I'm new to D&D overall, and like most people that discover the game, I've been making dozens of character sheets in an obsessive fugue. I wanted to make a character specifically dedicated to sneaking/scouting/infiltrating, and so I naturally started with the rogue. Looking at the class features though, I was pretty underwhelmed. The Rogue class has access to a lot of mechanically fantastic options, but nothing that directly contributes to sneaking. Some of the subclass options attempt to rectify this (notably Supreme Sneak from the Thief archetype), but not as much as I would expect from a class synonymous with stealth. Not to mention that it doesn't show up until 9th level.
Let's take a look at their options.
Both the Bard and the Rogue get early access to expertise in stealth. The Rogue gets it a little earlier, and with a slight numerical advantage if you build them both to their respective core stats. At the same level the Bard's expertise comes online, they get access to another essential stealth tool: invisibility. The Rogue has several ways to gain access to this spell, but none of them are quite as handy. The Shadow Touched feat allows a free daily use, but unless the Rogue is an Arcane Trickster, they don't have the spell slots to cast it again. Arcane Tricksters gain access to the spell on their own, but not until level 7, and they have precious few slots to use on it.
By the time the Arcane Trickster gains access to invisibility, a Lore Bard has already gotten one of the best class features in the game: Additional Magic Secrets. At level 6, the Bard can select two spells out of any spell in the game. At 6th level, these are limited spell levels of 3rd or lower. Because sneakiness is the quality I'm measuring here, I'm going to look at one spell in particular.
Pass Without Trace.
That's a flat +10 to stealth checks for a 2nd level slot, which the Bard now has three of. And that's not all! You also cannot be tracked without your enemies employing magic. No tracks or trace of your passage. A Bard built around Dex will have a +10 to stealth checks.
You'll argue that Rogues get a similar failsafe to pad their stealth, namely Reliable Talent. This guarantees a floor of 10 on your dice roll, which admittedly is nice.
But, if you're under the effects of Pass Without Trace... Your minimum stealth roll, at level 6, is 21. Average roll of 30.5. Max of 40.
At level 7, when Arcane Tricksters finally nab that Invisibility spell, Lore Bards get its beefy older cousin: Greater Invisibility.
On a side note, in terms of damage output, Rogues DO have access to Sneak Attack... But Lore Bards get Fireball.
I guess my question is this:
If the Rogue isn't the master of sneak, what are they? I'd love to hear your thoughts. Do you like Rogues for your sneaky characters? Do you prefer Bards? Something else entirely? If you do love the Rogue, why? Let me know!
Bards never get the option to Hide as a Bonus Action and Invisibility is not actually a substitute for Hiding. Even if you are invisible, you can still be detected. Yes, Bards can get just as good at Stealth as a Rogue, but it does come at some expense to their main ability of social skills and spells. Besides, sometimes one just wants to play a character who doesn't cast spells and the Bard is a full caster.
Rogues are still the master of Sneaking and Attacking and Sneak Attacking and Bards will never quite match that ability, but why would they want to? Bards are built to be good at other things, the two classes cover different, if adjacent, themes.
A Rogue's Cunning Action is pretty class defining and is something a Bard just cannot do. So what does a Rogue do? They are sneaky, they are slippery, they are fast, they are skillful. Bards are also skillful, but they also tend to lean more suave and charming and magical than rogues. These two classes only step on each other's toes when the players are not paying attention. When they do pay attention and decide to work together instead of against each other, these two classes will actually dance together beautifully!
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Good point! Cunning Action definitely shakes up the Rogue's action economy, though that may not matter outside of initiative. When sneaking or scouting, usually the goal is to avoid combat altogether - for the time being.
I do seem to recall that hiding can only be done when a creature can't see you clearly anyway, and I believe that an invisible creature can always attempt to hide, regardless of cover.
Something else to note, a Rogue's abilities are mostly resource free. A Bard can run out of spell slots and Bardic Inspiration, but a Rogue will never run out of Cunning Action or Sneak Attack.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Spell slots are limited, the bard cannot cast pass without trace every time stealth is required, whereas the rogue can go all day. Greater invisibility only lasts 1 minute which is fine for combat use but not getting in somewhere you shouldn’t. People often massively over estimate what you can realistically do in just 60 seconds, it’s not even long enough for me to go to the toilet, let alone scale a fence, run across a garden, climb a wall and get in through an open upstairs window.
When your only argument is that bards are better because they have magic that makes them just as good at some things for some of the time then you have already lost the discussion.
Rogues are also very SAD (single attribute dependent).
Hmmm dex for most of their skills and fighting. Con for hitpoints, wisdom for finding traps and hidden treasure, int to investigate how to get around traps and research marks, charisma to talk their way out of trouble or get passed guards, strength to be able to climb garden fences or up to the open window on the second floor. Rogues are for sure not SAD.
Rogues are also very SAD (single attribute dependent).
Hmmm dex for most of their skills and fighting. Con for hitpoints, wisdom for finding traps and hidden treasure, int to investigate how to get around traps and research marks, charisma to talk their way out of trouble or get passed guards, strength to be able to climb garden fences or up to the open window on the second floor. Rogues are for sure not SAD.
A good rogue has no need of high HP; expertise in Perception; cover the rest with proficiency or expertise per taste. I don't mean everything but Dex is a dump stat, but once a rogue has Dex 20 they don't need ASIs, and are better served by feats.
Rogues can be skill monkies, but they don't have to be. If someone else has high charisma, you don't have to have it too. Sure, it will be a problem at some point, but you can't eat the cake and leave it whole. Same goes for any other stat other than Dex. So Rogues can be MAD, but they don't have to be. They can also be SAD without being any worse.
Anyway, back to topic, by your logic a Ranger is even better than both, using Tasha's optional features. Expertise at level 1, Dex being a core stat for most, Pass Without Trace at level 5, as well as Silence which is also important for stealth sometimes. Hide in Plain Sight for situational +10 to stealth, or the optional Nature's Veil to become breifly invisible. Not amazing, but can help if you're running across an open hallway or something. Vanish at level 14 allows you to hide as a bonus action too, and makes you permanently untrackable by nonmagical means. Also, if you need to climb something, the optional features give you climbing speed, as well as boost your speed.
All that before subclasses. Gloom Stalker giving great spells for infiltration, as well as invisibility in the dark. Horizon Walker to just pass through walls. Fey Wanderer if you get caught to have a significant boost to your Charisma, if given a chance to use.
In addition to all that, better HP, better AC and generally better when in combat alone, if you're caught.
Sneak Attack - some of the best single-target damage in the game. It scales, AND it can be used every single turn. Casters will run out of spell slots, Rogues will never run out of Sneak Attack
Expertise - Pick what you want to be good at and be REALLY good at it. Does the party need a scout? A nerd? A face? You can be that guy.
Cunning Action - Being able to Dash, Disengage or Hide without sacrificing your Attack can be HUGE in combat.
Uncanny Dodge - Cut one attack per round in half? YES PLEASE.
Evasion - Even MORE damage avoidance. Go tell that Ancient Red Dragon where he can stick his fire breath.
Reliable Talent - Be at least average at pretty much everything, and just about foolproof on the stuff you're actually good at
Blindsense - What do we say to the enemy's sneak? "Not today"
Slippery Mind - This plus the Resilient(Constitution) feat and you have all three major saving throws covered. That's AWESOME.
Elusive - Go ahead, flank me. It won't help.
Stroke Of Luck - When you're going for that epic finishing blow on the BBEG and roll poorly? Never mind, you hit anyway.
A goblin bard with proficiency in thieves tools can easily be a rogue-equivalent. But any other race will likely miss the ability to hide/disengage as a bonus action.
Rogues can get themselves out of a bad situation easier than Bards can. Like, if they screw up their Stealth. And they can use their sneakiness during combat, where Bards really struggle to do so.
It seems like I was doing Rogues a disservice by measuring them only on the ability to go unseen. I wanted my character to be the best at remaining stealthy out of combat, and assumed that was the Rogue's main toolkit.
When your only argument is that bards are better because they have magic that makes them just as good at some things for some of the time then you have already lost the discussion.
My thought here was that, by level 3, Bards and Rogues could have the same stealth capabilities outside of initiative: +7 to sneak with expertise. At that point, having magic doesn't make them "just as good" as the Rogue at sneaking, it actually puts them ahead.
Anyway, back to topic, by your logic a Ranger is even better than both, using Tasha's optional features. Expertise at level 1, Dex being a core stat for most, Pass Without Trace at level 5, as well as Silence which is also important for stealth sometimes. Hide in Plain Sight for situational +10 to stealth, or the optional Nature's Veil to become breifly invisible. Not amazing, but can help if you're running across an open hallway or something. Vanish at level 14 allows you to hide as a bonus action too, and makes you permanently untrackable by nonmagical means. Also, if you need to climb something, the optional features give you climbing speed, as well as boost your speed.
All that before subclasses. Gloom Stalker giving great spells for infiltration, as well as invisibility in the dark. Horizon Walker to just pass through walls. Fey Wanderer if you get caught to have a significant boost to your Charisma, if given a chance to use.
In addition to all that, better HP, better AC and generally better when in combat alone, if you're caught.
I didn't even think to look at the Ranger for a stealth build, so I'm glad you brought this up! You're right, by the metric I was using, the Ranger absolutely wins out.
And just to clarify, I'm not trying to prove that any class is inherently better or worse than the other. Going into D&D, I had the preconception that Rogues were geared toward being unseen and sneaking around, so I was surprised when none of the class features were directly related to disappearing or hiding in plain sight. Rogues are definitely amazing, so thanks for giving me a better idea of where they actually shine!
Additionally, the Armorer Artificer looks like an excellent candidate for this brand of sneakiness as well. Infiltrator armor gives permanent advantage to stealth, and the class is SAD enough that it would be easy to squeeze in a hybrid feat like Skill Expert to make up for the lack of expertise. No access to Pass Without Trace, but plenty of other options like Guidance and Invisibility.
I'm new to D&D overall, and like most people that discover the game, I've been making dozens of character sheets in an obsessive fugue. I wanted to make a character specifically dedicated to sneaking/scouting/infiltrating, and so I naturally started with the rogue. Looking at the class features though, I was pretty underwhelmed. The Rogue class has access to a lot of mechanically fantastic options, but nothing that directly contributes to sneaking. Some of the subclass options attempt to rectify this (notably Supreme Sneak from the Thief archetype), but not as much as I would expect from a class synonymous with stealth. Not to mention that it doesn't show up until 9th level.
This makes me think you haven't read the rogue class in its entirety.
'sneaking' in 5e is technically a skill that falls under stealth, which they as a class get the earliest expertise in.
Cunning action, which allows you to Hide as a bonus action, something no other class gets at their level.
Bloody Sneak attack, which is most commonly used from hiding or some other location where the enemy can't see you
Blindsense, although it may not seem like it, is a HUGE buff if you're trying to sneak around and avoid enemies.
Both the Bard and the Rogue get early access to expertise in stealth. The Rogue gets it a little earlier, and with a slight numerical advantage if you build them both to their respective core stats. At the same level the Bard's expertise comes online, they get access to another essential stealth tool: invisibility. The Rogue has several ways to gain access to this spell, but none of them are quite as handy. The Shadow Touched feat allows a free daily use, but unless the Rogue is an Arcane Trickster, they don't have the spell slots to cast it again. Arcane Tricksters gain access to the spell on their own, but not until level 7, and they have precious few slots to use on it.
By the time the Arcane Trickster gains access to invisibility, a Lore Bard has already gotten one of the best class features in the game: Additional Magic Secrets. At level 6, the Bard can select two spells out of any spell in the game. At 6th level, these are limited spell levels of 3rd or lower. Because sneakiness is the quality I'm measuring here, I'm going to look at one spell in particular.
Pass Without Trace.
That's a flat +10 to stealth checks for a 2nd level slot, which the Bard now has three of. And that's not all! You also cannot be tracked without your enemies employing magic. No tracks or trace of your passage. A Bard built around Dex will have a +10 to stealth checks.
I'll admit, bard seems like a strange comparison here, but here we go
Invisibility is nice but goes away after you try to do anything with it. to a rogue, useful, but their mechanics rely primarily on stealth, sneak attack, and bonus action hiding. invisibility in many cases can just be an unnecessary extra step.
You're also citing the Lore bard subclass a good bit, which is not indicative of all bards, I will say, but is one of the best bard subclasses, if not the best. Pass without trace? Lovely spell. But again, the rogue already has the bonuses it would add pretty much covered (although mini-maxers can go to town with it).
A lot of spellcasters are limited by spell slots, so while bards and wizards can cast really good spells, they have limited resources. The rogue's do too, but in different ways. they're fundamentally different base classes.
Yes, bards have access to similar abilities to Rogue's, but I ask: why do they need them? Sure, you could build a Dex based bard, but they're Charisma casters with no real need to sneak around, in most situations. The rogue is just better suited to it, and frankly, trying to build a bard that way to make up for a rogue is more likely to be frustrating than optimal.
You'll argue that Rogues get a similar failsafe to pad their stealth, namely Reliable Talent. This guarantees a floor of 10 on your dice roll, which admittedly is nice.
But, if you're under the effects of Pass Without Trace... Your minimum stealth roll, at level 6, is 21. Average roll of 30.5. Max of 40.
At level 7, when Arcane Tricksters finally nab that Invisibility spell, Lore Bards get its beefy older cousin: Greater Invisibility.
On a side note, in terms of damage output, Rogues DO have access to Sneak Attack... But Lore Bards get Fireball.
I guess my question is this:
If the Rogue isn't the master of sneak, what are they? I'd love to hear your thoughts. Do you like Rogues for your sneaky characters? Do you prefer Bards? Something else entirely? If you do love the Rogue, why? Let me know!
To the first part, again, Rogue's don't need it because they have expertise and bonus action Hide, and to your sneak attack argument...
What?
Um, you're comparing fireball, to a class ability. One of the best third level spells in the game, to a rogue ability that is, simply put, just different mechanically. Yes, they both deal damage. But I could just as easily say...
Fifth level fighters get extra attack, but fifth level wizards get lightning bolt, so extra attack is obsolete
Second level druids get wild shape, but second level clerics get guiding bolt, so wild shape is obsolete.
etc.
To conclude, Rogue's do have the tools to be master of le sneak, and while bards have a lot of tools in the toolbox, that's kind of their point (jack of all trades). That said, 5e is a pretty intimidating force to join at this point, as you said you're fairly new to it. Hope this helps, happy character-sheet spamming!
Spell slots are limited[.] [...] [W]hen your only argument is that bards are better because they have magic that makes them just as good at some things for some of the time then you have already lost the discussion.
I don't think that makes sense. How much time does a party need someone sneaking around in a day? Surely no more than a full caster could cover using all their spell slots.
But then they wouldn't have spell slots left! Oh no! Yes, admittedly, a Bard without spell slots remaining is worse than a Rogue without spell slots remaining. However, that's not the end of it.
Because sometimes you won't need anyone sneaking at all.
And on those days, the Bard can use their spell slots on all kinds of wacky things, while the Rogue... Well, can't.
So really, it's not about whether the Rogue can "go all day." It's about whether the party needs so much sneaking, that a Bard would be reduced to a cantrip factory, SO OFTEN that it's worth giving up the Bard's spellcasting flexibility on the off days.
I mean, really, it's not about that at all -- it's about whether you want to play a Rogue or a Bard, usually based on aesthetics, but also other things -- but you get my point.
Something that no one seems to have pointed out yet is the rogue's ability to dodge attacks. Besides its ability to Disengage or Dash as a bonus action, it gains a lot more defensive features than the bard does. Uncanny Dodge, which it unlocks at 5th level, allows it to halve the damage from any one incoming attack once per round, and Evasion at 7th allows it to slip out of area-of-effect attacks as well. You get additional defensive features at 15th and 18th levels, although you're not too likely to get that far in your campaign.
Another thing that I'd like to point out is that you only considered the Arcane Trickster and College of Lore for comparison. Those aren't the only bard and rogue subclasses, and shouldn't be treated like they are! The Assassin subclass, to name one is good at both dealing large amounts of damage and deceiving so well it rivals the silver-tongued bard's ability to impersonate and mislead. You don't necessarily need magic to excel in or out of combat.
Overall, bards and rogues are both skill-based, stealthy, scrappy fighters, but they both have some separate strengths and weaknesses as separate classes. They're both very powerful if played correctly, and they're both totally useless if played incorrectly.
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Panda-wat (I hate my username) is somehow convinced that he is objectively right about everything D&D related even though he obviously is not. Considering that, he'd probably make a great D&D youtuber.
"If I die, I can live with that." ~Luke Hart, the DM lair
Cunning action, which allows you to Hide as a bonus action, something no other class gets at their level.
I might be misunderstanding Cunning Action. Using a bonus action to Hide, Dash, or Disengage sounds like it would be incredibly useful in combat, but doesn't seem to have any utility at all outside of initiative.
I'm also not convinced of how useful the "Hide" action is by itself. You can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly, so no hiding in long, open hallways, for instance.
I guess "Scouting" or "Infiltrating" are better words to cover the set of abilities I was trying to measure. Get in, get out, don't get caught, don't enter initiative. I expected the Rogue to have the most tools for that specific scenario, but it seems like their abilities are more geared toward stealthy combat than stealthy roleplay. Which is fantastic, don't get me wrong! They seem to be the slipperiest class in combat, I just assumed they would be the slipperiest out of it as well.
Thanks again for all of the information! Rogues are quite a bit different than I expected, but they're a really neat class.
Rogues can be good at sneaking, but they don't have to be. It's a common misconception, which makes sense given how effective it is when used. However, as long as your party has at least one player standing on the front (most parties do... usually), you'll be able to deal sneak attack. Yes, advantage is a very nice thing to add, but giving it up allows you to do more things. Also, Tasha's optional feature at level 3 allows you to gain advantage more or less for free.
Also, now that I think about it, the best option to go undetected is most likely any Druid from level 2 and on. Turn into a spider or something. Nearly nobody can see you, you can climb any surface and your DM should justify why the one guard who happened to see you also just happens to be archanophobe and immediately attack the spider. I mean, unless you move right towards them, but you should probably just walk on the ceiling. Other imsects could also work, but spider makes the most sense, and you can't become a fly until level 8 (and even then... flies make noise). I'm not even bothering to look at any other class features, spells or subclasses.
... That the Bard doesn't do better?
Hello, all!
I'm new to D&D overall, and like most people that discover the game, I've been making dozens of character sheets in an obsessive fugue. I wanted to make a character specifically dedicated to sneaking/scouting/infiltrating, and so I naturally started with the rogue. Looking at the class features though, I was pretty underwhelmed. The Rogue class has access to a lot of mechanically fantastic options, but nothing that directly contributes to sneaking. Some of the subclass options attempt to rectify this (notably Supreme Sneak from the Thief archetype), but not as much as I would expect from a class synonymous with stealth. Not to mention that it doesn't show up until 9th level.
Let's take a look at their options.
Both the Bard and the Rogue get early access to expertise in stealth. The Rogue gets it a little earlier, and with a slight numerical advantage if you build them both to their respective core stats. At the same level the Bard's expertise comes online, they get access to another essential stealth tool: invisibility. The Rogue has several ways to gain access to this spell, but none of them are quite as handy. The Shadow Touched feat allows a free daily use, but unless the Rogue is an Arcane Trickster, they don't have the spell slots to cast it again. Arcane Tricksters gain access to the spell on their own, but not until level 7, and they have precious few slots to use on it.
By the time the Arcane Trickster gains access to invisibility, a Lore Bard has already gotten one of the best class features in the game: Additional Magic Secrets. At level 6, the Bard can select two spells out of any spell in the game. At 6th level, these are limited spell levels of 3rd or lower. Because sneakiness is the quality I'm measuring here, I'm going to look at one spell in particular.
Pass Without Trace.
That's a flat +10 to stealth checks for a 2nd level slot, which the Bard now has three of. And that's not all! You also cannot be tracked without your enemies employing magic. No tracks or trace of your passage. A Bard built around Dex will have a +10 to stealth checks.
You'll argue that Rogues get a similar failsafe to pad their stealth, namely Reliable Talent. This guarantees a floor of 10 on your dice roll, which admittedly is nice.
But, if you're under the effects of Pass Without Trace... Your minimum stealth roll, at level 6, is 21. Average roll of 30.5. Max of 40.
At level 7, when Arcane Tricksters finally nab that Invisibility spell, Lore Bards get its beefy older cousin: Greater Invisibility.
On a side note, in terms of damage output, Rogues DO have access to Sneak Attack... But Lore Bards get Fireball.
I guess my question is this:
If the Rogue isn't the master of sneak, what are they? I'd love to hear your thoughts. Do you like Rogues for your sneaky characters? Do you prefer Bards? Something else entirely? If you do love the Rogue, why? Let me know!
Bards never get the option to Hide as a Bonus Action and Invisibility is not actually a substitute for Hiding. Even if you are invisible, you can still be detected. Yes, Bards can get just as good at Stealth as a Rogue, but it does come at some expense to their main ability of social skills and spells. Besides, sometimes one just wants to play a character who doesn't cast spells and the Bard is a full caster.
Rogues are still the master of Sneaking and Attacking and Sneak Attacking and Bards will never quite match that ability, but why would they want to? Bards are built to be good at other things, the two classes cover different, if adjacent, themes.
I love playing both, so I did: https://ddb.ac/characters/2725951/q21uFK
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
A Rogue's Cunning Action is pretty class defining and is something a Bard just cannot do. So what does a Rogue do? They are sneaky, they are slippery, they are fast, they are skillful. Bards are also skillful, but they also tend to lean more suave and charming and magical than rogues. These two classes only step on each other's toes when the players are not paying attention. When they do pay attention and decide to work together instead of against each other, these two classes will actually dance together beautifully!
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Good point! Cunning Action definitely shakes up the Rogue's action economy, though that may not matter outside of initiative. When sneaking or scouting, usually the goal is to avoid combat altogether - for the time being.
I do seem to recall that hiding can only be done when a creature can't see you clearly anyway, and I believe that an invisible creature can always attempt to hide, regardless of cover.
Something else to note, a Rogue's abilities are mostly resource free. A Bard can run out of spell slots and Bardic Inspiration, but a Rogue will never run out of Cunning Action or Sneak Attack.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Spell slots are limited, the bard cannot cast pass without trace every time stealth is required, whereas the rogue can go all day. Greater invisibility only lasts 1 minute which is fine for combat use but not getting in somewhere you shouldn’t. People often massively over estimate what you can realistically do in just 60 seconds, it’s not even long enough for me to go to the toilet, let alone scale a fence, run across a garden, climb a wall and get in through an open upstairs window.
When your only argument is that bards are better because they have magic that makes them just as good at some things for some of the time then you have already lost the discussion.
Rogues are also very SAD (single attribute dependent).
Hmmm dex for most of their skills and fighting. Con for hitpoints, wisdom for finding traps and hidden treasure, int to investigate how to get around traps and research marks, charisma to talk their way out of trouble or get passed guards, strength to be able to climb garden fences or up to the open window on the second floor. Rogues are for sure not SAD.
A good rogue has no need of high HP; expertise in Perception; cover the rest with proficiency or expertise per taste. I don't mean everything but Dex is a dump stat, but once a rogue has Dex 20 they don't need ASIs, and are better served by feats.
Rogues can be skill monkies, but they don't have to be. If someone else has high charisma, you don't have to have it too. Sure, it will be a problem at some point, but you can't eat the cake and leave it whole. Same goes for any other stat other than Dex. So Rogues can be MAD, but they don't have to be. They can also be SAD without being any worse.
Anyway, back to topic, by your logic a Ranger is even better than both, using Tasha's optional features. Expertise at level 1, Dex being a core stat for most, Pass Without Trace at level 5, as well as Silence which is also important for stealth sometimes. Hide in Plain Sight for situational +10 to stealth, or the optional Nature's Veil to become breifly invisible. Not amazing, but can help if you're running across an open hallway or something. Vanish at level 14 allows you to hide as a bonus action too, and makes you permanently untrackable by nonmagical means. Also, if you need to climb something, the optional features give you climbing speed, as well as boost your speed.
All that before subclasses. Gloom Stalker giving great spells for infiltration, as well as invisibility in the dark. Horizon Walker to just pass through walls. Fey Wanderer if you get caught to have a significant boost to your Charisma, if given a chance to use.
In addition to all that, better HP, better AC and generally better when in combat alone, if you're caught.
Varielky
What does the Rogue do? Let's see:
Sneak Attack - some of the best single-target damage in the game. It scales, AND it can be used every single turn. Casters will run out of spell slots, Rogues will never run out of Sneak Attack
Expertise - Pick what you want to be good at and be REALLY good at it. Does the party need a scout? A nerd? A face? You can be that guy.
Cunning Action - Being able to Dash, Disengage or Hide without sacrificing your Attack can be HUGE in combat.
Uncanny Dodge - Cut one attack per round in half? YES PLEASE.
Evasion - Even MORE damage avoidance. Go tell that Ancient Red Dragon where he can stick his fire breath.
Reliable Talent - Be at least average at pretty much everything, and just about foolproof on the stuff you're actually good at
Blindsense - What do we say to the enemy's sneak? "Not today"
Slippery Mind - This plus the Resilient(Constitution) feat and you have all three major saving throws covered. That's AWESOME.
Elusive - Go ahead, flank me. It won't help.
Stroke Of Luck - When you're going for that epic finishing blow on the BBEG and roll poorly? Never mind, you hit anyway.
And that's just the base class features.
A goblin bard with proficiency in thieves tools can easily be a rogue-equivalent. But any other race will likely miss the ability to hide/disengage as a bonus action.
Rogues can get themselves out of a bad situation easier than Bards can. Like, if they screw up their Stealth. And they can use their sneakiness during combat, where Bards really struggle to do so.
These are all really great points!
It seems like I was doing Rogues a disservice by measuring them only on the ability to go unseen. I wanted my character to be the best at remaining stealthy out of combat, and assumed that was the Rogue's main toolkit.
My thought here was that, by level 3, Bards and Rogues could have the same stealth capabilities outside of initiative: +7 to sneak with expertise. At that point, having magic doesn't make them "just as good" as the Rogue at sneaking, it actually puts them ahead.
I didn't even think to look at the Ranger for a stealth build, so I'm glad you brought this up! You're right, by the metric I was using, the Ranger absolutely wins out.
And just to clarify, I'm not trying to prove that any class is inherently better or worse than the other. Going into D&D, I had the preconception that Rogues were geared toward being unseen and sneaking around, so I was surprised when none of the class features were directly related to disappearing or hiding in plain sight. Rogues are definitely amazing, so thanks for giving me a better idea of where they actually shine!
Additionally, the Armorer Artificer looks like an excellent candidate for this brand of sneakiness as well. Infiltrator armor gives permanent advantage to stealth, and the class is SAD enough that it would be easy to squeeze in a hybrid feat like Skill Expert to make up for the lack of expertise. No access to Pass Without Trace, but plenty of other options like Guidance and Invisibility.
This makes me think you haven't read the rogue class in its entirety.
'sneaking' in 5e is technically a skill that falls under stealth, which they as a class get the earliest expertise in.
Cunning action, which allows you to Hide as a bonus action, something no other class gets at their level.
Bloody Sneak attack, which is most commonly used from hiding or some other location where the enemy can't see you
Blindsense, although it may not seem like it, is a HUGE buff if you're trying to sneak around and avoid enemies.
etc.
I'll admit, bard seems like a strange comparison here, but here we go
Invisibility is nice but goes away after you try to do anything with it. to a rogue, useful, but their mechanics rely primarily on stealth, sneak attack, and bonus action hiding. invisibility in many cases can just be an unnecessary extra step.
You're also citing the Lore bard subclass a good bit, which is not indicative of all bards, I will say, but is one of the best bard subclasses, if not the best. Pass without trace? Lovely spell. But again, the rogue already has the bonuses it would add pretty much covered (although mini-maxers can go to town with it).
A lot of spellcasters are limited by spell slots, so while bards and wizards can cast really good spells, they have limited resources. The rogue's do too, but in different ways. they're fundamentally different base classes.
Yes, bards have access to similar abilities to Rogue's, but I ask: why do they need them? Sure, you could build a Dex based bard, but they're Charisma casters with no real need to sneak around, in most situations. The rogue is just better suited to it, and frankly, trying to build a bard that way to make up for a rogue is more likely to be frustrating than optimal.
To the first part, again, Rogue's don't need it because they have expertise and bonus action Hide, and to your sneak attack argument...
What?
Um, you're comparing fireball, to a class ability. One of the best third level spells in the game, to a rogue ability that is, simply put, just different mechanically. Yes, they both deal damage. But I could just as easily say...
Fifth level fighters get extra attack, but fifth level wizards get lightning bolt, so extra attack is obsolete
Second level druids get wild shape, but second level clerics get guiding bolt, so wild shape is obsolete.
etc.
To conclude, Rogue's do have the tools to be master of le sneak, and while bards have a lot of tools in the toolbox, that's kind of their point (jack of all trades). That said, 5e is a pretty intimidating force to join at this point, as you said you're fairly new to it. Hope this helps, happy character-sheet spamming!
- Gh0styy
Updog
I don't think that makes sense. How much time does a party need someone sneaking around in a day? Surely no more than a full caster could cover using all their spell slots.
But then they wouldn't have spell slots left! Oh no! Yes, admittedly, a Bard without spell slots remaining is worse than a Rogue without spell slots remaining. However, that's not the end of it.
Because sometimes you won't need anyone sneaking at all.
And on those days, the Bard can use their spell slots on all kinds of wacky things, while the Rogue... Well, can't.
So really, it's not about whether the Rogue can "go all day." It's about whether the party needs so much sneaking, that a Bard would be reduced to a cantrip factory, SO OFTEN that it's worth giving up the Bard's spellcasting flexibility on the off days.
I mean, really, it's not about that at all -- it's about whether you want to play a Rogue or a Bard, usually based on aesthetics, but also other things -- but you get my point.
Something that no one seems to have pointed out yet is the rogue's ability to dodge attacks. Besides its ability to Disengage or Dash as a bonus action, it gains a lot more defensive features than the bard does. Uncanny Dodge, which it unlocks at 5th level, allows it to halve the damage from any one incoming attack once per round, and Evasion at 7th allows it to slip out of area-of-effect attacks as well. You get additional defensive features at 15th and 18th levels, although you're not too likely to get that far in your campaign.
Another thing that I'd like to point out is that you only considered the Arcane Trickster and College of Lore for comparison. Those aren't the only bard and rogue subclasses, and shouldn't be treated like they are! The Assassin subclass, to name one is good at both dealing large amounts of damage and deceiving so well it rivals the silver-tongued bard's ability to impersonate and mislead. You don't necessarily need magic to excel in or out of combat.
Overall, bards and rogues are both skill-based, stealthy, scrappy fighters, but they both have some separate strengths and weaknesses as separate classes. They're both very powerful if played correctly, and they're both totally useless if played incorrectly.
Panda-wat (I hate my username) is somehow convinced that he is objectively right about everything D&D related even though he obviously is not. Considering that, he'd probably make a great D&D youtuber.
"If I die, I can live with that." ~Luke Hart, the DM lair
I might be misunderstanding Cunning Action. Using a bonus action to Hide, Dash, or Disengage sounds like it would be incredibly useful in combat, but doesn't seem to have any utility at all outside of initiative.
I'm also not convinced of how useful the "Hide" action is by itself. You can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly, so no hiding in long, open hallways, for instance.
I guess "Scouting" or "Infiltrating" are better words to cover the set of abilities I was trying to measure. Get in, get out, don't get caught, don't enter initiative. I expected the Rogue to have the most tools for that specific scenario, but it seems like their abilities are more geared toward stealthy combat than stealthy roleplay. Which is fantastic, don't get me wrong! They seem to be the slipperiest class in combat, I just assumed they would be the slipperiest out of it as well.
Thanks again for all of the information! Rogues are quite a bit different than I expected, but they're a really neat class.
Rogues can be good at sneaking, but they don't have to be. It's a common misconception, which makes sense given how effective it is when used. However, as long as your party has at least one player standing on the front (most parties do... usually), you'll be able to deal sneak attack. Yes, advantage is a very nice thing to add, but giving it up allows you to do more things. Also, Tasha's optional feature at level 3 allows you to gain advantage more or less for free.
Also, now that I think about it, the best option to go undetected is most likely any Druid from level 2 and on. Turn into a spider or something. Nearly nobody can see you, you can climb any surface and your DM should justify why the one guard who happened to see you also just happens to be archanophobe and immediately attack the spider. I mean, unless you move right towards them, but you should probably just walk on the ceiling. Other imsects could also work, but spider makes the most sense, and you can't become a fly until level 8 (and even then... flies make noise). I'm not even bothering to look at any other class features, spells or subclasses.
Varielky