Apologies in advance if this is a little convoluted.
I have been over thinking and weighing up the method of blocking stats for my players. Whenever I use buy/array I miss the randomness but whenever I use roll I dislike the highs/lows that players can feel and be ultimately stuck with.
For my next campaign I have created a composite method that I will trial. I rolled a large number of random stat block possibilities, took out ones that had over 16 and under 7 groups and ordered them into overall +1 to +9 arrays. There were 18 arrays left in total with two in each category from +1 to +9.
Players will roll 3D6 and count up to the that one. Players can then pick either of the arrays within that group. (I am aware that this means that there is a +2 minimum due to 3 being the lowest roll). E. G. If a player rolled 8 then they could pick either of the prerolled arrays from the overall +4 group.
This way there is randomness. The rolls were originally randomised and their rolling still gives them potential for a relatively mediocre array to a fairly good one with a much higher likelihood of being in the +4-+6 area.
No utterly awful blocks. No utterly crazy overbearing ones. Randomness and speed on the players' parts.
Has anyone else tried anything similar or better? Any issues with this?
Roll 1 or 2 = pick either of the +1 arrays (not possible)
I think I am following what you are saying, for the premade arrays, the total bonuses from stats a player gets is already decided. So for example, if I roll a 5, then the total of all my bonuses is +3. Am I correct in this? Also, I just roll 3D6 once?
Assuming, it is just 3D6 roll, I don't care for it. I take the chance that I get one crappy roll and my overall stats don't do much for me. But, if your players are up for it, then go for it.
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I don't like quotations, tell me what you know. - Ralph Waldo Emerson
One major issue is that ability scores can not go above 20, so a +6 would be impossible without magical assistance (according to the rules). This does mean that rolling while random could lead to some PCs having every stat maxed out, while other players end up low. I have mixed feelings. Obviously players love it when they roll an 18, but this would also mean that a character would potentially start the game with their main ability score already at max, and either make other scores good, or take a lot of feats, while the person who doesn't roll particularly bad is going to have to take the ability increases to increase their score and miss out on feats all because of a random role.
This does mean that point buy/ array is more fair, though lacking truly unique characters. Rolling helps make interesting characters.
In my opinion your solution makes rolling kinda blah as a player, since I wouldn't really be rolling my ability scores, but would be rolling for which array I would use. Personally I'd rather just roll dice, and if you don't want to count 1's or 2's let the player reroll those and have a lot more randomness between players.
I'm lucky with my group. They want roll their Abilities, no matter what. And one of them usually have a low-medium rolls who never wants the array or point-buy, and another medium-high rolls but the first don't feel unfair or bad for it.
But the balance between Characters it's something I always was worried about so maybe the next time I will try your system. Thx for it!
Oh, I forgot it. When I create NPCs I usually use two arrays to make it easy: Main NPC uses standard array (15 14 13 12 10 8), Secondary NPC uses a medium array (14 12 12 10 10 8), for any other I use the MM Apendix B. So my NPCs are so standarized, but is easy and quick create them, I don't use RPG Tinker or donjon NPC generator 'cause I like create them in the same way as PCs
For long-term play, first choice is array, second choice is point buy. I won't do rolling anymore. My DMing philosophy is that my responsibility is to the group, but part of that is taking care of myself. Attempting to work around a party that has an overly good or overly bad character is wear and tear on me that could be going to making the gameplay better. Everyone is getting an equal character in a class they're already interested in.
One-shot games I usually prefer pick-a-pregen or sealed envelope play. It's more fun to play outside your comfort zone and improv if you're only going to be doing it for 2-4 hours.
This is the benefit on the system that I will be trialing. I can close the gap as much as I like and have as much or little difference between them whilst still giving them an element of randomness.
I've learned as a DM I tend to make the enemies a bit powerful. Often to the point that my level 1 players kind of need to be a bit badass from the start, but my players love the roll system, so I guarantee them one 17, and have them roll 4d6 for the other five.
They re roll ones once, then drop the lowest of the 4d6 and that's a stat. I also tell them if they roll four 6s right off they get an 19, and if they get four 1s I'll give them a 20. These rarely happen, and even with that my players get a good mix, and when they build their characters they come back with someone that's really good at something, but not everything. This tends to make them even out with what I'm going to put them up agaisnt at the very beginning. It should also be noted that I throw enough at them on the first session that they'd be level 3 by the end of it. If they survive
As someone who started with AD&D with the majority of my experience in 3.5/Pathfinder I have a special place in my heart for rolling stats. Having characters in the party that were stronger or weaker stat wise could always be handled based with customization and roleplaying. The difference of a few points didn't really effect the game too much. Although as a DM I always made sure to have people who rolled REALLY POORLY to have an extra chance or free points to allocate.
With 5E I just can't bring myself to do that though. Bounded accuracy makes it so every +1 is important for consistency. With the lack of magic boosts as well (depending on setting/game) I can't have the same level of variance otherwise players who didn't roll as well will enjoy themselves less.
I always do point-buy or standard array. Too many times people have either rolled godly stats and taken over an entire game (mountain dwarf with 20 strength and constitution at level 1) or very poor stats and feel just like a waste of space (people with multiple sub 10 stats and nothing higher than 15 even after racial stats). I would rather avoid that all together. If you want higher stats change up the array or give more points during these methods.
Had a similar situation, easily fixed with a cursed item (tome of strength-2, he was so pissed). Permanent stat loss as opposed to gain. Or you can just say "hey man, too powerful, I'm gonna nerf your stat a bit, here's an extra hundred gold budget to outfit your character with before we start, or tell the weaker stat rollers "hey, let's replace that 8 in CON with a 13, so you don't end up that character with a gluten allergy in a setting where all the booze is pretty much liquid bread"
I personally prefer point buy, because it gives customization and puts everyone on equal footing. I don't worry too much about Min/Maxing because sure someone could have a 20 and 5 8s, but it's a choice the player makes verses the well rounded character.
On the other hand I don't think the standard array is really "good enough", but I'm used to pretty small groups/tough games.
Numbers wise I think D&D is balanced with the main stat for any class be a 16. I could be wrong, but I feel like if I want to be "good" at whatever role I want my character to fill I'lll need that +3 to have a chance to shining at it. (at first level and trained I'll have an over all +5 to the skill, attack, save, etc... This is a 75% at DC:10 and 50% at DC:15) With a +2 in whatever is your supplementary stat/skill.
And "Yes" I can achieve this inside the standard array, but then my character's race becomes very important in optimizing the stat block to be effective at what I want me character to do, which I have problems with.
In a current game we're did roll and I got very lucky (16/15/13/13/12/10). The girl playing our rogue got very very unlucky. (her highest stat is a single +2 with two -1s). This often has meant my Druid is actually better at most Rogue things then her Rogue is. She also just "wiffs" way more in combat. I've actually tried to be careful not to step on her toes and help assist her (giving her flanking... plus getting it too).
Example, my Stealth is +5 (+3 Dex/+2 Trained) her Stealth is +6 (+2 Dex/+2 Trained/+2 Expertise). We're the lightest armored pair so we often adventure out together, and I've gotten a reputation in the group as being Stealthy too. We just started acquiring magic items specifically told the GM that while normally I might pick up Boots of Elvenkind, I specifically don't want to be too much better then her because it's her character's thing. I have other things and try to support her role in the party.
You can role play all you want, but if your stat block don't live up to expectations your character will never roll the role.
I personally prefer rolling, however I'm cognizant of the issues it causes. I give players a reroll if they don't roll at least a 15 on one stat, if they roll two stats at 7 or less, or if their roll total is less than 70. This should give everyone at least some options as to what class to play while still being effective and not being overshadowed by "the cleric who is better at fighting than the fighter."
However, if there isn't an option to reroll abysmal rolls, I'd far prefer doing either point buy or a standard array.
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Apologies in advance if this is a little convoluted.
I have been over thinking and weighing up the method of blocking stats for my players. Whenever I use buy/array I miss the randomness but whenever I use roll I dislike the highs/lows that players can feel and be ultimately stuck with.
For my next campaign I have created a composite method that I will trial. I rolled a large number of random stat block possibilities, took out ones that had over 16 and under 7 groups and ordered them into overall +1 to +9 arrays. There were 18 arrays left in total with two in each category from +1 to +9.
Players will roll 3D6 and count up to the that one. Players can then pick either of the arrays within that group. (I am aware that this means that there is a +2 minimum due to 3 being the lowest roll). E. G. If a player rolled 8 then they could pick either of the prerolled arrays from the overall +4 group.
This way there is randomness. The rolls were originally randomised and their rolling still gives them potential for a relatively mediocre array to a fairly good one with a much higher likelihood of being in the +4-+6 area.
No utterly awful blocks. No utterly crazy overbearing ones. Randomness and speed on the players' parts.
Has anyone else tried anything similar or better? Any issues with this?
Roll 1 or 2 = pick either of the +1 arrays (not possible)
Roll 3 or 4 = +2 array
Roll 4 or 5 = +3 array
And so on
I think I am following what you are saying, for the premade arrays, the total bonuses from stats a player gets is already decided. So for example, if I roll a 5, then the total of all my bonuses is +3. Am I correct in this? Also, I just roll 3D6 once?
Assuming, it is just 3D6 roll, I don't care for it. I take the chance that I get one crappy roll and my overall stats don't do much for me. But, if your players are up for it, then go for it.
I don't like quotations, tell me what you know. - Ralph Waldo Emerson
This does mean that point buy/ array is more fair, though lacking truly unique characters. Rolling helps make interesting characters.
The plusses are not on each stat but overall total bonus for the array e.g. 12, 8, 14, 11, 10, 12 would give an overall value of +3.
I don't allow stats to go above 16 as a start as per point buy etc either.
This just guarantees midrange on a roll with some element of randomness.
It gives a 49% or so chance of hitting a +5/+6 array with +5 being the value of the standard array but then they can also pick between two arrays.
As originally posted apologies for it being convoluted and not clear but it really is simpler in practice than rolling/point buy lol
I'm lucky with my group. They want roll their Abilities, no matter what. And one of them usually have a low-medium rolls who never wants the array or point-buy, and another medium-high rolls but the first don't feel unfair or bad for it.
But the balance between Characters it's something I always was worried about so maybe the next time I will try your system. Thx for it!
D&D Beyond Mobile Alpha Tester
I like to use the standard spread from the PHB. It makes that choice of stat bump or feat more interesting assuming you use feats in your game.
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Oh, I forgot it. When I create NPCs I usually use two arrays to make it easy: Main NPC uses standard array (15 14 13 12 10 8), Secondary NPC uses a medium array (14 12 12 10 10 8), for any other I use the MM Apendix B. So my NPCs are so standarized, but is easy and quick create them, I don't use RPG Tinker or donjon NPC generator 'cause I like create them in the same way as PCs
D&D Beyond Mobile Alpha Tester
For long-term play, first choice is array, second choice is point buy. I won't do rolling anymore. My DMing philosophy is that my responsibility is to the group, but part of that is taking care of myself. Attempting to work around a party that has an overly good or overly bad character is wear and tear on me that could be going to making the gameplay better. Everyone is getting an equal character in a class they're already interested in.
One-shot games I usually prefer pick-a-pregen or sealed envelope play. It's more fun to play outside your comfort zone and improv if you're only going to be doing it for 2-4 hours.
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D&D Beyond FoundersThe risk with rolling stats is that you can end up with some situations that are really hard to address.
Player A rolls some amazing stats and decided to be a Cleric.
Player B rolls some pretty poor stats and wants to be a Fighter.
Due to the stat differences, the Cleric is significantly better at fighting than the Fighter, which won't be a lot of fun for Player B.
Now, I understand that as the characters level up, it'll be less of an issue, but those first few levels stats are really important.
I stick with points system, though I may vary the number of points available slightly depending on the theme of the campaign.
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This is the benefit on the system that I will be trialing. I can close the gap as much as I like and have as much or little difference between them whilst still giving them an element of randomness.
I've learned as a DM I tend to make the enemies a bit powerful. Often to the point that my level 1 players kind of need to be a bit badass from the start, but my players love the roll system, so I guarantee them one 17, and have them roll 4d6 for the other five.
They re roll ones once, then drop the lowest of the 4d6 and that's a stat. I also tell them if they roll four 6s right off they get an 19, and if they get four 1s I'll give them a 20. These rarely happen, and even with that my players get a good mix, and when they build their characters they come back with someone that's really good at something, but not everything. This tends to make them even out with what I'm going to put them up agaisnt at the very beginning. It should also be noted that I throw enough at them on the first session that they'd be level 3 by the end of it. If they survive
it could be worse, you could be on fire.
As someone who started with AD&D with the majority of my experience in 3.5/Pathfinder I have a special place in my heart for rolling stats.
Having characters in the party that were stronger or weaker stat wise could always be handled based with customization and roleplaying. The difference of a few points didn't really effect the game too much. Although as a DM I always made sure to have people who rolled REALLY POORLY to have an extra chance or free points to allocate.
With 5E I just can't bring myself to do that though. Bounded accuracy makes it so every +1 is important for consistency. With the lack of magic boosts as well (depending on setting/game) I can't have the same level of variance otherwise players who didn't roll as well will enjoy themselves less.
Natural 20 Charisma
I always do the point buy system. It is the fairest.
I always do point-buy or standard array. Too many times people have either rolled godly stats and taken over an entire game (mountain dwarf with 20 strength and constitution at level 1) or very poor stats and feel just like a waste of space (people with multiple sub 10 stats and nothing higher than 15 even after racial stats). I would rather avoid that all together. If you want higher stats change up the array or give more points during these methods.
I don't like the static nature of the array system or the over min maxxing that point buy usually gives.
Had a similar situation, easily fixed with a cursed item (tome of strength-2, he was so pissed). Permanent stat loss as opposed to gain. Or you can just say "hey man, too powerful, I'm gonna nerf your stat a bit, here's an extra hundred gold budget to outfit your character with before we start, or tell the weaker stat rollers "hey, let's replace that 8 in CON with a 13, so you don't end up that character with a gluten allergy in a setting where all the booze is pretty much liquid bread"
you are the DM after all.
it could be worse, you could be on fire.
Why point buy is better.
There is a compromise however. There are 65 possible point-buy combinations. So use an online dice roller to roll 1d65 and consult that list :)
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I personally prefer point buy, because it gives customization and puts everyone on equal footing. I don't worry too much about Min/Maxing because sure someone could have a 20 and 5 8s, but it's a choice the player makes verses the well rounded character.
On the other hand I don't think the standard array is really "good enough", but I'm used to pretty small groups/tough games.
Numbers wise I think D&D is balanced with the main stat for any class be a 16. I could be wrong, but I feel like if I want to be "good" at whatever role I want my character to fill I'lll need that +3 to have a chance to shining at it. (at first level and trained I'll have an over all +5 to the skill, attack, save, etc... This is a 75% at DC:10 and 50% at DC:15) With a +2 in whatever is your supplementary stat/skill.
And "Yes" I can achieve this inside the standard array, but then my character's race becomes very important in optimizing the stat block to be effective at what I want me character to do, which I have problems with.
In a current game we're did roll and I got very lucky (16/15/13/13/12/10). The girl playing our rogue got very very unlucky. (her highest stat is a single +2 with two -1s). This often has meant my Druid is actually better at most Rogue things then her Rogue is. She also just "wiffs" way more in combat. I've actually tried to be careful not to step on her toes and help assist her (giving her flanking... plus getting it too).
Example, my Stealth is +5 (+3 Dex/+2 Trained) her Stealth is +6 (+2 Dex/+2 Trained/+2 Expertise). We're the lightest armored pair so we often adventure out together, and I've gotten a reputation in the group as being Stealthy too. We just started acquiring magic items specifically told the GM that while normally I might pick up Boots of Elvenkind, I specifically don't want to be too much better then her because it's her character's thing. I have other things and try to support her role in the party.
You can role play all you want, but if your stat block don't live up to expectations your character will never roll the role.
I personally prefer rolling, however I'm cognizant of the issues it causes. I give players a reroll if they don't roll at least a 15 on one stat, if they roll two stats at 7 or less, or if their roll total is less than 70. This should give everyone at least some options as to what class to play while still being effective and not being overshadowed by "the cleric who is better at fighting than the fighter."
However, if there isn't an option to reroll abysmal rolls, I'd far prefer doing either point buy or a standard array.