isn't capable of forming coherent opinions/preferences. But...
In DnD worlds, sentient creatures have souls that are not entirely contingent on the state of the creature's body - they continue to exist, hold opinions, and posess agency, even if their bodies are totally disintegrated. Spells like resurrection explicitly depend on the willingness of a person who's body is dead. Similarly, an unconcious person can continue to use their intelligence,wisdom,charisma to resist magic effects.
I'd say the more difficult question is which kinds of duress can make an unfriendly creature "willing". Am I "willing" to be teleported to a dubious fate if the alternative is certain death at the hands of the wizard's party? What if I'm charmed, or dominated, or posessed?
Willing/unwilling are not defined terms in the ruleset so we must default to english. To me an unconscious creature is unaware of its surroundings so it can't be willing.
If a spell such as Dimension Door designates specifically a "willing creature", how would unconscious creatures be handled? For example, can you dimension door after grabbing an unconscious ally? What about an enemy after rendering them unconscious?
My first instinct would be to default to their prior attitude toward the spellcaster but that opens other questions such as if the now unconscious creature had been under a charm spell prior to falling unconscious.
Could an ally be considered willing if they cannot give consent, and conversely would an enemy be able to be unwilling if they can not protest?
Thoughts?
I'd allow unconscious creatures to be affected. Using the spell to port up 500 feet and drop your victim if pretty nasty if you are prepared and they are not, but it is a 4th level spell, it should be fairly potent. You can do the same with Fly, it just takes longer.
Creatures under Charm or similar effects would require a check of some kind to be affected. Probably Charisma. Maybe a saving throw. A conscious creature should have some way of avoiding the effect.
<Insert clever signature here>
I know a conscious creature just basically gets to say "nah I don't wanna" and they are not able to be brought with. Under charm, they are considered an ally but can still make the decision whether to be "willing" or not. But as for unconscious, that's the tricky bit. Because yeah, being able to drop some poor fool from 500 feet up would be pretty cruddy but like you said, it's a 4th level spell and they did make the bad life choices that led to them being unconscious. I was more asking for the situation of getting an unconscious ally out of a scrape but thought i'd open the question and make it more general in reference to any spell that specifies "willing creature"
I find that in context there's very little debate about the topic until someone directly brings it up, usually an unconscious rules lawyer making things more difficult for their party.
If we're using plain English language, being willing is to give consent. To give consent is active, meaning an unconscious person cannot consent, meaning cannot be considered willing.
In real life you can encounter similar situations, for example a friend who passed out drunk is not willing to have their face enhanced by a sharpie mustache.
The same friend may be thankful, however, that you pulled them into a cab with you and dropped them into their bed.
At the gaming table, I'd probably consider a creature willing for the latter scenario...
More Interesting Lock Picking Rules
The context that brought up my question initially was one of our party had rendered an enemy unconscious. They then wanted to grab that enemy and Dimension Door away to separate it from the rest of the fight. DM was unsure, and so were we. If I were the DM I'd most likely just default to the willingness of the creature prior to it being rendered unconscious, taking charms and persuasions into effect. But I wanted to ask other opinions so I could offer other DM's a more well rounded answer aside from simply my own instincts.
I'd argue that the restriction of "must be willing" is to prevent you from doing said nasty thing with an enemy. I don't think its intended so you'll have to ask before saving a friendly. So I'd just allow it.
I think basing the assessment off of “how would the creature feel about it if they knew about it” is sensible, which is almost always the same as defaulting to how they felt before they went unconscious. The instance where it’s different is if they were charmed or something but they were rendered unconscious in such a way that the charm ended. I’d call them unwilling in such a circumstance.
As an aside: the charmed condition only prevents an enemy from attacking who they're charmed by, and the charmer has advantage on social rolls against the charmee. That's it. The Charm Person and Charm Monster spells dial that up slightly by also making the charmee regard the charmer as a friendly acquaintance, which is very far from an ally - it's more like what you think of an affable bartender you met for the first time today. You'd probably still decline a suspicious offer to teleport.
I would say since the spell already magically knows if the body is alive - you can just teleport with a corpse, no consent required - that it goes one step beyond and applies the dictionary definition of willing (since 5E uses "plain English" instead of defining game terms), and by definition, an unconscious person can't consent, so the spell will refuse to take them.
What if the creature agrees to it before?
"I saw you do that door magic thinige....if I am ever unconscious I give you permission to drag my sorry ass away from wherever I dropped"
I'd argue that an unconscious creature is akin to an Object, in that they don't provide willingness one way or the other. This would mean that a player could Dimension Door an unconscious person.
However, I'd also argue that doing so would take up the extra room of the spell, so that they cant take a unconscious creature *and* another willing creature.
I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
An unconscious creature is definitely not an object in game terms, and your suggestion has incredibly gross real world implications as well.
I think they maybe thinking of a dead creature which is technically correct.
The mechanics of a tabletop game imply nothing of real world ethical behavior. It's pretty gross in the real world to set someone on fire but there aren't any implications raised just because the party's wizard toasted a bunch of goblins with a fireball.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Turn it around.
Ask the players, "How would you want it to work if an enemy tried this on your PC?"
I like Lyxen's notion of a Wis save against going. It follows the rules closely, as unconscious is allowed to make Wis saves, and I think would be the best application. As a DM, I would likely ask the player "Where are you going with him?" If it was 500 feet up, then I would want the enemy to have SOME kind of chance to thwart it, but if it was to the other side of a locked door or something, I may simply allow it. I'd be dynamic on the ruling, personally, but the Wis save sounds like the best "Rules lawyer" answer.
Talk to your Players. Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
I would argue that the existence of the wis save indicates that the creature is definitely unwilling.
First off I want to thank EVERYONE who posted here for their input. Immensely helpful. It does seem to be boiling down to another case of DM discretion so I guess it'll be on a case by case or scenario basis but this has definitely given me more viewpoints to consider when and if this happens while I am the DM. As well as points I can argue for if i'm ever a player trying to use this scenario.
Thank you all again. I love this community
JC's take is that unconcious people can't consent. I respect where he's coming from, but it doensn't answer the question.
To put it in DnD terms, consent is a free action with a verbal or somatic component, whereas willingness is a state of mind. In the real world, the distinction is academic, because we can't magically read minds, and an unconcious mind isn't capable of forming coherent opinions/preferences. But...
In DnD worlds, sentient creatures have souls that are not entirely contingent on the state of the creature's body - they continue to exist, hold opinions, and posess agency, even if their bodies are totally disintegrated. Spells like resurrection explicitly depend on the willingness of a person who's body is dead. Similarly, an unconcious person can continue to use their intelligence,wisdom,charisma to resist magic effects.
I'd say the more difficult question is which kinds of duress can make an unfriendly creature "willing". Am I "willing" to be teleported to a dubious fate if the alternative is certain death at the hands of the wizard's party? What if I'm charmed, or dominated, or posessed?
Willing/unwilling are not defined terms in the ruleset so we must default to english. To me an unconscious creature is unaware of its surroundings so it can't be willing.
If its of interest to anyone, while not official ruling, the Dev take on the subject was: Can you take a unconscious target with you using Dimension Door? (sageadvice.eu)