Is multi classing worse then just using those lvls for your base class. The reason I’m asking this is because my DM keeps saying that my build is way worse then it would be if I just put my levels all in.
There’s not really an objective way to answer that. The first question is, are you having fun? If so, none of the rest matters much. The second question is, what are you trying to do? Did you have a specific goal you were shooting for and did the m/c let you reach that goal.
For me, personally, I don’t m/c. It’s not fun for me. But in this case, we can see, if you’d gone straight EK, you’d have one more spell known, you’d have a feat, a failed save re-roll, and you’d be able to attack with a cantrip and also get a BA melee attack. In exchange, you got a couple extra cantrips from warlock, a couple invocations, a couple spells that refresh on a short rest, and a sneak attack die and skill expertise from rogue. It’s tough to weigh which is better.
But the bigger thing is you were probably pretty MAD. If you’re a straight fighter, or even a fighter/rogue, you can dump cha, but for this you needed at least a 13. And I’m going to guess you’re a dex fighter, so there’s a 13 there. And you don’t need but really want a good int for EK. So the bigger problem is needing so many different attack stats — dex for melee, cha for warlock spells, int for EK spells. I’d guess you’re probably spread pretty thin, and none of your to-hit bonuses or save DCs are very high. They’re probably ok, just not where they could be if you’d focused.
This can happen sometimes a player wants their character to be able to do a little of everything. But it’s important to remember you’re on a team, it can often be better to focus. Be very good at one thing, and when the time comes you get to shine. If you’re the second best at everything, there’s always someone else who makes the check, so it’s never your time.
I think it is about a couple things (and excuse the way I think, some of the terminology might be wrong/Confusing)
Your first priority should be the enjoyment of people at the table (Including, but not limited to yourself).
Multiclassing, I feel makes a character "Wider" in abilities, but "Shallower". This means (to me) that you are trading Powerful abilities for weaker and less focused abilities, but this does not mean that it is bad. Sometimes that will make for a more enjoyable character, sometimes it will not. Also, due to the nature of the class/level system some different levels will create different effects for the same character (in other words what is true at level 5 might not be at level 6)
So, let's spend a minute looking at your character (no judgement). You would have been a level 9 Eldrick Knight without the dips.
This would get you if you had stayed a Fighter/Eldrick Knight
1 Wizard spell known, 1 First level slot, 2 Second level slots, second level spells
Ability to cast a cantrip and make a bonus normal attack
Ability Score/Feat increase
Indomitable fighter trait (reroll a failed saving throw/per long rest)
+3 HP (on average
You gain
2 Expertise
1 skill (assuming you multiclassed INTO rogue) and Thieves tool Proficiency
+1d6 Sneak Attack Damage
Thieves Cant language
+2 Cantrips/+3 1st level warlock spells known
2 Invocations and a communication ability
One second level spell slot (Above Eldrick knight solo), but no second level spells (upcasting only :) )
So there you go, is what you are gaining worth what you are losing (often postponing)? I would say yes. Is everyone at the table enjoying themselves however I think is the more important question...
One amendment, You are splitting your spellcasting between Int/Char so depending on how your attributes are...I might of gone Wizard instead of warlock to keep everything under the INT attribute...
In general, multiclassing a full spellcaster (wizard, bard, cleric, druid) is worse, but multiclassing a martial (fighter, rogue, barbarian) can be better. However, the big difference is that you can make mistakes MCing and end up worse than just going straight class, whereas if you just go straight classed you'll end up a decently powerful character.
For instance if I take your build: lvl 6 eldritch knight, lvl 2 the great old one warlock, and lvl 1 rogue,
If you have a 18 DEX, 16 INT, and 13 CHA, then if you are using Eldritch Blast from Warlock as your ranged attacks, then you have a bad build, you'd be much better off using a Longbow for ranged attacks. If you took a spell like Thunderwave via Warlock you again have a bad build, you should have taken it via EK so you use your INT for the save rather than your CHA. Similarly, if you use a STR-based weapon and never get your sneak attack dice, then you've got a bad build. But if you took Hex, Mage Hand, Minor Illusion, and Detect Magic from warlock then it's a perfectly good build.
However, as those above mentioned it is perfectly fine to play a "bad build" if you are having fun and it isn't causing problems for the other people at the table.
In Shadowrun I played a runner named Backup. He was a very fun character, and he is exactly what you describe, not the best at anything, but competent at everything. The catch is you need to be intending to play that type of character. I did not take the glory from other characters, but I also was never not useful. His day to day alias was Jack Trader
Is multi classing worse then just using those lvls for your base class. The reason I’m asking this is because my DM keeps saying that my build is way worse then it would be if I just put my levels all in.
The #1 rule for whether a character build is working is "are you having fun playing it?". But I do see some potential aspects of your build that might be complicating things. The most obvious is that by combining Eldritch Knight and Warlock, you have two different spellcasting abilities to deal with. From just a bookkeeping perspective, it means tracking which spell list you're casting from each time and using the right Spell Save DC or Spell Attack Bonus. It's entirely possible to create a build like yours that focuses on spells which do not need a high spellcasting ability score to be effective. Spells like Booming Blade, Armor Of Agathys, Hex, etc. work the same no matter what your ability scores are. Something like Green-Flame Blade's damage will be affected, but not it's chance of success.
Mechanically, the thing to ask yourself when multiclassing is whether the low-level abilities from your new class(es) are worth giving up the high-level abilities from your original class. For example, you've put yourself farther away from getting that third attack at Fighter Level 11. And from a role-playing perspective, why did your character go in this new direction?
My initial cold take on this build is that this is a character the player is trying to "go wide" with- possibly to reflect a somewhat convoluted backstory or character choices- and this hodge-podge of levels is undercutting your main class (Eldritch Knight). Obviously I don't know your actual situation, but that's my initial read based on the class distribution. The 1 level dip into Rogue in particular is what I tend to think of as a common mistake in multiclassing, particularly before 3rd tier; if you want to skill monkey as a class that doesn't do it by default then the Skilled, Skill Expert, or Prodigy (if you meet the pre-req or the DM agrees to handwave it) feats are all better picks than 1 level of Rogue imo since it doesn't disrupt your main class progression, and Sneak Attack isn't really worth it for a shallow dip imo. The Warlock dip isn't so bad since Warlocks are more front-loaded with stuff you can't imitate with feats; it's not a bad way to boost your spellcasting utility, but I wouldn't take any more levels in it for a while after those first 2. You're missing out on 2nd level spells right now, and that's a big bump in power. Maybe look at another level of Warlock after you've got 11 levels of EK; at that point you'll have both a major feature to support the blended martial/spellcasting build and your second Extra Attack, which is the bread and butter of a Fighter. As a personal take, I'd trade in that level of Rogue if I could for Fighter, and then just stick with Fighter for a little bit like I just said. Or just keep doing what you're doing if this build is working for you.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I've multiclassed twice, both from a Martial Spellcasting class to a full caster. The most recent was Ranger 8, Druid 10. he went Ranger 1-8 and then full druid after for spell slots while maintaining his martial abilities. Circle of the Stars (Dragon) got me an almost unbreakable concentration check.
The other was a Dex Paladin/Wizard(Diviner) I had a Headband of Intellect for the Wizard side. He was very deadly, and with Metamagic Adept and quicken spell I could slip someone Hold Person, make them fail their save and auto-crit in melee with smites immediately after. He went 13Pal, 7 Wizard though I mixed the levels up between classes while advancing. Not the best for ASI/Feats but it got me 4th level spells on each side. The Wizard also gave me a ton of spell slots for smites.
Both cases I used the second class to greatly enhance the first class.
I enjoy multiclassing, but I enjoy playing rangers also - both are complex characters with lots of options. As others have pointed out there are lots of traps in multi-classing that you need to learn to avoid. Single class characters can be very powerful but that comes as a result of being highly focused on their “one thing”. m/c characters go about things somewhat differently - they have multiple tools and select the best one for the present situation. (example: my current character is a ranger2/bard3 we were attacked by at least 10 crawling hands from several directions. The pure fighter (a gunner) was able to take out a bunch in front of us but more were attacking from behind. Instead of using my TWF and maybe getting one or two I used my net slowing 5 of them down enough that they couldn’t attack that round allowing the gunner to deal with them the next round.)
Is multi classing worse then just using those lvls for your base class. The reason I’m asking this is because my DM keeps saying that my build is way worse then it would be if I just put my levels all in.
Just for a bit of context. I’m playing a lvl 6 eldritch knight, lvl 2 the great old one warlock, and lvl 1 rouge
There’s not really an objective way to answer that. The first question is, are you having fun? If so, none of the rest matters much.
The second question is, what are you trying to do? Did you have a specific goal you were shooting for and did the m/c let you reach that goal.
For me, personally, I don’t m/c. It’s not fun for me. But in this case, we can see, if you’d gone straight EK, you’d have one more spell known, you’d have a feat, a failed save re-roll, and you’d be able to attack with a cantrip and also get a BA melee attack.
In exchange, you got a couple extra cantrips from warlock, a couple invocations, a couple spells that refresh on a short rest, and a sneak attack die and skill expertise from rogue. It’s tough to weigh which is better.
But the bigger thing is you were probably pretty MAD. If you’re a straight fighter, or even a fighter/rogue, you can dump cha, but for this you needed at least a 13. And I’m going to guess you’re a dex fighter, so there’s a 13 there. And you don’t need but really want a good int for EK. So the bigger problem is needing so many different attack stats — dex for melee, cha for warlock spells, int for EK spells. I’d guess you’re probably spread pretty thin, and none of your to-hit bonuses or save DCs are very high. They’re probably ok, just not where they could be if you’d focused.
This can happen sometimes a player wants their character to be able to do a little of everything. But it’s important to remember you’re on a team, it can often be better to focus. Be very good at one thing, and when the time comes you get to shine. If you’re the second best at everything, there’s always someone else who makes the check, so it’s never your time.
I think it is about a couple things (and excuse the way I think, some of the terminology might be wrong/Confusing)
Your first priority should be the enjoyment of people at the table (Including, but not limited to yourself).
Multiclassing, I feel makes a character "Wider" in abilities, but "Shallower". This means (to me) that you are trading Powerful abilities for weaker and less focused abilities, but this does not mean that it is bad. Sometimes that will make for a more enjoyable character, sometimes it will not. Also, due to the nature of the class/level system some different levels will create different effects for the same character (in other words what is true at level 5 might not be at level 6)
So, let's spend a minute looking at your character (no judgement). You would have been a level 9 Eldrick Knight without the dips.
This would get you if you had stayed a Fighter/Eldrick Knight
1 First level slot, 2 Second level slots, second level spellsYou gain
So there you go, is what you are gaining worth what you are losing (often postponing)? I would say yes. Is everyone at the table enjoying themselves however I think is the more important question...
One amendment, You are splitting your spellcasting between Int/Char so depending on how your attributes are...I might of gone Wizard instead of warlock to keep everything under the INT attribute...
In general, multiclassing a full spellcaster (wizard, bard, cleric, druid) is worse, but multiclassing a martial (fighter, rogue, barbarian) can be better. However, the big difference is that you can make mistakes MCing and end up worse than just going straight class, whereas if you just go straight classed you'll end up a decently powerful character.
For instance if I take your build: lvl 6 eldritch knight, lvl 2 the great old one warlock, and lvl 1 rogue,
If you have a 18 DEX, 16 INT, and 13 CHA, then if you are using Eldritch Blast from Warlock as your ranged attacks, then you have a bad build, you'd be much better off using a Longbow for ranged attacks. If you took a spell like Thunderwave via Warlock you again have a bad build, you should have taken it via EK so you use your INT for the save rather than your CHA. Similarly, if you use a STR-based weapon and never get your sneak attack dice, then you've got a bad build. But if you took Hex, Mage Hand, Minor Illusion, and Detect Magic from warlock then it's a perfectly good build.
However, as those above mentioned it is perfectly fine to play a "bad build" if you are having fun and it isn't causing problems for the other people at the table.
In Shadowrun I played a runner named Backup. He was a very fun character, and he is exactly what you describe, not the best at anything, but competent at everything. The catch is you need to be intending to play that type of character. I did not take the glory from other characters, but I also was never not useful. His day to day alias was Jack Trader
The #1 rule for whether a character build is working is "are you having fun playing it?". But I do see some potential aspects of your build that might be complicating things. The most obvious is that by combining Eldritch Knight and Warlock, you have two different spellcasting abilities to deal with. From just a bookkeeping perspective, it means tracking which spell list you're casting from each time and using the right Spell Save DC or Spell Attack Bonus. It's entirely possible to create a build like yours that focuses on spells which do not need a high spellcasting ability score to be effective. Spells like Booming Blade, Armor Of Agathys, Hex, etc. work the same no matter what your ability scores are. Something like Green-Flame Blade's damage will be affected, but not it's chance of success.
Mechanically, the thing to ask yourself when multiclassing is whether the low-level abilities from your new class(es) are worth giving up the high-level abilities from your original class. For example, you've put yourself farther away from getting that third attack at Fighter Level 11. And from a role-playing perspective, why did your character go in this new direction?
My initial cold take on this build is that this is a character the player is trying to "go wide" with- possibly to reflect a somewhat convoluted backstory or character choices- and this hodge-podge of levels is undercutting your main class (Eldritch Knight). Obviously I don't know your actual situation, but that's my initial read based on the class distribution. The 1 level dip into Rogue in particular is what I tend to think of as a common mistake in multiclassing, particularly before 3rd tier; if you want to skill monkey as a class that doesn't do it by default then the Skilled, Skill Expert, or Prodigy (if you meet the pre-req or the DM agrees to handwave it) feats are all better picks than 1 level of Rogue imo since it doesn't disrupt your main class progression, and Sneak Attack isn't really worth it for a shallow dip imo. The Warlock dip isn't so bad since Warlocks are more front-loaded with stuff you can't imitate with feats; it's not a bad way to boost your spellcasting utility, but I wouldn't take any more levels in it for a while after those first 2. You're missing out on 2nd level spells right now, and that's a big bump in power. Maybe look at another level of Warlock after you've got 11 levels of EK; at that point you'll have both a major feature to support the blended martial/spellcasting build and your second Extra Attack, which is the bread and butter of a Fighter. As a personal take, I'd trade in that level of Rogue if I could for Fighter, and then just stick with Fighter for a little bit like I just said. Or just keep doing what you're doing if this build is working for you.
I'd express it thusly:
In general, multiclassing makes the character weaker.
Specifically, for certain confined effects, multiclassing can make the character substantially stronger.
And there are exceptions to this.
Edit: Also, most builds I've seen are level 20 - making them, to my personal experience, entirely theoretical.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I've multiclassed twice, both from a Martial Spellcasting class to a full caster. The most recent was Ranger 8, Druid 10. he went Ranger 1-8 and then full druid after for spell slots while maintaining his martial abilities. Circle of the Stars (Dragon) got me an almost unbreakable concentration check.
The other was a Dex Paladin/Wizard(Diviner) I had a Headband of Intellect for the Wizard side. He was very deadly, and with Metamagic Adept and quicken spell I could slip someone Hold Person, make them fail their save and auto-crit in melee with smites immediately after. He went 13Pal, 7 Wizard though I mixed the levels up between classes while advancing. Not the best for ASI/Feats but it got me 4th level spells on each side. The Wizard also gave me a ton of spell slots for smites.
Both cases I used the second class to greatly enhance the first class.
I enjoy multiclassing, but I enjoy playing rangers also - both are complex characters with lots of options. As others have pointed out there are lots of traps in multi-classing that you need to learn to avoid. Single class characters can be very powerful but that comes as a result of being highly focused on their “one thing”. m/c characters go about things somewhat differently - they have multiple tools and select the best one for the present situation. (example: my current character is a ranger2/bard3 we were attacked by at least 10 crawling hands from several directions. The pure fighter (a gunner) was able to take out a bunch in front of us but more were attacking from behind. Instead of using my TWF and maybe getting one or two I used my net slowing 5 of them down enough that they couldn’t attack that round allowing the gunner to deal with them the next round.)
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
If you think it's fun, if it fits your narrative, there are many reasons to multiclass and not.
Even the powergamer has a reason, it's just some GMs don't like the reason.
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