I can see why he is asking, if he were either an AT or EK only he would have 3 L1 spell slots, because he is both he has to use the multiclass table and he has 3 L1 slots total for both classes - and will have until he reaches 7/7 because of the “round down” rule. By taking even 1 level of wizard you jump to 4 L1 & 2 L2 slots which would be significant.
Don't know where you get 7/7 from.
As soon as he hits 6 in either EK or AT he will have 4L1 spell slots and 2L2 spell slots, if he concentrates on one class that will be in two levels so wizard only brings that one level earlier. In either case the L2 slots will only be used to upcast L1 spells. At 7/4 while the slots remeain the same he woould then be able to cast 2nd level spells. If only taking a single level of wizard it would actually delay the time he gets access to 2nd level spells, taking more than one level of wizard delays further his fighter or rogue features.
The main advantage of taking a level of wizard (or indeed multiclassing casters in general) is the versatility, they know a lot of spells. A single class level 9 AT knows 3 cantrips and 6 levelled spells (level 1 or 2) A single class level 9 AT knows 2 cantrips and 6 levelled spells (level 1 or 2) An 5/4 split (either way) knows 4 cantrips and 8 levelled spells (must be level 1) A 4/4 with a level of wizard knows 7 cantrips and 12 level one spells (with int +2 or +3 there will be 2 or 3 of these they can only cast ritually if at all on any given day)
The triple class may get to know more spells if they are able ot find them as well.
Spell versatility has diminsihing returns, for example it a single class caster might only have one combat cantrip (say firebolt), this is a problem when you come up against a creature with a high AC or resistance (or immunity) to fire, being multiclassing allows you to learn more spells so you can learn a second combat cantrip (say mind sliver). You don't however really need a third because it is very unlikely that you will come accross a create with high AC and high INT or resistance to both fire and psychic damage.
You only make a gain in the number of spells known when you take the first level of a new class so a single level dip gives you all the versatility.
Welcome to “foggy mental breakdown” but also realize that 2 levels is 30k EXP vs 14k EXP for the one level to get the spell slots, and let’s not worry too much about the levels it’s still double the number of slots he has now so it’s significant.
I appreciate all of the input, including from Memnosyne, to whom I was rude earlier. I'm sorry about that. To give a little background, this is my first character since 1985. I'm going more for fun RP than min/max. My character is using the Two Weapon Fighting style, and uses two shortswords. His background is archaeology. His party consists of a Warlock, a Sorcerer, an Artificer, a Tempest Cleric and a Monk. Consequently, he is one of only two primarily-melee-based characters. He generally wades into combat with his owl giving Help, and mostly uses his 1st level spell slots for Mage Armor and Shield, with some utility capability when out of combat. I've avoided Concentration spells and spells with a DC, and the DM let me swap out Enchantment for Transmutation for the AT. I'm not sure how many levels this game will go, so planning for maxxing out at 20 levels probably isn't wise. I hadn't thought about where he goes beyond 7/7. I was interested in the one-level Wizard dip purely for the versatility and the spell slots, and to bolster his Background with more utility spells. He's not really a spellcaster as much as a fighter/rogue with some low level spells.
I’m not really sure why he bothers with mage armor that would replace armor (badly) not add to it. He is better off with either medium or heavy armor depending on how much Dex bonus you want to use. Given what your doing I would focus on EK for the next 3 levels, you really need that second attack at L5, the ASI/feat at L6 and War Magic at L7, in the process you will get L2 spells in EK and get the extra spell slots at L6. I would actually take EK8 just to get the ASI as it may be the last one you get. Then L5-7 in AT with each level giving you something useful. If the game goes on further I think I would grab AT8 for the ASI again. At that point IF the game keeps going I would consider the wizard third class. You are a L4 caster on the multiclass table but one more level in AT and/or EK will shift that to L5 and then L6 at L18 but your not going any higher with those 2 subclasses so if you head to L20 going wizard would move you up to a L8 caster.
I appreciate all of the input, including from Memnosyne, to whom I was rude earlier. I'm sorry about that. To give a little background, this is my first character since 1985. I'm going more for fun RP than min/max. My character is using the Two Weapon Fighting style, and uses two shortswords. His background is archaeology. His party consists of a Warlock, a Sorcerer, an Artificer, a Tempest Cleric and a Monk. Consequently, he is one of only two primarily-melee-based characters. He generally wades into combat with his owl giving Help, and mostly uses his 1st level spell slots for Mage Armor and Shield, with some utility capability when out of combat. I've avoided Concentration spells and spells with a DC, and the DM let me swap out Enchantment for Transmutation for the AT. I'm not sure how many levels this game will go, so planning for maxxing out at 20 levels probably isn't wise. I hadn't thought about where he goes beyond 7/7. I was interested in the one-level Wizard dip purely for the versatility and the spell slots, and to bolster his Background with more utility spells. He's not really a spellcaster as much as a fighter/rogue with some low level spells.
Wait, mage armor? You don't wear armor? I guess you probably started as a Rogue then?
in any case, especially if spell casting isnt needed and since you are effectively the party's tank by default, I would probably focus on EK more since that seems to be your primary role anyway. Nothing stops you from bringing up your Rogue levels later on to grab whatever class feature you want but EK 13 is a must if you ever want access to 3rd level spells and the bigger hit die will help you alot, especially since you use light/no armor.
Out of curiosity, what race is your character? If he's an Elf or Half-elf, have you considered using/finding a double-bladed scimitar and possibly picking up Revenant Blade? Its a pretty decent weapon, tons of cool factor and it's superior to two weapon fighting (unless you already have Dual Wielder... but then you'd probably be using 2 longswords). Revenant Blade gives you +1 AC and makes the weapon have the finesse property, letting you use it to Sneak Attack and use your Dex modifier. Furthermore, being a two-handed weapon, it would also more easily let you use some spells like Shield which require a free hand to cast. RAW, if you don't have a free hand, you can't cast spells with somatic components unless you have the War Caster feat. Food for thought.
Anyway, if you continue going EK, you will get 2nd lvl spells in 3 levels and eventually 3rd lvl spells, 6 levels later. If you really want a specific spell/cantrip or two that you can't get from the Wizard spell list you already have access to (cough cough, hex and eldritch blast), I'd just grab the magic initiate feat and pick those up.
Alternatively, you may want to look into the feats Shadow Touched or Fey Touched to provide you with some additional utility pells.
Fey Touched is clearly the superior mechanical choice though, offering you the amazing misty step along with your choice in an amazing list. Notable save-less options if your int is low are Hex, Hunter's Mark, Bless, Gift of Alacrity, Heroism, etc. Some of these do require concentration though but if you were already planning on getting Resilient: Con and/or War Caster at some point (if you haven't already) and you have decent Con, it shouldn't be a problem.
Shadow Touched gives you invisibility which is neat and your choice in a handful of spells but it only has 8 to choose from compared to Fey Touched's 19 and the options are a bit lack luster. WotC really dropped the ball on that one. Regardless, notable options would be Disguise Self, False Life and Silent Image.
The neat thing about these two feats though are that one, they are half feats letting you bring up any mental stat by +1 and they both let you cast both spells you pick up once/long rest without expanding a spell slot but you can still choose to do so if you want to use it again.
This artificially "boosts" the slots you get without needing to multiclass further as well as bringing up a stat and being a great roleplay opportunity.
Again, you do what is fun for you but from an optimizing perspective on your current build and party set up, bringing EK up to 13 and then continuing on your Rogue up to 7 afterwards is probably the best choice. Hopefully some things in all this helps! Trying to provide you with as many options as possible so you can build what is most fun for you!
Halfling. He's got Dex 20, so his AC is 19 with Dual Wielder and Mage Armor, and he doesn't have disadvantage on Stealth. He's still a Rogue, after all.
He's got Dex 20, so his AC is 19 with Dual Wielder and Mage Armor, and he doesn't have disadvantage on Stealth. He's still a Rogue, after all.
Ah ok, so he already has Dual Wielder. Don't know if you're simply using Shortswords for flavor then but you're not limited to Light weapons if you're using that. You still can't cast somatic spells without War Caster or dropping one of the swords though. Do you have other feats or just an ASI?
Regardless, you should really pick up the War Caster feat you can get from the ASI at Fighter 6 if you don't already have it. Don't know if your DM has just not been paying attention or home-ruled it but otherwise, you've probably been playing the item drop/pick-up dance between rounds to be able to cast important reaction spells like Shield or Absorb Elements, thus reducing your AC and opening yourself up to an enemy kicking your weapon away. Picking up War Caster will probably nudge you into using some concentration spells a bit more often too since it lets you have advantage on concentration saves which will definitely be good for you.
He's a halfling, so he uses two shortswords. Dual Wielder (freebie feat from the DM), Squat Nimbleness, and the DM lets him use his shortsword as an Arcane Focus. Dual Wielder would let him draw both swords anyway. He used an ASI to get to Dex 20.
He's a halfling, so he uses two shortswords. Dual Wielder (freebie feat from the DM), Squat Nimbleness, and the DM lets him use his shortsword as an Arcane Focus. Dual Wielder would let him draw both swords anyway. He used an ASI to get to Dex 20.
Ok, its cool that your DM is lenient and lets you get away with that. Two things though:
1. You can still use longswords as a halfling in 5e. The only drawback to being a small race is that you get disadvantage for using heavy weapons. Heavy weapons are Greatswords, greataxes and other big two-handed weapons. Longswords and all other one-handed non-heavy weapons are RAW-legal. I don't know if this is another home-rule or not though. Just wanted to point it out in case you wanted to upgrade your d6s to d8s. Not a HUGE upgrade but still noticeable.
2. Even with the DM letting you use the sword as an arcane focus, I'd still recommend the War Caster feat for the other two bullet points, namely advantage on concentration checks and secondly, to enable you to put the hurt into any enemy that dares try and get away from you once you're in melee range. Instead of getting a regular OA, you'll get to use a spell, most tanks who do this (myself included) usually use the Booming Blade cantrip effectively giving your OA a free damage boost while still letting you apply your Sneak Attack to it if applicable. This also makes you more "sticky" since if you hit with that OA, enemies will have to choose to either keep moving out of range, eating Booming Blade's rider effect or stay put, making you a better tank and more effectively protecting your party.
In War Caster's case, I'd mostly consider being able to cast with your hands full a bonus really, the other two bullet points are just that good.
He's still using shortswords for pretty much the same reason that the DM is letting him use a sword as a focus: It works thematically for the character. It would be a little odd for a halfling to use big-person weapons. That's a limitation he's willing to take.
It's a fun roleplay. He kind-of has a little bit of a Napoleon complex. He's taken the optimism and lucky aspect of halflings to another level, and throws himself out there, expecting to prevail. He's still the best melee character in the party and has the most hit points and best AC (if he can cast Mage Armor). He's the relative tank in a decidedly non-tanky party.
He doesn't have Booming Blade because that didn't work well with Two weapon Fighting, but if he can get WarCaster, I might have to figure a way to get it.
I'm considering Metamagic Adept, which would give him Subtle Spell and either Extended or Distant. No verbal or somatic components.
Subtle is great, between Extended and Distant, Extended is probably better for you. Distant usually doesn't see much use already on a full caster, even less so on an EK. Doubling the duration of your self buffs like Mage Armor will go a long way into saving your spell slots.
He's still using shortswords for pretty much the same reason that the DM is letting him use a sword as a focus: It works thematically for the character. It would be a little odd for a halfling to use big-person weapons. That's a limitation he's willing to take.
It's a fun roleplay. He kind-of has a little bit of a Napoleon complex. He's taken the optimism and lucky aspect of halflings to another level, and throws himself out there, expecting to prevail. He's still the best melee character in the party and has the most hit points and best AC (if he can cast Mage Armor). He's the relative tank in a decidedly non-tanky party.
He doesn't have Booming Blade because that didn't work well with Two weapon Fighting, but if he can get WarCaster, I might have to figure a way to get it.
Makes sense, kudos to you. Sounds like a fun character. Other options that lend themselves well to a "lucky" halfling character are the racial feats Bountiful Luck and Second Chance along with the staple Lucky feat.
For Booming Blade, you do have a total of 5 cantrips right now, correct? Mage Hand + 2 more from AT and 2 from EK? Don't know what you picked already but you will get a 3rd cantrip at EK 10. Maybe a bit late though depending on what feats you wanted to grab. If you do go the War Caster + BB route, maybe you can convince your DM to switch out one of your lesser-used cantrips for BB at an ASI? Tasha has optional rules to let most classes with cantrips do this one way or another. Wizards can do it after a long rest, Artificers at every level up. Warlocks, Druids, Clerics and Sorcerers can do it when they gain an ASI. It feels weird to me that they purposefully left out AT and EK.
I actually started with BB, but realized that RAW, you can’t use it and get a Bonus Action attack, nor can you use it along with Extra Attack.Therefore, it’s really only useful if I get Warcaster. The DM is really easy going, and let me swap it out on an ASI. He’d probably let me do it again, maybe with a little head shaking. My cantrips are Firebolt, Mage Hand, Mending, Minor Illusion and Prestidigitation. If I get a magic shortbow, I could drop Firebolt. we seem to be fighting a lot of creatures with resistance to non-magical weapons.
I actually started with BB, but realized that RAW, you can’t use it and get a Bonus Action attack, nor can you use it along with Extra Attack.Therefore, it’s really only useful if I get Warcaster. The DM is really easy going, and let me swap it out on an ASI. He’d probably let me do it again, maybe with a little head shaking. My cantrips are Firebolt, Mage Hand, Mending, Minor Illusion and Prestidigitation. If I get a magic shortbow, I could drop Firebolt. we seem to be fighting a lot of creatures with resistance to non-magical weapons.
Technically, once you hit level 7 EK, you CAN use it and get a bonus action attack but you could do that even if you're fighting with only one weapon and you'd have to balance between getting off 2 regular attacks on your mainhand and a bonus action attack on your offhand vs using BB on your mainhand and then getting a bonus action attack on your mainhand again. This effectively renders your second weapon a bit "useless" for a couple of levels here. I say useless but it's just that you deal less damage when using pure weapon attacks due to War Magic being amazing and you using d6s over d8s. It is still plenty flavorful though and once you pick up the Fighter's second extra attack, you'll make up that lost ground. Here is some math to illustrate my point:
CL 11 (Presumably EK 7/AT 4)
BB + War Magic = BB now does +2d8 on hit/+3d8 if target moves -> (1d6+5)x2 + 2d8 = 26 DPR without the rider + 3d8 if target moves = 39.5 DPR
2 attacks + BA attack from Dual Wielder = (1d6+5)x3 = 25.5 DPR
CL 15 (Presumably, EK 11/AT 4) - Here you'd make up the lost DPR if/when you reach EK 11 to get your 3rd extra attack:
BB + War Magic = Unchanged -> 26 DPR without the rider + 3d8 if target moves = 39.5 DPR
3 attacks + BA attack from Dual Wielder = (1d6+5)x4 = 34 DPR
CL 17 (Presumably, EK 13/AT 4 or EK 11/AT 6, doesn't make a difference either way) - Here, BB + War Magic again becomes stronger but not enough to completely make up for the DPR on 4 attacks without the rider effect but it is much closer:
BB + War Magic = BB now does +3d8 on hit/+4d8 if target moves -> (1d6+5)x2 + 3d8 = 30.5 DPR without the rider + 4d8 if target moves = 48.5 DPR
3 attacks + BA attack from Dual Wielder = Unchanged -> 34 DPR
As you can see, once you reach EK 7, using Booming Blade + one attack is strictly better then using 3 attacks with TWF/dual wielder. However, that changes once you reach EK 11 and get another attack, effectively letting you make 4 attacks with TWF/dual wielder. At that point, you'd be able to pick and choose between "do I deal more damage to get rid of this enemy more quickly?" and "This thing is strong, I don't want it to go anywhere so I'll use Booming Blade". The latter option is especially tempting if you have two enemies that you need to lockdown since you can only use one reaction. This will make your character more versatile, fitting in with your concept while still being mechanically sound. You will get a few "down levels" where TWF+dual wielder is consistently a worse choice for a minimum of 4 levels though from EK 7 to EK 11.
Obviously, this math assumes you're NOT using a magic weapon, adding any +s to each attack you make will skew your avg DPR in favor of using multiple attacks without BB but BB remains a valuable control choice and an even better one with the War Caster feat.
A reminder for all of us (yes me too) giving advice and theory crafting other folk’s characters. We need to start where they are not where they hope to be. Talking about what it will be like when a L8 character is L11 as a starting point is sort of getting ahead of oneself.it’s nice to see the calls and helpful when, but first he has to get there. As a L8 character he has accumulated a bit over 34k EXP, to get to L11 he needs @50k MORE EXP. he ain’t getting there in the next 3-5 gaming sessions so let’s theory craft from where he is now. Let me ask the OP- how did you get to 4/4, did you alternate classes or work on one then the other? How you get to 7/7 matters at least somewhat in all our advice.
It took me a minute to realize what the OP was really after (spell slots not spells) initially so the suggestion for an initiate feat was rightly ignored. That said initiate feats are great story telling/roleplay devices for character development (rather than optimization). I think of them as often being the result of temptation being followed by redemption or something similar. Think of the feat as a abilities granted to tempt a character into a change of some sort by a powerful entity. Then they either individually or via others resists the temptation to go in that direction but they retain the granted powers. In a case like the OP’s I could see there interest in magic being used by a power trying to make a warlock pact with them and them almost doing it but then stopping at the last moment and being left with the warlock initiate feat (perhaps chill touch and Eldritch blast cantrips and the Hex L1spell) .
A good way to get spell slots (if your casting stat is odd) is Fey Touched. It's functionally like getting an additional 1st and 2nd level spell slot, and two more known spells. No sacrifice in class levels.
A reminder for all of us (yes me too) giving advice and theory crafting other folk’s characters. We need to start where they are not where they hope to be. Talking about what it will be like when a L8 character is L11 as a starting point is sort of getting ahead of oneself.it’s nice to see the calls and helpful when, but first he has to get there. As a L8 character he has accumulated a bit over 34k EXP, to get to L11 he needs @50k MORE EXP. he ain’t getting there in the next 3-5 gaming sessions so let’s theory craft from where he is now. Let me ask the OP- how did you get to 4/4, did you alternate classes or work on one then the other? How you get to 7/7 matters at least somewhat in all our advice.
A fair point, I tend to get ahead of myself because I LOVE theorycrafting and number-crunching in general. I still think that knowing what lies ahead can impact the decision he makes going forward whether that is to first go EK 5-7 or up to 11 before bringing up any AT levels at all or to do both one after another. As I keep stating with every post, this is HIS character and HIS fun. He can play it as he wants, all I want to do is point out possible options which fit both mechanically and thematically based on what we know so he can pick and choose what he wants.
We all do, and yes theory crafting is fun and it can inform what you might want to do. It is however definitely metagaming too. I try, at least occasionally, to simply look at the next levels and the options and what would most benefit the adventuring character right now. So- going into level 9 from AT4/EK4 option 1: AT 5 - 5+con bonus HP, +1d6 sneak attack damage, uncanny dodge (reaction to halve damage from 1 hit each round), no change to casting option 2: EK 5 - 6+con bonus HP, 2 attacks with attack action (3 attacks with dual wielding bonus action) , no change to casting option 3: Wizard 1 - 4+con bonus HP, ritual spell casting, +3 cantrips, +6 L1 spells, +3 spell slots including 2 L2 for upcasting
Each has its benefits and choosing one means you have to wait at least 1 level for the others. Given that you are more tank and less spellcaster or rogue apparently I recommend option 2. Then you get the level 10 choice: options 1&3 are the same option 2 becomes: EK 6 - 6+con bonus HP, ASI/Feat, casting gains 3 slots (1L1 & 2L2) (and next level could get you war magic (cantrip + bonus action attack) )
To my mind this is a harder choice options 1 & 2 are pretty close - depending on just how important to you the spell slots are will probably determine which you take. If they aren’t that important I just might go with option 1 - uncanny dodge is going to make you much more survivable especially if your not able to improve your AC via magic items.
this is a very different sort of theory crafting to what we normally do but often much more helpful.
I started with Rogue One, then alternated between F and R. I didn’t really look at what the benefits were too much. It just seemed to make sense that since he was both the scout and the melee guy, he’d go up evenly in both. I do think I took EK3 before AT3. That got me Find Familiar, Mage Armor and Shield, and I ditched my leather. My current melee weapons are a +2 shortsword, +2 dagger and +1 shortsword. He just got the +1 short sword. He needs to identify and has to attune to it, so hopefully it has some nifty features. He’s expert in Stealth and Perception. His reaction spells are Shield, Absorb Elements and Feather Fall. Uncanny Dodge and an extra sneak attack die would be nice, but the Extra Attack would be more impactful. Getting W1 would be fun and give him more slots and more versatility. After reading everyone’s comments, I’m leaning toward focusing on EK for a while. Extra Attack, ASI and War Magic/2nd level spells are tempting. That would allow me to take Darkness, and I could take the Devil’s Sight Invocation. Lots of options.
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Don't know where you get 7/7 from.
As soon as he hits 6 in either EK or AT he will have 4L1 spell slots and 2L2 spell slots, if he concentrates on one class that will be in two levels so wizard only brings that one level earlier. In either case the L2 slots will only be used to upcast L1 spells. At 7/4 while the slots remeain the same he woould then be able to cast 2nd level spells. If only taking a single level of wizard it would actually delay the time he gets access to 2nd level spells, taking more than one level of wizard delays further his fighter or rogue features.
The main advantage of taking a level of wizard (or indeed multiclassing casters in general) is the versatility, they know a lot of spells.
A single class level 9 AT knows 3 cantrips and 6 levelled spells (level 1 or 2)
A single class level 9 AT knows 2 cantrips and 6 levelled spells (level 1 or 2)
An 5/4 split (either way) knows 4 cantrips and 8 levelled spells (must be level 1)
A 4/4 with a level of wizard knows 7 cantrips and 12 level one spells (with int +2 or +3 there will be 2 or 3 of these they can only cast ritually if at all on any given day)
The triple class may get to know more spells if they are able ot find them as well.
Spell versatility has diminsihing returns, for example it a single class caster might only have one combat cantrip (say firebolt), this is a problem when you come up against a creature with a high AC or resistance (or immunity) to fire, being multiclassing allows you to learn more spells so you can learn a second combat cantrip (say mind sliver). You don't however really need a third because it is very unlikely that you will come accross a create with high AC and high INT or resistance to both fire and psychic damage.
You only make a gain in the number of spells known when you take the first level of a new class so a single level dip gives you all the versatility.
Welcome to “foggy mental breakdown” but also realize that 2 levels is 30k EXP vs 14k EXP for the one level to get the spell slots, and let’s not worry too much about the levels it’s still double the number of slots he has now so it’s significant.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I appreciate all of the input, including from Memnosyne, to whom I was rude earlier. I'm sorry about that. To give a little background, this is my first character since 1985. I'm going more for fun RP than min/max. My character is using the Two Weapon Fighting style, and uses two shortswords. His background is archaeology. His party consists of a Warlock, a Sorcerer, an Artificer, a Tempest Cleric and a Monk. Consequently, he is one of only two primarily-melee-based characters. He generally wades into combat with his owl giving Help, and mostly uses his 1st level spell slots for Mage Armor and Shield, with some utility capability when out of combat. I've avoided Concentration spells and spells with a DC, and the DM let me swap out Enchantment for Transmutation for the AT. I'm not sure how many levels this game will go, so planning for maxxing out at 20 levels probably isn't wise. I hadn't thought about where he goes beyond 7/7. I was interested in the one-level Wizard dip purely for the versatility and the spell slots, and to bolster his Background with more utility spells. He's not really a spellcaster as much as a fighter/rogue with some low level spells.
I’m not really sure why he bothers with mage armor that would replace armor (badly) not add to it. He is better off with either medium or heavy armor depending on how much Dex bonus you want to use. Given what your doing I would focus on EK for the next 3 levels, you really need that second attack at L5, the ASI/feat at L6 and War Magic at L7, in the process you will get L2 spells in EK and get the extra spell slots at L6. I would actually take EK8 just to get the ASI as it may be the last one you get. Then L5-7 in AT with each level giving you something useful. If the game goes on further I think I would grab AT8 for the ASI again. At that point IF the game keeps going I would consider the wizard third class. You are a L4 caster on the multiclass table but one more level in AT and/or EK will shift that to L5 and then L6 at L18 but your not going any higher with those 2 subclasses so if you head to L20 going wizard would move you up to a L8 caster.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Wait, mage armor? You don't wear armor? I guess you probably started as a Rogue then?
in any case, especially if spell casting isnt needed and since you are effectively the party's tank by default, I would probably focus on EK more since that seems to be your primary role anyway. Nothing stops you from bringing up your Rogue levels later on to grab whatever class feature you want but EK 13 is a must if you ever want access to 3rd level spells and the bigger hit die will help you alot, especially since you use light/no armor.
Out of curiosity, what race is your character? If he's an Elf or Half-elf, have you considered using/finding a double-bladed scimitar and possibly picking up Revenant Blade? Its a pretty decent weapon, tons of cool factor and it's superior to two weapon fighting (unless you already have Dual Wielder... but then you'd probably be using 2 longswords). Revenant Blade gives you +1 AC and makes the weapon have the finesse property, letting you use it to Sneak Attack and use your Dex modifier. Furthermore, being a two-handed weapon, it would also more easily let you use some spells like Shield which require a free hand to cast. RAW, if you don't have a free hand, you can't cast spells with somatic components unless you have the War Caster feat. Food for thought.
Anyway, if you continue going EK, you will get 2nd lvl spells in 3 levels and eventually 3rd lvl spells, 6 levels later. If you really want a specific spell/cantrip or two that you can't get from the Wizard spell list you already have access to (cough cough, hex and eldritch blast), I'd just grab the magic initiate feat and pick those up.
Alternatively, you may want to look into the feats Shadow Touched or Fey Touched to provide you with some additional utility pells.
Fey Touched is clearly the superior mechanical choice though, offering you the amazing misty step along with your choice in an amazing list. Notable save-less options if your int is low are Hex, Hunter's Mark, Bless, Gift of Alacrity, Heroism, etc. Some of these do require concentration though but if you were already planning on getting Resilient: Con and/or War Caster at some point (if you haven't already) and you have decent Con, it shouldn't be a problem.
Shadow Touched gives you invisibility which is neat and your choice in a handful of spells but it only has 8 to choose from compared to Fey Touched's 19 and the options are a bit lack luster. WotC really dropped the ball on that one. Regardless, notable options would be Disguise Self, False Life and Silent Image.
The neat thing about these two feats though are that one, they are half feats letting you bring up any mental stat by +1 and they both let you cast both spells you pick up once/long rest without expanding a spell slot but you can still choose to do so if you want to use it again.
This artificially "boosts" the slots you get without needing to multiclass further as well as bringing up a stat and being a great roleplay opportunity.
Again, you do what is fun for you but from an optimizing perspective on your current build and party set up, bringing EK up to 13 and then continuing on your Rogue up to 7 afterwards is probably the best choice. Hopefully some things in all this helps! Trying to provide you with as many options as possible so you can build what is most fun for you!
Halfling. He's got Dex 20, so his AC is 19 with Dual Wielder and Mage Armor, and he doesn't have disadvantage on Stealth. He's still a Rogue, after all.
Ah ok, so he already has Dual Wielder. Don't know if you're simply using Shortswords for flavor then but you're not limited to Light weapons if you're using that. You still can't cast somatic spells without War Caster or dropping one of the swords though. Do you have other feats or just an ASI?
Regardless, you should really pick up the War Caster feat you can get from the ASI at Fighter 6 if you don't already have it. Don't know if your DM has just not been paying attention or home-ruled it but otherwise, you've probably been playing the item drop/pick-up dance between rounds to be able to cast important reaction spells like Shield or Absorb Elements, thus reducing your AC and opening yourself up to an enemy kicking your weapon away. Picking up War Caster will probably nudge you into using some concentration spells a bit more often too since it lets you have advantage on concentration saves which will definitely be good for you.
He's a halfling, so he uses two shortswords. Dual Wielder (freebie feat from the DM), Squat Nimbleness, and the DM lets him use his shortsword as an Arcane Focus. Dual Wielder would let him draw both swords anyway. He used an ASI to get to Dex 20.
He also traded Medium Armor and Shield Proficiency for Arcana Proficiency.
Ok, its cool that your DM is lenient and lets you get away with that. Two things though:
1. You can still use longswords as a halfling in 5e. The only drawback to being a small race is that you get disadvantage for using heavy weapons. Heavy weapons are Greatswords, greataxes and other big two-handed weapons. Longswords and all other one-handed non-heavy weapons are RAW-legal. I don't know if this is another home-rule or not though. Just wanted to point it out in case you wanted to upgrade your d6s to d8s. Not a HUGE upgrade but still noticeable.
2. Even with the DM letting you use the sword as an arcane focus, I'd still recommend the War Caster feat for the other two bullet points, namely advantage on concentration checks and secondly, to enable you to put the hurt into any enemy that dares try and get away from you once you're in melee range. Instead of getting a regular OA, you'll get to use a spell, most tanks who do this (myself included) usually use the Booming Blade cantrip effectively giving your OA a free damage boost while still letting you apply your Sneak Attack to it if applicable. This also makes you more "sticky" since if you hit with that OA, enemies will have to choose to either keep moving out of range, eating Booming Blade's rider effect or stay put, making you a better tank and more effectively protecting your party.
In War Caster's case, I'd mostly consider being able to cast with your hands full a bonus really, the other two bullet points are just that good.
I'm considering Metamagic Adept, which would give him Subtle Spell and either Extended or Distant. No verbal or somatic components.
He's still using shortswords for pretty much the same reason that the DM is letting him use a sword as a focus: It works thematically for the character. It would be a little odd for a halfling to use big-person weapons. That's a limitation he's willing to take.
It's a fun roleplay. He kind-of has a little bit of a Napoleon complex. He's taken the optimism and lucky aspect of halflings to another level, and throws himself out there, expecting to prevail. He's still the best melee character in the party and has the most hit points and best AC (if he can cast Mage Armor). He's the relative tank in a decidedly non-tanky party.
He doesn't have Booming Blade because that didn't work well with Two weapon Fighting, but if he can get WarCaster, I might have to figure a way to get it.
Subtle is great, between Extended and Distant, Extended is probably better for you. Distant usually doesn't see much use already on a full caster, even less so on an EK. Doubling the duration of your self buffs like Mage Armor will go a long way into saving your spell slots.
Makes sense, kudos to you. Sounds like a fun character. Other options that lend themselves well to a "lucky" halfling character are the racial feats Bountiful Luck and Second Chance along with the staple Lucky feat.
For Booming Blade, you do have a total of 5 cantrips right now, correct? Mage Hand + 2 more from AT and 2 from EK? Don't know what you picked already but you will get a 3rd cantrip at EK 10. Maybe a bit late though depending on what feats you wanted to grab. If you do go the War Caster + BB route, maybe you can convince your DM to switch out one of your lesser-used cantrips for BB at an ASI? Tasha has optional rules to let most classes with cantrips do this one way or another. Wizards can do it after a long rest, Artificers at every level up. Warlocks, Druids, Clerics and Sorcerers can do it when they gain an ASI. It feels weird to me that they purposefully left out AT and EK.
I actually started with BB, but realized that RAW, you can’t use it and get a Bonus Action attack, nor can you use it along with Extra Attack.Therefore, it’s really only useful if I get Warcaster. The DM is really easy going, and let me swap it out on an ASI. He’d probably let me do it again, maybe with a little head shaking. My cantrips are Firebolt, Mage Hand, Mending, Minor Illusion and Prestidigitation. If I get a magic shortbow, I could drop Firebolt. we seem to be fighting a lot of creatures with resistance to non-magical weapons.
Technically, once you hit level 7 EK, you CAN use it and get a bonus action attack but you could do that even if you're fighting with only one weapon and you'd have to balance between getting off 2 regular attacks on your mainhand and a bonus action attack on your offhand vs using BB on your mainhand and then getting a bonus action attack on your mainhand again. This effectively renders your second weapon a bit "useless" for a couple of levels here. I say useless but it's just that you deal less damage when using pure weapon attacks due to War Magic being amazing and you using d6s over d8s. It is still plenty flavorful though and once you pick up the Fighter's second extra attack, you'll make up that lost ground. Here is some math to illustrate my point:
CL 11 (Presumably EK 7/AT 4)
CL 15 (Presumably, EK 11/AT 4) - Here you'd make up the lost DPR if/when you reach EK 11 to get your 3rd extra attack:
CL 17 (Presumably, EK 13/AT 4 or EK 11/AT 6, doesn't make a difference either way) - Here, BB + War Magic again becomes stronger but not enough to completely make up for the DPR on 4 attacks without the rider effect but it is much closer:
As you can see, once you reach EK 7, using Booming Blade + one attack is strictly better then using 3 attacks with TWF/dual wielder. However, that changes once you reach EK 11 and get another attack, effectively letting you make 4 attacks with TWF/dual wielder. At that point, you'd be able to pick and choose between "do I deal more damage to get rid of this enemy more quickly?" and "This thing is strong, I don't want it to go anywhere so I'll use Booming Blade". The latter option is especially tempting if you have two enemies that you need to lockdown since you can only use one reaction. This will make your character more versatile, fitting in with your concept while still being mechanically sound. You will get a few "down levels" where TWF+dual wielder is consistently a worse choice for a minimum of 4 levels though from EK 7 to EK 11.
Obviously, this math assumes you're NOT using a magic weapon, adding any +s to each attack you make will skew your avg DPR in favor of using multiple attacks without BB but BB remains a valuable control choice and an even better one with the War Caster feat.
A reminder for all of us (yes me too) giving advice and theory crafting other folk’s characters. We need to start where they are not where they hope to be. Talking about what it will be like when a L8 character is L11 as a starting point is sort of getting ahead of oneself.it’s nice to see the calls and helpful when, but first he has to get there. As a L8 character he has accumulated a bit over 34k EXP, to get to L11 he needs @50k MORE EXP. he ain’t getting there in the next 3-5 gaming sessions so let’s theory craft from where he is now.
Let me ask the OP- how did you get to 4/4, did you alternate classes or work on one then the other? How you get to 7/7 matters at least somewhat in all our advice.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
A good way to get spell slots (if your casting stat is odd) is Fey Touched. It's functionally like getting an additional 1st and 2nd level spell slot, and two more known spells. No sacrifice in class levels.
A fair point, I tend to get ahead of myself because I LOVE theorycrafting and number-crunching in general. I still think that knowing what lies ahead can impact the decision he makes going forward whether that is to first go EK 5-7 or up to 11 before bringing up any AT levels at all or to do both one after another. As I keep stating with every post, this is HIS character and HIS fun. He can play it as he wants, all I want to do is point out possible options which fit both mechanically and thematically based on what we know so he can pick and choose what he wants.
We all do, and yes theory crafting is fun and it can inform what you might want to do. It is however definitely metagaming too. I try, at least occasionally, to simply look at the next levels and the options and what would most benefit the adventuring character right now. So- going into level 9 from AT4/EK4
option 1: AT 5 - 5+con bonus HP, +1d6 sneak attack damage, uncanny dodge (reaction to halve damage from 1 hit each round), no change to casting
option 2: EK 5 - 6+con bonus HP, 2 attacks with attack action (3 attacks with dual wielding bonus action) , no change to casting
option 3: Wizard 1 - 4+con bonus HP, ritual spell casting, +3 cantrips, +6 L1 spells, +3 spell slots including 2 L2 for upcasting
Each has its benefits and choosing one means you have to wait at least 1 level for the others.
Given that you are more tank and less spellcaster or rogue apparently I recommend option 2. Then you get the level 10 choice:
options 1&3 are the same
option 2 becomes: EK 6 - 6+con bonus HP, ASI/Feat, casting gains 3 slots (1L1 & 2L2) (and next level could get you war magic (cantrip + bonus action attack) )
To my mind this is a harder choice options 1 & 2 are pretty close - depending on just how important to you the spell slots are will probably determine which you take. If they aren’t that important I just might go with option 1 - uncanny dodge is going to make you much more survivable especially if your not able to improve your AC via magic items.
this is a very different sort of theory crafting to what we normally do but often much more helpful.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I started with Rogue One, then alternated between F and R. I didn’t really look at what the benefits were too much. It just seemed to make sense that since he was both the scout and the melee guy, he’d go up evenly in both. I do think I took EK3 before AT3. That got me Find Familiar, Mage Armor and Shield, and I ditched my leather. My current melee weapons are a +2 shortsword, +2 dagger and +1 shortsword. He just got the +1 short sword. He needs to identify and has to attune to it, so hopefully it has some nifty features. He’s expert in Stealth and Perception. His reaction spells are Shield, Absorb Elements and Feather Fall. Uncanny Dodge and an extra sneak attack die would be nice, but the Extra Attack would be more impactful. Getting W1 would be fun and give him more slots and more versatility. After reading everyone’s comments, I’m leaning toward focusing on EK for a while. Extra Attack, ASI and War Magic/2nd level spells are tempting. That would allow me to take Darkness, and I could take the Devil’s Sight Invocation. Lots of options.