Well actually my suggestion from rogue lvl9 was to replace the feat crossbow expert with shapshooter and the sneak attack.
But let's focus on your build. I would never make a multiclass of more than 3 levels in the secondary class. But if I did get that R4 F5, I would definitely go longbow and substitute crossbow expert for shapshooter. Rolling 3 dice, the -5 does not matter and you will add a fixed +10 to the damage. And between 1d8 and a 1d10, the difference is marginal. The big impact is on flat damage (or if you roll a lot more dice).
There's also one thing I think you're missing. If you're going to start with 5 levels in one class, and 4 in another, and work your way up to lvl20, you shouldn't overlook the impact that has on your progress. If your main is Rogue, you will get your sneak attack dice 5 levels later. Also, the rest of the rogue's features (which are generally fantastic) you will get 5 levels later. And considering you're AT, you're going to get your lvl2 spells at your lvl 12. And your lvl 3 at 18. If you're okay with that, that's fine. But you shouldn't think of build as static.
I agree that sharpshooter would be better if you want more damage when you hit with the +10 damage being a +9 by comparison on average with the weapon damage differences of d8 to d10, and a critical being a difference of a +8 due to weapon differences; however I would prefer the +2 to hit from Archery Fighting Style for accuracy with hitting more often which may be more overall damage, which would also be a +5 to hit compared to sharpshooter with multiclass or a +7 to hit by comparison to the all Rogue build. If you miss with an attack due to Sharpshooter, that is 10 to 17 damage at loss on average compared to the FR build per attack; however you may or may not make that up in the next two attacks since you are getting around +9 damage per attack on average by comparison if you hit. I also feel that a ranged weapon attacking within 5 feet is something that comes up way more often than long range; although this and the to hit % will be relevant depending on your DM and campaign with monster AC.
I feel that 5 levels of Fighter gives so much value. Level 1 is a +2 to hit with Archery Fighting Style and extra healing with Second Wind. Level 2 is a nuke option with Action Surge. Champion Fighter increases critical hits at level 3. Level 4 gives ASI or Feat, which I took Crossbow Expert in planning the next level and the bonus of the 5 foot to eliminate disadvantage at close range by keeping Sneak Attack. Level 5 gives Extra Attack which you can take with Crossbow Expert.
I agree that the all Rogue get Rogue stuff sooner, but the numbers don't seem to be an issue when you consider to hit %, average damage, average critical damage, average chance of landing a critical hit, and other features. By level 3, the FR build already has some defensive spell options such as Misty Step, Shield, Silver Barbs, and Absorb Elements; and while more would be awesome, it is good enough. I would say that a great to hit, good damage, good critical damage, excellent critical hit chance, little healing, nuke button option, some movement, and some defenses for a build is static necessary; however it is a martial focus build.
In my opinion, the best way to take advantage of these types of builds is with sharpshooter/Great Weapon master feat. Not so much for the crit itself, which doesn't double the +10, but to make your dps more consistent even without crit.
Regarding the class, obviously you will have more critical chance if you make more attacks. The problem is that you won't be able to do it with a crossbow (except with the Crossbow Expert feat, which is too many feats), so that champion better go with a longbow.
With the rogue you play it with a single roll, but if you play well you will add your sneak attack, which makes your crit much more effective.
Another build to do this is a hexblade with an improved pact weapon and Thirsting Blade. With Darkness or Shadow of moil you will attack with advantage every turn. The main problem with this build is someone counterspelling or dispel magic on you. But otherwise it works very well.
So my character concept feels good to me from what I am seeing on the numbers.
By level 9:
Eladrin Variant Elf for Heavy Crossbow proficiency with Origin Replacement Option.
Standard Array of 15 Dexterity then 17 Dexterity with racial bonus, and finally a 18 Dexterity with the half feat Elven Accuracy at level 4 Rouge ASI or feat bonus.
Eladring Variant Elf also gives Misty Step for retreating without moving, so you can still use Steady aim.
Rogue level 3 gives advantage with Steady aim, then Rogue level 4 with Elven Accuracy gives "extra advantage".
Rogue level 3 for subclass Arcane Trickster for spells such as Absorb Elements, Shield, and Silver Barbs; and eventually more Misty Step. More defenses if up close to an enemy and possible ways to get advantage with Silvery Barbs.
Fighter level 1 for Archery to increase hit chance with the already extra advantage.
Fighter level 2 for Action Surge.
Fighter level 3 for Champion giving critical hits on 19 and 20.
Fighter level 4 for the feat Crossbow Expert to no longer worry about disadvantage at close range but also Extra Attack potential.
Fighter level 5 for Extra Attack.
So critical hit chance per turn by going to level 9 in this way with the first 4 levels being Rogue then last 5 levels being Fighter is:
Level 1: 5%
Level 2: 5%
Level 3: 9.75% (Steady Aim)
Level 4: 14.27% (Steady Aim with Elven Accuracy)
Level 5: 14.27%
Level 6: 14.27% (Action Surge would be 18.55%)
Level 7: 21.7% (Champion Fighter to crit on 19 or 20 with Steady Aim with Elven Accuracy) (Action Surge would be 34.39%)
Level 8: 21.7% (Action Surge would be 34.39%)
Level 9: 34.39% (Champion Fighter to crit on 19 or 20 with Steady Aim with Elven Accuracy and Crossbow Expert combined with Extra Attack) (Action Surge would be 46.86%)
Correct math should be (in percents):
5
5
9.75 (Steady Aim)
14.26 (without rounding it's 14.2625, so dunno how you got to 14.27) (Steady Aim + EA)
14.26
14.26 (Action Surge gives an independent chance to crit, which means 18.55 for at least one crit, but more meaningfully speaking, average number of crits - expressed as a percentage so our numbers remain comparable - is now 19.26)
27.1 (did you transpose digits?) (Steady Aim + EA + Champion crit range); odds of at least one crit with Action Surge is 34.39 but total expected crits is 37.1
See row 7 assuming you don't use Crossbow Expert (which, agreed, you shouldn't - EA is better).
See row 7 for baseline numbers now (Steady Aimed shot + regular shot); Action Surge takes you to 46.86 of at least one crit and 0.571 total crits.
However, there are numerous ways to do significantly better than the above math by finding a source of advantage that outlasts 1 attack. Examples of this include Samurai and any of several ways to cast Darkness and see through it (Shadow Sorcerer, Warlock with Devil's Sight, Shadow Monk with a Fighter dip for Blind Fighting; you generally need Sorcerer levels to do this as a bonus action), and of course Gloom Stalkers are pretty infamous if you have access to regular old normal darkness. In fact, your build has a better way to do this than Steady Aim, since you're an Arcane Trickster; why are we ignoring your owl for our math?
Average damage by level 9 would be the following if we assume a hit on both attacks with Steady Aim on the first to trigger Elven Accuracy and Sneak Attack:
Assuming you hit defeats the purpose of crit-fishing.
26 damage on average at base = (Heavy Crossbow) 1d10 + 4 (Dexterity 18) + 2d6 (Sneak Attack) + 1d10 + 4
(A critical hit on the Sneak Attack would add 25 damage making an average attack at base being 51 damage instead, or an additional 11 damage if not with Sneak Attack being a total of 37 damage instead.)
No, a critical hit would add 18 damage with Sneak Attack.
45 damage on average with Action Surge = 4d10 + 16 + 2d6
Your math is getting steadily worse, because of Sneak Attack's 1/turn nature: as you make more attacks the odds of you having failed to deliver your Sneak Attack damage exponentially decreases, which in this case means diminishing returns on more attacks.
(A critical hit on the Sneak Attack would add 25 damage making an average attack at base being 70 damage instead, or an additional 11 damage if not with Sneak Attack being a total of 56 damage instead.)
Where are you getting 25 from?
You are correct with Sneak Attack. I messed up on the calculations in my second post and then corrected the numbers in my post right before yours. I actually don't know what happened with the numbers in my second post involving Sneak Attack.
For my critical hits, it is the critical hit chance of getting 1 crit per turn at least with the conditions described.
Correct on level 4: Steady Aim with Elven Accuracy is 14.26% instead of 14.27%. I switched to using a different online calculator that was rounding.
I think I'm Correct on level 6: For Steady Aim with Elven Accuracy and then Action Surge, the formula I used for a crit chance for the turn was: 1 - (0.95^4) = 18.54% (Rounding thing still happening for 18.55% in my second post.)
I think I'm Correct on level 7 & 8: 1 - (0.90^3) = 27.1% ; & for Action Surge: 1 - (0.90^4) = 34.39%
I think I'm Correct on level 9: 1 - (0.90^4) = 34.39% ; & for Action Surge: 1 - (0.90^5) = 46.86%
I picked Steady Aim as the go to for advantage since it is more likely a guarantee to get advantage, with its drawback being that you can't move; however misty step is the emergency button, since Crossbow Expert assists with this combination if necessary. Umbral Sight requires darkness and that your enemies don't have Devil Sight, Blind Sight, or True Sight. Devil Sight is similar. Yes, I think most encounters usually take place at night but not all of them. Umbral Sight can have issues if players just create light. Spells to create darkness can be counterspelled with counterspell or dispelled with Dispel Magic.
For the purpose of what I know how to calculate, I assume the attacks hit to get the average critical hit chance of all attacks hitting per turn. I'm good with a more in depth dive into the numbers, but I don't know how to do it.
Edit: Sorry, I forgot about Find Familiar with an owl. I'm good with taking this extra advantage as well as with Silvery Barbs occasionally; however Find Familiar can have some issues since it has its own initiative. Taking the Help Action applies to the next ally that hits the target, so you would have to take the Ready Action instead; however the Ready Action can't move and apply the Help Action in unison, so this puts your owl at risk by keeping it beside a target with a trigger that could fail.
Since you already have it so clear, I will not continue with the argument. You play what you want, of course. And as a build it is not bad if you want to have a better critical rate than anyone else.
What I am going to tell you is that Misty Step is lvl2, and you are going to get it at lvl 12. And I wouldn't count on using Shield, Silvery Barbs or any other level 1 spell very often. You would take much more advantage of your scarce spell slots in long duration spells. For example, find familiar, which can help you in those circumstances where you can't/want to use steady aim. As well as being a fantastic infiltrator. Another good lvl1 AT spell is Tasha's Hideous Laughter, which is also Enchantment and can last you a whole fight. Defensive spells like Silvery Barbs, while fantastic (and SB in particular my favorite lvl1 spell), are going to be testament to a build with so few spell slots for most of your career.
Since you already have it so clear, I will not continue with the argument. You play what you want, of course. And as a build it is not bad if you want to have a better critical rate than anyone else.
What I am going to tell you is that Misty Step is lvl2, and you are going to get it at lvl 12. And I wouldn't count on using Shield, Silvery Barbs or any other level 1 spell very often. You would take much more advantage of your scarce spell slots in long duration spells. For example, find familiar, which can help you in those circumstances where you can't/want to use steady aim. As well as being a fantastic infiltrator. Another good lvl1 AT spell is Tasha's Hideous Laughter, which is also Enchantment and can last you a whole fight. Defensive spells like Silvery Barbs, while fantastic (and SB in particular my favorite lvl1 spell), are going to be testament to a build with so few spell slots for most of your career.
No problem at all. Thank you for your feedback. You and others have assisted me with the math of the build as well as the direction.
I see this as a fun debate more than an argument, and this build would have a fun factor with critting so well while also having options and good numbers.
By level 1 with this build, I have the following spells: Misty Step once a long rest due to race & subrace and Shield with background for once per long rest.
By level 3 with this build, I have 3 additional spells with 2 spell slots: Silvery Barbs for sure and more slots for Shield.
By level 4 with this build, I gain an additional spell and spell slot; along with EA feat.
Shield, Silvery Barbs, and Misty Step are all emergency options if needed. Shield is all defense. Silvery Barbs is defense plus advantage. Misty Step is teleporting to keep Steady Aim up. Spells I gain later are extra, with Crossbow Expert at level 8 also allowing for close combat to keep Steady Aim up.
Arcane Trickster can't get Find Familiar until level 8, since it isn't illusion or enchantment. Find Familiar is good value for the team with scouting and advantage with owl; however the owl doesn't guarantee advantage to you specifically since it has its own initiative and the Help action doesn't grant advantage to a specific creature/player. Find Familiar is great, just not consistently reliable for advantage to this build specifically and instead the team in general. (If homebrewing that Find Familiar shares your initiative, that Help action can target specific creatures or players, or that the Ready Action allows for the familiar to take Help action as well as move; then I would agree.)
Since this build is a ranged weapon attacker and not melee, hopefully the limited defensive options of around 5 times per long rest will be enough; since most campaigns average two to three encounters per long rest, this should work well with tanks on the team for the front lines.
I'm no maths guru so I won't pretend to have any dispute with the numbers shared or how they are derived. I do know how the classes tend to operate in combat, though and I will say that Fighter and Rogue are both solid choices for steady, pretty reliable damage output in combat. Blending the pair, in whichever mix of levels you choose is likely still going to turn out a very viable character for you. On the build, I would suggest, myself, grabbing 6 in Fighter for the ASI, or feat if you prefer. After that I'd be full Rogue, picking up whatever skills and abilities were left with the final 10. You'll miss capstone, but 5 does that too, so who cares?
I like the Fighter/Rogue splits and personally, I like the Champion as a crit fisher. I understand that complex calculations may show it more likely to crit with other combinations, but flat ou throwing in one more number of the die to potentially double the dice on appeals to me.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Talk to your Players.Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
I'm no maths guru so I won't pretend to have any dispute with the numbers shared or how they are derived. I do know how the classes tend to operate in combat, though and I will say that Fighter and Rogue are both solid choices for steady, pretty reliable damage output in combat. Blending the pair, in whichever mix of levels you choose is likely still going to turn out a very viable character for you. On the build, I would suggest, myself, grabbing 6 in Fighter for the ASI, or feat if you prefer. After that I'd be full Rogue, picking up whatever skills and abilities were left with the final 10. You'll miss capstone, but 5 does that too, so who cares?
I like the Fighter/Rogue splits and personally, I like the Champion as a crit fisher. I understand that complex calculations may show it more likely to crit with other combinations, but flat ou throwing in one more number of the die to potentially double the dice on appeals to me.
So I originally thought about going 6 in Fighter also; however the extra 1d6 on Sneak attack seems more valuable for average damage and average critical damage. The build already maxes out DEX and gets a bunch of feats such as Eleven Accuracy, Crossbow Expert, and Piercer. It even has room for two more feats as is for something like Lucky; although the other would be a half feat depending on starting stats to max the Dex. I may be missing a good feat, but I think the extra 1d6 Sneak Attack may be better.
I like the Fighter/Rogue splits and personally, I like the Champion as a crit fisher. I understand that complex calculations may show it more likely to crit with other combinations, but flat ou throwing in one more number of the die to potentially double the dice on appeals to me.
Rogue/Fighter and Rogue/Ranger are among the best multi-level splits: almost every ability is useful to the other class, there aren't any major redundancies, and none have such strong high level features that you are crippling yourself by missing out (a problem with rogue/paladin).
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I agree that sharpshooter would be better if you want more damage when you hit with the +10 damage being a +9 by comparison on average with the weapon damage differences of d8 to d10, and a critical being a difference of a +8 due to weapon differences; however I would prefer the +2 to hit from Archery Fighting Style for accuracy with hitting more often which may be more overall damage, which would also be a +5 to hit compared to sharpshooter with multiclass or a +7 to hit by comparison to the all Rogue build. If you miss with an attack due to Sharpshooter, that is 10 to 17 damage at loss on average compared to the FR build per attack; however you may or may not make that up in the next two attacks since you are getting around +9 damage per attack on average by comparison if you hit. I also feel that a ranged weapon attacking within 5 feet is something that comes up way more often than long range; although this and the to hit % will be relevant depending on your DM and campaign with monster AC.
I feel that 5 levels of Fighter gives so much value. Level 1 is a +2 to hit with Archery Fighting Style and extra healing with Second Wind. Level 2 is a nuke option with Action Surge. Champion Fighter increases critical hits at level 3. Level 4 gives ASI or Feat, which I took Crossbow Expert in planning the next level and the bonus of the 5 foot to eliminate disadvantage at close range by keeping Sneak Attack. Level 5 gives Extra Attack which you can take with Crossbow Expert.
I agree that the all Rogue get Rogue stuff sooner, but the numbers don't seem to be an issue when you consider to hit %, average damage, average critical damage, average chance of landing a critical hit, and other features. By level 3, the FR build already has some defensive spell options such as Misty Step, Shield, Silver Barbs, and Absorb Elements; and while more would be awesome, it is good enough. I would say that a great to hit, good damage, good critical damage, excellent critical hit chance, little healing, nuke button option, some movement, and some defenses for a build is static necessary; however it is a martial focus build.
You are correct with Sneak Attack. I messed up on the calculations in my second post and then corrected the numbers in my post right before yours. I actually don't know what happened with the numbers in my second post involving Sneak Attack.
For my critical hits, it is the critical hit chance of getting 1 crit per turn at least with the conditions described.
Correct on level 4: Steady Aim with Elven Accuracy is 14.26% instead of 14.27%. I switched to using a different online calculator that was rounding.
I think I'm Correct on level 6: For Steady Aim with Elven Accuracy and then Action Surge, the formula I used for a crit chance for the turn was: 1 - (0.95^4) = 18.54% (Rounding thing still happening for 18.55% in my second post.)
I think I'm Correct on level 7 & 8: 1 - (0.90^3) = 27.1% ; & for Action Surge: 1 - (0.90^4) = 34.39%
I think I'm Correct on level 9: 1 - (0.90^4) = 34.39% ; & for Action Surge: 1 - (0.90^5) = 46.86%
I picked Steady Aim as the go to for advantage since it is more likely a guarantee to get advantage, with its drawback being that you can't move; however misty step is the emergency button, since Crossbow Expert assists with this combination if necessary. Umbral Sight requires darkness and that your enemies don't have Devil Sight, Blind Sight, or True Sight. Devil Sight is similar. Yes, I think most encounters usually take place at night but not all of them. Umbral Sight can have issues if players just create light. Spells to create darkness can be counterspelled with counterspell or dispelled with Dispel Magic.
For the purpose of what I know how to calculate, I assume the attacks hit to get the average critical hit chance of all attacks hitting per turn. I'm good with a more in depth dive into the numbers, but I don't know how to do it.
Edit: Sorry, I forgot about Find Familiar with an owl. I'm good with taking this extra advantage as well as with Silvery Barbs occasionally; however Find Familiar can have some issues since it has its own initiative. Taking the Help Action applies to the next ally that hits the target, so you would have to take the Ready Action instead; however the Ready Action can't move and apply the Help Action in unison, so this puts your owl at risk by keeping it beside a target with a trigger that could fail.
Since you already have it so clear, I will not continue with the argument. You play what you want, of course. And as a build it is not bad if you want to have a better critical rate than anyone else.
What I am going to tell you is that Misty Step is lvl2, and you are going to get it at lvl 12. And I wouldn't count on using Shield, Silvery Barbs or any other level 1 spell very often. You would take much more advantage of your scarce spell slots in long duration spells. For example, find familiar, which can help you in those circumstances where you can't/want to use steady aim. As well as being a fantastic infiltrator. Another good lvl1 AT spell is Tasha's Hideous Laughter, which is also Enchantment and can last you a whole fight. Defensive spells like Silvery Barbs, while fantastic (and SB in particular my favorite lvl1 spell), are going to be testament to a build with so few spell slots for most of your career.
No problem at all. Thank you for your feedback. You and others have assisted me with the math of the build as well as the direction.
I see this as a fun debate more than an argument, and this build would have a fun factor with critting so well while also having options and good numbers.
By level 1 with this build, I have the following spells: Misty Step once a long rest due to race & subrace and Shield with background for once per long rest.
By level 3 with this build, I have 3 additional spells with 2 spell slots: Silvery Barbs for sure and more slots for Shield.
By level 4 with this build, I gain an additional spell and spell slot; along with EA feat.
Shield, Silvery Barbs, and Misty Step are all emergency options if needed. Shield is all defense. Silvery Barbs is defense plus advantage. Misty Step is teleporting to keep Steady Aim up. Spells I gain later are extra, with Crossbow Expert at level 8 also allowing for close combat to keep Steady Aim up.
Arcane Trickster can't get Find Familiar until level 8, since it isn't illusion or enchantment. Find Familiar is good value for the team with scouting and advantage with owl; however the owl doesn't guarantee advantage to you specifically since it has its own initiative and the Help action doesn't grant advantage to a specific creature/player. Find Familiar is great, just not consistently reliable for advantage to this build specifically and instead the team in general. (If homebrewing that Find Familiar shares your initiative, that Help action can target specific creatures or players, or that the Ready Action allows for the familiar to take Help action as well as move; then I would agree.)
Since this build is a ranged weapon attacker and not melee, hopefully the limited defensive options of around 5 times per long rest will be enough; since most campaigns average two to three encounters per long rest, this should work well with tanks on the team for the front lines.
I'm no maths guru so I won't pretend to have any dispute with the numbers shared or how they are derived. I do know how the classes tend to operate in combat, though and I will say that Fighter and Rogue are both solid choices for steady, pretty reliable damage output in combat. Blending the pair, in whichever mix of levels you choose is likely still going to turn out a very viable character for you. On the build, I would suggest, myself, grabbing 6 in Fighter for the ASI, or feat if you prefer. After that I'd be full Rogue, picking up whatever skills and abilities were left with the final 10. You'll miss capstone, but 5 does that too, so who cares?
I like the Fighter/Rogue splits and personally, I like the Champion as a crit fisher. I understand that complex calculations may show it more likely to crit with other combinations, but flat ou throwing in one more number of the die to potentially double the dice on appeals to me.
Talk to your Players. Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
So I originally thought about going 6 in Fighter also; however the extra 1d6 on Sneak attack seems more valuable for average damage and average critical damage. The build already maxes out DEX and gets a bunch of feats such as Eleven Accuracy, Crossbow Expert, and Piercer. It even has room for two more feats as is for something like Lucky; although the other would be a half feat depending on starting stats to max the Dex. I may be missing a good feat, but I think the extra 1d6 Sneak Attack may be better.
Rogue/Fighter and Rogue/Ranger are among the best multi-level splits: almost every ability is useful to the other class, there aren't any major redundancies, and none have such strong high level features that you are crippling yourself by missing out (a problem with rogue/paladin).