My DM wanted to play through a Campaign with evil characters or something similar. So basically we are evil. I thought about an Master of Manipulation, that would play like an innocent guy. Now i heared there are multiple ways to do that, like Wizard, school of illusions, aberrant mind sorcerer, bard, etc. Now the thing is, that i am not sure which one is an efficient for the character i want to. I got much information from other threads and websites, but i am never sure about it. The character i want to create is:
innocent upfront
hiding his intention
seeing others(everyone) as tools
i think its an basic manipulator, but i am really stuck on that. i dont want to ask my dm, because he likes to make then annoying pins on this. As well my friends are the party members, that are the "tools" as well.
What you’ve described are all role playing choices. Any class can pull it off. Just take deception and persuasion as skills, and don’t dump cha.
Some classes will be better at it — probably an eloquence bard for example. But anything could work.
Though I’d also warn you against considering the party to be tools. I know you’re all evil, so maybe everyone expects this sort of thing, but treating party members poorly often leads to games ending. At least, you all really need a very robust session 0 to make sure everyone agrees if there’s any hard limits.
I made a Monk homebrew for this type of Hidden Master character. It doesn't do much to make the monk better in combat, but it adds a lot of tools for social deception and beguiling others.
I never got a chance to playtest it at higher levels, and if homebrew is off-limits it's probably not much use, but maybe the feature list might give you some ideas:
There are lots of ways to make that type of character. I made one as a cleric, and another version of it as a wizard. These are the assumptions I made for my characters:
1. My character is physically weak, thus must rely on their allies for protection & to overcome physical challenges.
2. Rather that fighting enemies directly, which might attract their attention, my character fights indirectly by buffing & helping their allies or distracting their foes.
3. Good allies are hard to find, thus my character wants to protect the ones I've got to save them the trouble of finding new allies.
This makes you a support-evil character, and makes any full-caster that doesn't wear a lot of armour and has lots of ranged spells a fitting build.
Thanks for the questions and inputs. Ill answer these here.
Answer 1-4 are from the questions of Mdhe.
Answer 5 is from the input of Xalthu.
Answer 6 is from the idea of MysterX
1. I have no preference in this one. But i think intelligence shouldnt be dumped on.
2. This does not matter towards me.
2a. Not really. This would give a good goal for my character, like trying to break ties somehow.
3. He should be avle to hold his own.
4. This does not matter for me
5. About the warning because of treating the party poorly, my character eouldnt mistreat them. He would play as innocent and as a nice guy in this group. But behind the mask, i understand. But this shouldnt be a problem.
6. Please no homebrew. My dm does not like homebrew subclasses.
@Agilemind This is a good idea, but for me, he shouldnt be a complete support char. He should be able to defeat others as well. Thank you, but sadly its not what i search for.
@Agilemind This is a good idea, but for me, he shouldnt be a complete support char. He should be able to defeat others as well. Thank you, but sadly its not what i search for.
Then make any character with a decently high CHA and proficiency or expertise in deception, and RP them as evil and hiding their intentions. Any of the CHA-focused classes will work:
Conquest or Oathbreaker Paladin, any Bard (Lore would work best if you want more of a mastermind feel), any Sorcerer, any Warlock (Pact of the Chain is easiest if you want to be domineering/exploitative, Tome if you want more evil-genius feel), even a Swashbuckler Rogue or Fey Wanderer Ranger if you want more of a cheeky manipulator.
Of these Bard is pretty much a support class so probably out. Warlock has pretty strong I-am-evil vibes so would make trying to play innocent more challenging. Whereas Sorcerer you can easily use a "oops my magic got out of control" excuse to get away with your evil mischief, and Paladin you could always pretend to be one of the good subclasses while actually being one of the evil ones.
All right, three suggestions. First: Warlock, Archfey Patron (Players' Handbook) or Celestial Patron (Xanathar's Guide to Everything). I'm gonna let you in on a secret: Warlocks are low-key the best class in the game. They're very capable in a fight, and since your spells scale off Charisma you don't need to worry about splitting your ASIs between combat and social stats. Eldritch Invocations give you a great range of social and combat options. Wanna cast Disguise Self whenever you want? Play a Warlock. Wanna see through walls? Play a Warlock. Wanna stay up all night scheming while the plebs have to sleep? Warlock. (Or Elf, but like... Have some self-respect.) The Archfey patron features extra options for manipulating emotions, and is less inherently scary than other patrons. You could also pick the Celestial patron if your DM lets you-- that'll really throw them off the trail. Regardless of your Patron, I'd recommend taking Pact of the Chain for a free familiar that can help you gather useful information.
Second: Bard, College of Whispers (XGtE). Keep this on the down low, but Bards are basically the best class in the game. Jack of all Trades is amazing on its own, but add in Expertise and you're a Jack of All Trades, Master of Four. For your character I would pick Insight, Persuasion, and Deception as Expertises, and you'll still have one left to do with what you will. You could use almost any Bard College with this setup, but I recommend Whispers because it gives you the ability to freely disguise yourself as people you've killed (sorry, people who "die near you"). The ability to use your Bardic Inspiration to add bonus damage to your own attacks also makes Whispers bards stronger than average in direct combat.
Third: Rogue, Assassin (PHB) or Swashbuckler (XGtE) archetype. Most players don't realize, but Rogues are actually the best class in the game. We already talked about how Expertise is good, but with Reliable Talent and Expertise together, you literally can't roll below a 20? That's gotta be a mistake; definitely don't let the developers know about that one. Now some folks are gonna tell you Rogues aren't good in a fight, but have you seen that Sneak Attack damage? Just make Stealth one of your Expertises, Bonus Action Hide every turn (oops, all 20s!) and deal literally Fireball-level damage with a light crossbow. It's basically criminal. Speaking of criminals, pick the Assassin archetype if you want to make the College of Whispers Bard look like a chump (Oh, people get to roll to see through your disguise? Skill issue) or pick Swashbuckler if you want to make Charisma a combat stat (also gives you the ability to actually, mechanically Charm people with Persuasion checks. Magic? Nah, you're just that good). The Mastermind (XGtE) archetype gets honorable mention for having access to ranged Help as a Bonus Action and the ability to force your DM to tell you what NPCs' stats are, but I wouldn't take it over the other options unless you expect to reach level 17 (at which point the Mastermind becomes immune to truth).
Hopefully one of those speaks to you. Obviously there are other ways to do what you want but I think these are some of the most mechanically robust.
Thank you for your ideas. So there are countless builds. Bards are not my favorite class to be honest. I dont like to be a support and for this build is not helpfull either. The other ideas looks pretty good. Sorcerer makes sense, while warlock would give me a goal. about the rogue and ranger build it is a good idea, but after i looked at that i am not really sure this is what i searched for.
Now i am confused. You say to all of these classes, that this is the best.
To the first build: Sounds good. I have heard good things about warlocks, but i never played them till now. maybe this is my chance to try one, but i will still consider other options first before deciding.
Second option: I am not a fan of being a support. So sadly no.
Third option: We have no flanking rule in the game, so the sneak attack gets debuffed pretty heavily. DM decided on that. About not failing a throw easily would be good. Sadly being a sneaky guy upfront in battle like this, does not match the personality.
Level 1 go Rogue and grab expertise in deception and persuasion.
Level 2 go Hexblade for your offensive abilities like Eldritch Blast and Green Flame Blade
Level 3-9 go back to Rogue and subclass into Arcane Trickster. Use your ASIs to max out CHA and also grab expertise in sleight of hand.
The rest of the build is up to you but at this point you have a smooth talking mini caster that has decent damage in both ranged or melee. You also possess an invisible Mage Hand to pickpocket or plant evidence with. If you had a odd CHA score I would recommend the Telekinetic feat. While you can already make your Mage Hand invisible from the Arcane Trickster subclass, the ability to cast it without verbal or somatic components is a great addition especially if you want to do some shady business in a crowded place.
Now i am confused. You say to all of these classes, that this is the best.
To the first build: Sounds good. I have heard good things about warlocks, but i never played them till now. maybe this is my chance to try one, but i will still consider other options first before deciding.
Second option: I am not a fan of being a support. So sadly no.
Third option: We have no flanking rule in the game, so the sneak attack gets debuffed pretty heavily. DM decided on that. About not failing a throw easily would be good. Sadly being a sneaky guy upfront in battle like this, does not match the personality.
Ok, if you like Sorcerer then:
Divine Soul Sorcerer Race: Half Elf Divine Magic: Evil Feats: Fey Touched (Dissonant Whispers + Misty Step), Telepathic (Detect Thoughts), Telekinetic (Mage Hand) Metamagic: Subtle Spell, Empowered Spell, Quickened Spell Spells: Fire Bolt, Friends, Mage Hand, Mind Sliver, Ray of Frost, Thaumaturgy Command, Dissonant Whispers, Inflict Wounds, Mage Armour, Shield Detect Thoughts, Misty Step, Tasha's Mind Whip Counterspell, Enemies Abound, Fireball Greater Invisibility (Polymorph is also a decent option) Animate Objects, Summon Celestial, Telekinesis Mental Prison Reverse Gravity
Theme: you were born of divinity and everyone expected you to be their righteous savior, but you realized they were just using you as an excuse to continue to be selfish & greedy and refusing to solve their own problems. Well, if they wanted to use you, you would learn to use them instead. Turning neighbour upon neighbour and tricking the fools into doing the exact opposite of what would actually solve their problems you left a trail of chaos and destruction in your wake as you wandered the world looking for others who saw the hypocrisy of the world as you do...
Now i am confused. You say to all of these classes, that this is the best.
Sorry, that was just a bit of a joke. Any class can be "the best" if it's one you like to play.
Three additional points on the Rogue's Sneak Attack: I've never played in a game with flanking, but activating Sneak Attack is still pretty straightforward.
1) You get advantage on any attack you make while unseen by your target. So if you Hide as your Bonus Action, and they don't find you before your next turn, you can attack with advantage and use Sneak Attack. This is the usual Rogue combat loop; Attack, Hide, repeat.
2) If you don't have advantage on an attack roll, you can still activate Sneak Attack if one of your allies is within 5 feet of the target. That's not flanking, it's just how Sneak Attack works. But if your DM still bans that, you have a third option.
3) As a Swashbuckler, you can use your Sneak Attack on a creature as long as you're within 5 ft of the target, no other creatures are within 5 ft of you, and you don't have Disadvantage on the attack. This frees up your Bonus Action to Disengage, so you can run in, hit hard, and then dip out without getting hit in return. It's very flashy and heroic looking, but actually pretty safe.
Now i am confused. You say to all of these classes, that this is the best.
To the first build: Sounds good. I have heard good things about warlocks, but i never played them till now. maybe this is my chance to try one, but i will still consider other options first before deciding.
Second option: I am not a fan of being a support. So sadly no.
Third option: We have no flanking rule in the game, so the sneak attack gets debuffed pretty heavily. DM decided on that. About not failing a throw easily would be good. Sadly being a sneaky guy upfront in battle like this, does not match the personality.
Ok, if you like Sorcerer then:
Divine Soul Sorcerer Race: Half Elf Divine Magic: Evil Feats: Fey Touched (Dissonant Whispers + Misty Step), Telepathic (Detect Thoughts), Telekinetic (Mage Hand) Metamagic: Subtle Spell, Empowered Spell, Quickened Spell Spells: Fire Bolt, Friends, Mage Hand, Mind Sliver, Ray of Frost, Thaumaturgy Command, Dissonant Whispers, Inflict Wounds, Mage Armour, Shield Detect Thoughts, Misty Step, Tasha's Mind Whip Counterspell, Enemies Abound, Fireball Greater Invisibility (Polymorph is also a decent option) Animate Objects, Summon Celestial, Telekinesis Mental Prison Reverse Gravity
Theme: you were born of divinity and everyone expected you to be their righteous savior, but you realized they were just using you as an excuse to continue to be selfish & greedy and refusing to solve their own problems. Well, if they wanted to use you, you would learn to use them instead. Turning neighbour upon neighbour and tricking the fools into doing the exact opposite of what would actually solve their problems you left a trail of chaos and destruction in your wake as you wandered the world looking for others who saw the hypocrisy of the world as you do...
Well this sounds fun. This is a fun way as well. Like having clerics to misguide everyone but then still being a sorcerer.
Now i am confused. You say to all of these classes, that this is the best.
Sorry, that was just a bit of a joke. Any class can be "the best" if it's one you like to play.
Three additional points on the Rogue's Sneak Attack: I've never played in a game with flanking, but activating Sneak Attack is still pretty straightforward.
1) You get advantage on any attack you make while unseen by your target. So if you Hide as your Bonus Action, and they don't find you before your next turn, you can attack with advantage and use Sneak Attack. This is the usual Rogue combat loop; Attack, Hide, repeat.
2) If you don't have advantage on an attack roll, you can still activate Sneak Attack if one of your allies is within 5 feet of the target. That's not flanking, it's just how Sneak Attack works. But if your DM still bans that, you have a third option.
3) As a Swashbuckler, you can use your Sneak Attack on a creature as long as you're within 5 ft of the target, no other creatures are within 5 ft of you, and you don't have Disadvantage on the attack. This frees up your Bonus Action to Disengage, so you can run in, hit hard, and then dip out without getting hit in return. It's very flashy and heroic looking, but actually pretty safe.
I thought that flanking is a common rule that people use to make the use of movement more important and boost the rogue heavily. But still like i said, i think as rogue only build you dont really have a good chance to play an innocent guy, because you are actively sneaking around and attacking from the shadows.
I thought that flanking is a common rule that people use to make the use of movement more important and boost the rogue heavily. But still like i said, i think as rogue only build you dont really have a good chance to play an innocent guy, because you are actively sneaking around and attacking from the shadows.
Flanking is a separate, optional rule that I believe gives advantage to attacks when you and your allies are in certain positions; I'm not sure exactly how it works, I've never used it. Sneak Attack is explicitly allowed to be activated when you attack a creature that is also within 5 feet of one of your allies; this isn't part of the optional flanking rules, it's part of how Sneak Attack works all the time.
But you're right, it doesn't sound like Rogue is what you're looking for anyway. It sounds like Sorcerer and Warlock both appeal to you, so I encourage you to go with one of those.
Natural High Charisma, Expertise, unfailing Deception and persuation (can not roll lower then 10). Unsettling Word (as a bonus you give a creature a malus to their Saves equal to your bardic inspiration), lots of illusions and charm spells, grab Silvery Barbs and Misty Step with Fey Touched feat.
Downside is the lack of defence, so grabbing a second class for medium armor may be good. (Hexblade works great, but one lvl in Cleric, Fighter or Artificer work too.
Personally i would go 1lvl Artificer and 12 lvl Bard. You still can get 7th lvl spell slots and use your Magical Secrets to pick.
I am sorry that i didnt reply till now. I had some personal problems that i finally solved.
I want to thank everyone for their answer. There were multiple good ideas for such a build.
I decided now on building the sorcerer build. But again thanks to everyone. Hope this thread will help others that have the same idea as build as well.
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My DM wanted to play through a Campaign with evil characters or something similar. So basically we are evil. I thought about an Master of Manipulation, that would play like an innocent guy. Now i heared there are multiple ways to do that, like Wizard, school of illusions, aberrant mind sorcerer, bard, etc. Now the thing is, that i am not sure which one is an efficient for the character i want to. I got much information from other threads and websites, but i am never sure about it.
The character i want to create is:
i think its an basic manipulator, but i am really stuck on that. i dont want to ask my dm, because he likes to make then annoying pins on this. As well my friends are the party members, that are the "tools" as well.
About the level. it would be an lvl 13 char.
Okay, as you've mentioned there are a lot of ways to do a version of what you want. Let's narrow those down with some establishing questions.
1. Do you imagine this character focusing more on Intelligence, more on Charisma, or no preference?
2. Do you want to use magic?
2a. If yes to the above, is being indebted to a horrifying eldritch being a deal-breaker?
3. Do you want to be able to hold your own in a stand-up fight, or do you prefer to let others fight for you?
4. Do you prefer to be pretty good at a lot of things, or very good at one thing?
What you’ve described are all role playing choices. Any class can pull it off. Just take deception and persuasion as skills, and don’t dump cha.
Some classes will be better at it — probably an eloquence bard for example. But anything could work.
Though I’d also warn you against considering the party to be tools. I know you’re all evil, so maybe everyone expects this sort of thing, but treating party members poorly often leads to games ending. At least, you all really need a very robust session 0 to make sure everyone agrees if there’s any hard limits.
I made a Monk homebrew for this type of Hidden Master character. It doesn't do much to make the monk better in combat, but it adds a lot of tools for social deception and beguiling others.
I never got a chance to playtest it at higher levels, and if homebrew is off-limits it's probably not much use, but maybe the feature list might give you some ideas:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/subclasses/1346983-path-of-the-humble-godling
All generalizations are false.
There are lots of ways to make that type of character. I made one as a cleric, and another version of it as a wizard. These are the assumptions I made for my characters:
1. My character is physically weak, thus must rely on their allies for protection & to overcome physical challenges.
2. Rather that fighting enemies directly, which might attract their attention, my character fights indirectly by buffing & helping their allies or distracting their foes.
3. Good allies are hard to find, thus my character wants to protect the ones I've got to save them the trouble of finding new allies.
This makes you a support-evil character, and makes any full-caster that doesn't wear a lot of armour and has lots of ranged spells a fitting build.
Thanks for the questions and inputs. Ill answer these here.
Answer 1-4 are from the questions of Mdhe.
Answer 5 is from the input of Xalthu.
Answer 6 is from the idea of MysterX
1. I have no preference in this one. But i think intelligence shouldnt be dumped on.
2. This does not matter towards me.
2a. Not really. This would give a good goal for my character, like trying to break ties somehow.
3. He should be avle to hold his own.
4. This does not matter for me
5. About the warning because of treating the party poorly, my character eouldnt mistreat them. He would play as innocent and as a nice guy in this group. But behind the mask, i understand. But this shouldnt be a problem.
6. Please no homebrew. My dm does not like homebrew subclasses.
@Agilemind This is a good idea, but for me, he shouldnt be a complete support char. He should be able to defeat others as well.
Thank you, but sadly its not what i search for.
Then make any character with a decently high CHA and proficiency or expertise in deception, and RP them as evil and hiding their intentions. Any of the CHA-focused classes will work:
Conquest or Oathbreaker Paladin, any Bard (Lore would work best if you want more of a mastermind feel), any Sorcerer, any Warlock (Pact of the Chain is easiest if you want to be domineering/exploitative, Tome if you want more evil-genius feel), even a Swashbuckler Rogue or Fey Wanderer Ranger if you want more of a cheeky manipulator.
Of these Bard is pretty much a support class so probably out. Warlock has pretty strong I-am-evil vibes so would make trying to play innocent more challenging. Whereas Sorcerer you can easily use a "oops my magic got out of control" excuse to get away with your evil mischief, and Paladin you could always pretend to be one of the good subclasses while actually being one of the evil ones.
All right, three suggestions. First: Warlock, Archfey Patron (Players' Handbook) or Celestial Patron (Xanathar's Guide to Everything). I'm gonna let you in on a secret: Warlocks are low-key the best class in the game. They're very capable in a fight, and since your spells scale off Charisma you don't need to worry about splitting your ASIs between combat and social stats. Eldritch Invocations give you a great range of social and combat options. Wanna cast Disguise Self whenever you want? Play a Warlock. Wanna see through walls? Play a Warlock. Wanna stay up all night scheming while the plebs have to sleep? Warlock. (Or Elf, but like... Have some self-respect.) The Archfey patron features extra options for manipulating emotions, and is less inherently scary than other patrons. You could also pick the Celestial patron if your DM lets you-- that'll really throw them off the trail. Regardless of your Patron, I'd recommend taking Pact of the Chain for a free familiar that can help you gather useful information.
Second: Bard, College of Whispers (XGtE). Keep this on the down low, but Bards are basically the best class in the game. Jack of all Trades is amazing on its own, but add in Expertise and you're a Jack of All Trades, Master of Four. For your character I would pick Insight, Persuasion, and Deception as Expertises, and you'll still have one left to do with what you will. You could use almost any Bard College with this setup, but I recommend Whispers because it gives you the ability to freely disguise yourself as people you've killed (sorry, people who "die near you"). The ability to use your Bardic Inspiration to add bonus damage to your own attacks also makes Whispers bards stronger than average in direct combat.
Third: Rogue, Assassin (PHB) or Swashbuckler (XGtE) archetype. Most players don't realize, but Rogues are actually the best class in the game. We already talked about how Expertise is good, but with Reliable Talent and Expertise together, you literally can't roll below a 20? That's gotta be a mistake; definitely don't let the developers know about that one. Now some folks are gonna tell you Rogues aren't good in a fight, but have you seen that Sneak Attack damage? Just make Stealth one of your Expertises, Bonus Action Hide every turn (oops, all 20s!) and deal literally Fireball-level damage with a light crossbow. It's basically criminal. Speaking of criminals, pick the Assassin archetype if you want to make the College of Whispers Bard look like a chump (Oh, people get to roll to see through your disguise? Skill issue) or pick Swashbuckler if you want to make Charisma a combat stat (also gives you the ability to actually, mechanically Charm people with Persuasion checks. Magic? Nah, you're just that good). The Mastermind (XGtE) archetype gets honorable mention for having access to ranged Help as a Bonus Action and the ability to force your DM to tell you what NPCs' stats are, but I wouldn't take it over the other options unless you expect to reach level 17 (at which point the Mastermind becomes immune to truth).
Hopefully one of those speaks to you. Obviously there are other ways to do what you want but I think these are some of the most mechanically robust.
Thank you for your ideas. So there are countless builds. Bards are not my favorite class to be honest. I dont like to be a support and for this build is not helpfull either. The other ideas looks pretty good. Sorcerer makes sense, while warlock would give me a goal. about the rogue and ranger build it is a good idea, but after i looked at that i am not really sure this is what i searched for.
Now i am confused. You say to all of these classes, that this is the best.
To the first build:
Sounds good. I have heard good things about warlocks, but i never played them till now. maybe this is my chance to try one, but i will still consider other options first before deciding.
Second option:
I am not a fan of being a support. So sadly no.
Third option:
We have no flanking rule in the game, so the sneak attack gets debuffed pretty heavily. DM decided on that. About not failing a throw easily would be good. Sadly being a sneaky guy upfront in battle like this, does not match the personality.
Go Arcane Trickster/Hexblade multiclass.
Level 1 go Rogue and grab expertise in deception and persuasion.
Level 2 go Hexblade for your offensive abilities like Eldritch Blast and Green Flame Blade
Level 3-9 go back to Rogue and subclass into Arcane Trickster. Use your ASIs to max out CHA and also grab expertise in sleight of hand.
The rest of the build is up to you but at this point you have a smooth talking mini caster that has decent damage in both ranged or melee. You also possess an invisible Mage Hand to pickpocket or plant evidence with. If you had a odd CHA score I would recommend the Telekinetic feat. While you can already make your Mage Hand invisible from the Arcane Trickster subclass, the ability to cast it without verbal or somatic components is a great addition especially if you want to do some shady business in a crowded place.
Ok, if you like Sorcerer then:
Divine Soul Sorcerer
Race: Half Elf
Divine Magic: Evil
Feats: Fey Touched (Dissonant Whispers + Misty Step), Telepathic (Detect Thoughts), Telekinetic (Mage Hand)
Metamagic: Subtle Spell, Empowered Spell, Quickened Spell
Spells:
Fire Bolt, Friends, Mage Hand, Mind Sliver, Ray of Frost, Thaumaturgy
Command, Dissonant Whispers, Inflict Wounds, Mage Armour, Shield
Detect Thoughts, Misty Step, Tasha's Mind Whip
Counterspell, Enemies Abound, Fireball
Greater Invisibility (Polymorph is also a decent option)
Animate Objects, Summon Celestial, Telekinesis
Mental Prison
Reverse Gravity
Theme: you were born of divinity and everyone expected you to be their righteous savior, but you realized they were just using you as an excuse to continue to be selfish & greedy and refusing to solve their own problems. Well, if they wanted to use you, you would learn to use them instead. Turning neighbour upon neighbour and tricking the fools into doing the exact opposite of what would actually solve their problems you left a trail of chaos and destruction in your wake as you wandered the world looking for others who saw the hypocrisy of the world as you do...
Sorry, that was just a bit of a joke. Any class can be "the best" if it's one you like to play.
Three additional points on the Rogue's Sneak Attack: I've never played in a game with flanking, but activating Sneak Attack is still pretty straightforward.
1) You get advantage on any attack you make while unseen by your target. So if you Hide as your Bonus Action, and they don't find you before your next turn, you can attack with advantage and use Sneak Attack. This is the usual Rogue combat loop; Attack, Hide, repeat.
2) If you don't have advantage on an attack roll, you can still activate Sneak Attack if one of your allies is within 5 feet of the target. That's not flanking, it's just how Sneak Attack works. But if your DM still bans that, you have a third option.
3) As a Swashbuckler, you can use your Sneak Attack on a creature as long as you're within 5 ft of the target, no other creatures are within 5 ft of you, and you don't have Disadvantage on the attack. This frees up your Bonus Action to Disengage, so you can run in, hit hard, and then dip out without getting hit in return. It's very flashy and heroic looking, but actually pretty safe.
@ThelonelyMagi
This actually sound fun, because you can actually do something without your party knowing. I'll consider this option as well. Thank you
Well this sounds fun. This is a fun way as well. Like having clerics to misguide everyone but then still being a sorcerer.
I thought that flanking is a common rule that people use to make the use of movement more important and boost the rogue heavily. But still like i said, i think as rogue only build you dont really have a good chance to play an innocent guy, because you are actively sneaking around and attacking from the shadows.
Flanking is a separate, optional rule that I believe gives advantage to attacks when you and your allies are in certain positions; I'm not sure exactly how it works, I've never used it. Sneak Attack is explicitly allowed to be activated when you attack a creature that is also within 5 feet of one of your allies; this isn't part of the optional flanking rules, it's part of how Sneak Attack works all the time.
But you're right, it doesn't sound like Rogue is what you're looking for anyway. It sounds like Sorcerer and Warlock both appeal to you, so I encourage you to go with one of those.
Eloquence Bard:
Natural High Charisma, Expertise, unfailing Deception and persuation (can not roll lower then 10). Unsettling Word (as a bonus you give a creature a malus to their Saves equal to your bardic inspiration), lots of illusions and charm spells, grab Silvery Barbs and Misty Step with Fey Touched feat.
Downside is the lack of defence, so grabbing a second class for medium armor may be good. (Hexblade works great, but one lvl in Cleric, Fighter or Artificer work too.
Personally i would go 1lvl Artificer and 12 lvl Bard. You still can get 7th lvl spell slots and use your Magical Secrets to pick.
Attack: [roll]3d20dl2+6[/roll] Damage: [roll](if([roll:-1:critical], =0, 1d8, 2{1d8}.expand()))+4[/roll] Sneakattack: [roll](if([roll:-2:critical], =0, 2d6, 2{2d6}.expand()))[/roll]I am sorry that i didnt reply till now. I had some personal problems that i finally solved.
I want to thank everyone for their answer. There were multiple good ideas for such a build.
I decided now on building the sorcerer build. But again thanks to everyone. Hope this thread will help others that have the same idea as build as well.