My party has gotten themselves into a bit a situation and I don't think they realize how bad it's getting. Some context.
One of my PCs backstory involves his family being killed by orcs; how original. Well into the campaign they've discovered the whereabouts of the orcs encampment. They verbalized their desire for having a stealth mission and assassinating the orc leader. They were so excited, I built the encampment, and the subsequent cave system with that in mind, even had a couple different scenarios in mind for if they got caught.
It was all going great. They were rolling very well on their stealth checks, sneaking through the camp, and making their way towards their objective. Then it took a very quick turn.
One of the PCs suggests that instead of sneaking into the cave, they start burning down buildings outside. I did my best to narrate how many orcs we're in these buildings, and how many smaller huts surrounded said building, and how starting a fire at the door, won't just kill all the orcs, just make them hop out the windows. The fires begin.
As the orcs worked on the fires, the elderly and children are ushered into the cave system for safety. The party, who is able to cloak and disguise themselves, uses the panic to sneak into the cave with the crowd. They quickly find themselves in a large cavernous room with the other orc civilians, and a few guards. They decide the best course of action is to attack those few guards while they're still distracted, then they decided to take out a few of the civilians. We ended as a very large orc entered the room.
They now find themselves in a large room, with at least two dozen orc civilians, with many guards now alerted to their presence, soon to be all of them.
Has anyone ever had a situation like this? Where a party is very much trapped in a very bad situation, I feel like the cornered, and I'm struggling to think of a way that they can get out, that makes sense. I've always told my party that death is a real possibility in my world, but I usually give them situations where if they are overwhelmed they have an opportunity to escape. I'm seeing very little opportunities to escape here.
Although strange, I believe it would be reasonable to give them a chance to parley in exchange of money or some items to avoid their unavoidable death.
It does seem unavoidable at this point doesn't it? They have killed two civilians at this point. Which is the part I think is less forgivable. If they had just killed a couple of guards, I might have been able to pass it off easier as a,"they were weak" kind of thing.
It's going to have to be quite the deal for the work to let them walk out of there. I'll probably throw them in some kind of fighting pit at the very least. But they decided to try to fight their way out of it, they're probably done for.
You could always orchestrate the fight so they get a chance to run for it, once they realize they are in trouble. Could lead to a harrowing chase with some skill challenges to get away. But in the end, if they fight, then get a chance to escape, and still decide to fight, then follow through to its natural conclusion
No win scenarios can be used to create a more dynamic story. This could end up in the party being captured and then given a chance to orchistrate a daring escape. Maybe they lose some of their equipment as a punishment and now that special sword is being used by the Orc captian. They have to steal it from him or kill him to get it back.
Fireball. If fireball doesn’t fix the situation then you haven’t fireballed enough. There are dozens of ways out of the situation from teleportation abilities like dimension door, misty step etc, through invisibility, darkness and silence, flight, levitation, sleep, hypnotic pattern, enthrall, more fireballs, extreme violence. The list goes on. You haven’t said anything about what the party is made up of or their levels etc. It’s impossible to advise you without knowing.
While it is true, knowing more about their party would be helpful, level seems pretty obvious. They are stealthing rather than using invisibility or Seeming, and going up against Orcs. This makes it pretty clear they are at between 2nd and 6th level, probably 3rd or 4th. Mentioning any 4th level or higher spell seems not worth it.
Do the orcs have any other enemies? If so, now might be a good time for them to show up and change the dynamic. Or if the party has friends In the area, they might be drawn by the firs and come investigate, and help even the odds. Or just let the TPK happen, sounds like the party already missed several obvious exit ramps…
Have the orcs do non-lethal final blows, then enslave them when/if the party is knocked out. The party can then figure out how to escape the orcs and maybe get back some of their equipment. The orc chief should keep a few choice items and gold so they come out well behind and a bit chastened.
I was chatting with another D&D player at work today, he also suggested the non-lethal stuff. Beating him up, taking their items, and having them sit in some kind of jail cell awaiting some kind of punishment and having that be an instance where they might be able to escape.
I just have to try to get them there. I think there's a high possibility that in the next session as soon as we start they're going to try to fight their way out, and they're really isn't a way to do that. I suppose the dice could always be in their favor heavily and give all the enemies natural ones and all them natural twenties constantly, but there's so many more enemies right now in the area than the three of them. The enemy is quickly becoming very aware of their presence.
When combat starts have some of the guards corral the civilians off to the side so that there are very few with the large orc between them and the exit.They did take the time to get the civilians into the cave to protect them from the fires so they would probably try to protect them here as well
Maybe then the party can fight their way past the few guards and boss and try to lose them in the confusion outside (I assume not enough time has passed that all the fires are out, or the winds made the fires spread).
One of my PCs backstory involves his family being killed by orcs; how original. Well into the campaign they've discovered the whereabouts of the orcs encampment.
I think you should take a step back here, while you have a chance, and figure out where you want this part of the story to go from here
If these are the actual band of orcs that killed the family of a PC, then it makes sense that the character in question would be in vengeance mode, and likely talking their friends into going along with it (which I'm assuming is how they wound up deciding to burn it all down rather than continue on with the assassination plan). Offering them escape routes isn't going to help if the party has no interest in escaping
If that's the case, you're going to need to give them a win before they'll be content with retreating. Maybe that's the big orc you mentioned; if they were the chief that led the raid and killed the PC's family, then maybe taking him out and recovering some trophy he had that belonged to the character's mother or father or something will be enough
Of course, there are other options. Maybe you could drop some clues that 'orcs killed my family' isn't actually what happened, or that there was something else going on below the surface beyond a simple orcish raid. A revelation that maybe the story they thought they knew isn't the whole story is another good way to get a player to snap out of vengeance mode and think about escape, so they can go figure out the truth
Another option might be having the party find some prisoners in the caves. Now it isn't just their lives on the line, but innocents who need to be rescued, which could also work to shift their motivations -- although parties do have a habit of turning anything into a justification for wiping out their enemies if they've decided that's what they want to do
Basically, you need to understand how the scenario got to this point if you're going to find a satisfying conclusion for the party. A party of sixth-level characters likely isn't going to blink if you just say "no seriously, there are way too many orcs for you to handle, trust me", because hey, they're only orcs
You need to give them something else to think about other than Winning the Battle and Avenging My Family, or at least give them an excuse to think they're accomplished the latter so they no longer need to do the former
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I've been going through the prison idea with a bunch of different scenarios. One idea I had was to have the orc leader who killed his family there, but it has been while since that event. The orc leader could have gotten older and overthrown. But in this tribes customs, their former leader deserves a warriors death and will live out his days in the fighting pit until he is slain.
He could easily being held in a cage somewhere, but I'm not sure how to make it any kind of note worthy fight. Maybe it doesn't have to be. A simple prison shanking can do the trick; but he's a big dude. Not sure if a random piece of metal will do the trick.
I'm against any idea about capturing the PCs. This is a common go-to for DMs who don't want their party to die, but the PCs here have burned down houses, killed the orcs and then killed some civilian non-combatants to boot. They are playing as murder-hobos essentially. Assuming that the orcs are being played as low intelligence, aggressive and hostile, they are not going to try to knock everyone out or stick them in a convoluted lazar-shark cage trap and then look the other way. They're just going to kill them.
You built the world; the players get to act in the world. If you change things now - e.g. put in a secret tunnel exit - then the players' choices didn't matter, and they are escaping through Plot Armour.
The PCs need to fight their way out, come up with a clever ruse, or otherwise use their own resources - within the scenario and context you provided - to get out. Maybe they can fight their way out? Maybe they can disguise themselves as orcs. Whatever method they use, they chose to put themselves into this situation and you should respect that.
Sometimes games end in a TPK. If the players do reckless things, then that's what has to happen. Roll up new characters starting at level 5, and let them join the storyline somewhere else. Maybe even start with the orcs delivering the bodies of the fools that thought to take on an entire tribe by themselves.
If you really don't want these characters to die, then just put in a secret passage and let them escape. If you decide they aren't going to die, then you can change whatever you like.
I'm against any idea about capturing the PCs. This is a common go-to for DMs who don't want their party to die, but the PCs here have burned down houses, killed the orcs and then killed some civilian non-combatants to boot. They are playing as murder-hobos essentially. Assuming that the orcs are being played as low intelligence, aggressive and hostile, they are not going to try to knock everyone out or stick them in a convoluted lazar-shark cage trap and then look the other way. They're just going to kill them.
You built the world; the players get to act in the world. If you change things now - e.g. put in a secret tunnel exit - then the players' choices didn't matter, and they are escaping through Plot Armour.
The PCs need to fight their way out, come up with a clever ruse, or otherwise use their own resources - within the scenario and context you provided - to get out. Maybe they can fight their way out? Maybe they can disguise themselves as orcs. Whatever method they use, they chose to put themselves into this situation and you should respect that.
Sometimes games end in a TPK. If the players do reckless things, then that's what has to happen. Roll up new characters starting at level 5, and let them join the storyline somewhere else. Maybe even start with the orcs delivering the bodies of the fools that thought to take on an entire tribe by themselves.
If you really don't want these characters to die, then just put in a secret passage and let them escape. If you decide they aren't going to die, then you can change whatever you like.
This is my take as well. The game flows something like this:
1) The DM establishes the world.
2) The PCs react to the world.
3) The world reacts to the PCs.
4) Repeat 2 and 3.
Now, in the context of this situation:
1) The orcs have been established as being violent and aggressive and have murdered a PC's family.
2) The PCs reacted to the orcs by attempting an assassination mission, and have set fires and threatened the orc civilians.
3) The orcs reacted to the PCs by ushering the civilians to safety, establishing that they care about their own people.
2) The PCs reacted to the orcs by slipping into the cave and killing guards as well as some of the civilians that were being protected.
3) Now the ball is in the orcs' court to react to the PCs in a way that's consistent with how they've been established in the world. What would a group of violent, aggressive, murderous orcs do with the people who have invaded their camp, destroyed their buildings, and murdered their guards and civilians?
The PCs made this bed, now they either get to lie in it or find a way out.
I agree with that the characters have acted as murder hobos quite a bit and I disgaree that they "need" a "win" before being happy to leave. First of all, lots of vengeance stories start out with the avenger not being strong or experience enough to defeat their nemesis, getting their asses kicked and then having to grow strong before being able to finally achieving their goals.
That said, I don't think you should pull any punches. IF you decide to have them captured, be sure to have the orc chieftain describe to them that it is so that they will have to pay for their crimes (perhaps through slavery, torture, starvation, humiliation and/or a combination of the above).
In either case they probably need to have their alignments adjusted a bit.
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My party has gotten themselves into a bit a situation and I don't think they realize how bad it's getting. Some context.
One of my PCs backstory involves his family being killed by orcs; how original. Well into the campaign they've discovered the whereabouts of the orcs encampment. They verbalized their desire for having a stealth mission and assassinating the orc leader. They were so excited, I built the encampment, and the subsequent cave system with that in mind, even had a couple different scenarios in mind for if they got caught.
It was all going great. They were rolling very well on their stealth checks, sneaking through the camp, and making their way towards their objective. Then it took a very quick turn.
One of the PCs suggests that instead of sneaking into the cave, they start burning down buildings outside. I did my best to narrate how many orcs we're in these buildings, and how many smaller huts surrounded said building, and how starting a fire at the door, won't just kill all the orcs, just make them hop out the windows. The fires begin.
As the orcs worked on the fires, the elderly and children are ushered into the cave system for safety. The party, who is able to cloak and disguise themselves, uses the panic to sneak into the cave with the crowd. They quickly find themselves in a large cavernous room with the other orc civilians, and a few guards. They decide the best course of action is to attack those few guards while they're still distracted, then they decided to take out a few of the civilians. We ended as a very large orc entered the room.
They now find themselves in a large room, with at least two dozen orc civilians, with many guards now alerted to their presence, soon to be all of them.
Has anyone ever had a situation like this? Where a party is very much trapped in a very bad situation, I feel like the cornered, and I'm struggling to think of a way that they can get out, that makes sense. I've always told my party that death is a real possibility in my world, but I usually give them situations where if they are overwhelmed they have an opportunity to escape. I'm seeing very little opportunities to escape here.
Any thoughts?
Go with the situation as it is. See what they come up with, they may surprise you. And if they don’t, they definitely earned that TPK.
Professional computer geek
Although strange, I believe it would be reasonable to give them a chance to parley in exchange of money or some items to avoid their unavoidable death.
It does seem unavoidable at this point doesn't it? They have killed two civilians at this point. Which is the part I think is less forgivable. If they had just killed a couple of guards, I might have been able to pass it off easier as a,"they were weak" kind of thing.
It's going to have to be quite the deal for the work to let them walk out of there. I'll probably throw them in some kind of fighting pit at the very least. But they decided to try to fight their way out of it, they're probably done for.
You could always orchestrate the fight so they get a chance to run for it, once they realize they are in trouble. Could lead to a harrowing chase with some skill challenges to get away. But in the end, if they fight, then get a chance to escape, and still decide to fight, then follow through to its natural conclusion
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
No win scenarios can be used to create a more dynamic story. This could end up in the party being captured and then given a chance to orchistrate a daring escape. Maybe they lose some of their equipment as a punishment and now that special sword is being used by the Orc captian. They have to steal it from him or kill him to get it back.
Have a Challenge to Single Combat (hopefully done by the party). Stakes, if they win, they leave alive. If they lose, they live as slaves.
Fireball. If fireball doesn’t fix the situation then you haven’t fireballed enough. There are dozens of ways out of the situation from teleportation abilities like dimension door, misty step etc, through invisibility, darkness and silence, flight, levitation, sleep, hypnotic pattern, enthrall, more fireballs, extreme violence. The list goes on. You haven’t said anything about what the party is made up of or their levels etc. It’s impossible to advise you without knowing.
While it is true, knowing more about their party would be helpful, level seems pretty obvious. They are stealthing rather than using invisibility or Seeming, and going up against Orcs. This makes it pretty clear they are at between 2nd and 6th level, probably 3rd or 4th. Mentioning any 4th level or higher spell seems not worth it.
Do the orcs have any other enemies? If so, now might be a good time for them to show up and change the dynamic. Or if the party has friends In the area, they might be drawn by the firs and come investigate, and help even the odds. Or just let the TPK happen, sounds like the party already missed several obvious exit ramps…
Have the orcs do non-lethal final blows, then enslave them when/if the party is knocked out. The party can then figure out how to escape the orcs and maybe get back some of their equipment. The orc chief should keep a few choice items and gold so they come out well behind and a bit chastened.
That's a fair point.
They are all level 6. The party consists of A half or barbarian, a changeling rogue, and a gnome artificer.
I was chatting with another D&D player at work today, he also suggested the non-lethal stuff. Beating him up, taking their items, and having them sit in some kind of jail cell awaiting some kind of punishment and having that be an instance where they might be able to escape.
I just have to try to get them there. I think there's a high possibility that in the next session as soon as we start they're going to try to fight their way out, and they're really isn't a way to do that. I suppose the dice could always be in their favor heavily and give all the enemies natural ones and all them natural twenties constantly, but there's so many more enemies right now in the area than the three of them. The enemy is quickly becoming very aware of their presence.
When combat starts have some of the guards corral the civilians off to the side so that there are very few with the large orc between them and the exit.They did take the time to get the civilians into the cave to protect them from the fires so they would probably try to protect them here as well
Maybe then the party can fight their way past the few guards and boss and try to lose them in the confusion outside (I assume not enough time has passed that all the fires are out, or the winds made the fires spread).
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
I think you should take a step back here, while you have a chance, and figure out where you want this part of the story to go from here
If these are the actual band of orcs that killed the family of a PC, then it makes sense that the character in question would be in vengeance mode, and likely talking their friends into going along with it (which I'm assuming is how they wound up deciding to burn it all down rather than continue on with the assassination plan). Offering them escape routes isn't going to help if the party has no interest in escaping
If that's the case, you're going to need to give them a win before they'll be content with retreating. Maybe that's the big orc you mentioned; if they were the chief that led the raid and killed the PC's family, then maybe taking him out and recovering some trophy he had that belonged to the character's mother or father or something will be enough
Of course, there are other options. Maybe you could drop some clues that 'orcs killed my family' isn't actually what happened, or that there was something else going on below the surface beyond a simple orcish raid. A revelation that maybe the story they thought they knew isn't the whole story is another good way to get a player to snap out of vengeance mode and think about escape, so they can go figure out the truth
Another option might be having the party find some prisoners in the caves. Now it isn't just their lives on the line, but innocents who need to be rescued, which could also work to shift their motivations -- although parties do have a habit of turning anything into a justification for wiping out their enemies if they've decided that's what they want to do
Basically, you need to understand how the scenario got to this point if you're going to find a satisfying conclusion for the party. A party of sixth-level characters likely isn't going to blink if you just say "no seriously, there are way too many orcs for you to handle, trust me", because hey, they're only orcs
You need to give them something else to think about other than Winning the Battle and Avenging My Family, or at least give them an excuse to think they're accomplished the latter so they no longer need to do the former
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I've been going through the prison idea with a bunch of different scenarios. One idea I had was to have the orc leader who killed his family there, but it has been while since that event. The orc leader could have gotten older and overthrown. But in this tribes customs, their former leader deserves a warriors death and will live out his days in the fighting pit until he is slain.
He could easily being held in a cage somewhere, but I'm not sure how to make it any kind of note worthy fight. Maybe it doesn't have to be. A simple prison shanking can do the trick; but he's a big dude. Not sure if a random piece of metal will do the trick.
I'm against any idea about capturing the PCs. This is a common go-to for DMs who don't want their party to die, but the PCs here have burned down houses, killed the orcs and then killed some civilian non-combatants to boot. They are playing as murder-hobos essentially. Assuming that the orcs are being played as low intelligence, aggressive and hostile, they are not going to try to knock everyone out or stick them in a convoluted lazar-shark cage trap and then look the other way. They're just going to kill them.
You built the world; the players get to act in the world. If you change things now - e.g. put in a secret tunnel exit - then the players' choices didn't matter, and they are escaping through Plot Armour.
The PCs need to fight their way out, come up with a clever ruse, or otherwise use their own resources - within the scenario and context you provided - to get out. Maybe they can fight their way out? Maybe they can disguise themselves as orcs. Whatever method they use, they chose to put themselves into this situation and you should respect that.
Sometimes games end in a TPK. If the players do reckless things, then that's what has to happen. Roll up new characters starting at level 5, and let them join the storyline somewhere else. Maybe even start with the orcs delivering the bodies of the fools that thought to take on an entire tribe by themselves.
If you really don't want these characters to die, then just put in a secret passage and let them escape. If you decide they aren't going to die, then you can change whatever you like.
This is my take as well. The game flows something like this:
1) The DM establishes the world.
2) The PCs react to the world.
3) The world reacts to the PCs.
4) Repeat 2 and 3.
Now, in the context of this situation:
1) The orcs have been established as being violent and aggressive and have murdered a PC's family.
2) The PCs reacted to the orcs by attempting an assassination mission, and have set fires and threatened the orc civilians.
3) The orcs reacted to the PCs by ushering the civilians to safety, establishing that they care about their own people.
2) The PCs reacted to the orcs by slipping into the cave and killing guards as well as some of the civilians that were being protected.
3) Now the ball is in the orcs' court to react to the PCs in a way that's consistent with how they've been established in the world. What would a group of violent, aggressive, murderous orcs do with the people who have invaded their camp, destroyed their buildings, and murdered their guards and civilians?
The PCs made this bed, now they either get to lie in it or find a way out.
I agree with that the characters have acted as murder hobos quite a bit and I disgaree that they "need" a "win" before being happy to leave. First of all, lots of vengeance stories start out with the avenger not being strong or experience enough to defeat their nemesis, getting their asses kicked and then having to grow strong before being able to finally achieving their goals.
That said, I don't think you should pull any punches. IF you decide to have them captured, be sure to have the orc chieftain describe to them that it is so that they will have to pay for their crimes (perhaps through slavery, torture, starvation, humiliation and/or a combination of the above).
In either case they probably need to have their alignments adjusted a bit.