I'll note that that fighter has neither fighting style nor subclass, and I haven't crunched the numbers enough to be sure if you included the mastery or not, though I think you did.
The only fighter subclass that increases sustained damage is EK, the rest use very limited resource pool, and that's just subbing one attack with a cantrip which is exactly the same as what the Valor Bard can do so I just cancelled them both out. And people wanted unoptimized so I assumed the fighter took Defense or Blindfighting or Interception for their fighting style rather than GWF. And yes WM is included.
They can also take far fewer of those shots than the fighters, which will have been a real handicap over the course of their career.
Common myth, a 12th level bard has 14 hp less than a 12th level fighter all else being equal which is half of one attack if you are expected DC 12 concentration checks.
I'll note that that fighter has neither fighting style nor subclass, and I haven't crunched the numbers enough to be sure if you included the mastery or not, though I think you did.
The only fighter subclass that increases sustained damage is EK, the rest use very limited resource pool, and that's just subbing one attack with a cantrip which is exactly the same as what the Valor Bard can do so I just cancelled them both out.
Champion. It's only .35-.4 damage per hit, but it's not nothing.
Also, the caster's burning resources, but the fighter isn't?
And people wanted unoptimized so I assumed the fighter took Defense or Blindfighting or Interception for their fighting style rather than GWF. And yes WM is included.
"Not optimized" is not the same thing as "pessimized".
They can also take far fewer of those shots than the fighters, which will have been a real handicap over the course of their career.
Common myth, a 12th level bard has 14 hp less than a 12th level fighter all else being equal which is half of one attack if you are expected DC 12 concentration checks.
It was a wizard at the time of comment, which is 28, at equal con. The fighter is also going to have higher con, both because they don't have to build for a caster stat as well as a fighter stat, and because they have another stat bump. They may also have Tough, but even without, they're a lot more durable than the CME front-line caster.
Fighters IME rarely have a higher con, true they sometimes do - especially if they stick to just ASIs rather than feats, but often not because lots of Fighters don't want to dump WIS because that leaves them super vulnerable to a ton of crowd control effects. Plus some Fighter subclasses are MAD now - True Strike uses your casting mod for the attack roll so you can't dump INT as an EK if you intend to use True Strike, Psi Warrior also abilities that use your Intelligence for the DC so you don't want to completely dump INT as one either. Battlemaster has several maneuvers that use/synergize with mental stats so you may want at least a 12 in one of them to get the most out of it. Sure they could get Tough as a background feat but so could a melee-focused caster. But even at 28 extra HP per day that's only 1 attack's worth or half of an AOE, so the caster can compensate with one Shield spell or one Absorb Elements. CME makes melee-focused casters better martials than martials are, which in my books is a problem but if your table is fine with it and happy to play all-caster parties then go for it keep CME at your table
PS Defense and Blindsight at least are very common choices for fighting styles among my non-optimizer players and even among some of the optimizers. I just built a two-handed weapon-using ranger that took Defense.
Valor Bard - 12, CME (5th) - 2x shortswords, ASIs only = 3 attacks for 45.3 DPR Fighter - 12, Greatsword, ASIs only = 28.6 DPR
Level 12 Battlemaster Fighter will do 56 average damage on Round 1 and 32 average damage on subsequent rounds. Level 12 Valor Bard with 14 Con has 81.5 average HP. Wizard would only have 68.5.
Valor Bard - 12, CME (5th) - 2x shortswords, ASIs only = 3 attacks for 45.3 DPR Fighter - 12, Greatsword, ASIs only = 28.6 DPR
Level 12 Battlemaster Fighter will do 56 average damage on Round 1 and 32 average damage on subsequent rounds. Level 12 Valor Bard with 14 Con has 81.5 average HP. Wizard would only have 68.5.
Valor Bard actual would do 49,5 dpR ( w/o MC ) + with 60% hit chance, dex 18 if he takes the half-feat of ( weapon master & wields 2 scimitars ) he would do : 68,4
Sorry but what are you two contributing to this discussion? The general point is at this point in the discussion is that a gish-caster + CME deals roughly 50% more damage than an equivalent martial character per round, and whether or not this is good or not to include in the game.
Do you have some argument or opinion on either of those points you'd like to contribute?
PS Everyone make different assumptions when calculating DPR, so please include your calculations for both builds to demonstrate the difference or lack of difference between them under your particular set of assumptions.
Sorry but what are you two contributing to this discussion? The general point is at this point in the discussion is that a gish-caster + CME deals roughly 50% more damage than an equivalent martial character per round, and whether or not this is good or not to include in the game.
Do you have some argument or opinion on either of those points you'd like to contribute?
The point is that it doesn't matter if their buffed DPR is higher over time. The average combat lasts 3-4 rounds and if you catch them unprepared or surprised they die on round 2 without external support.
Sorry but what are you two contributing to this discussion? The general point is at this point in the discussion is that a gish-caster + CME deals roughly 50% more damage than an equivalent martial character per round, and whether or not this is good or not to include in the game.
Do you have some argument or opinion on either of those points you'd like to contribute?
The point is that it doesn't matter if their buffed DPR is higher over time. The average combat lasts 3-4 rounds and if you catch them unprepared or surprised they die on round 2 without external support.
Any character dies on round 2 without external support if the encounter is balanced for a party of 4. A caster generally takes significantly less damage than a martial because of Absorb Elements and Shield so their lower hit points doesn't mean they have lower survivability. So I still don't understand the point? If the "solution" is the DM just focus-fire the bard well now the Bard is a much much better tank for the party than any other character because they've just discovered the every-elusive key to getting the enemies to attack you.
How would the ruling be for an evocation wizard casting Eldritch blast while concentrating on conjure minor elementals and say attacking enemies within the 15 foot radius?
Even if they miss with the attack the enemy would take half damage(potent cantrip). Would you guys rule it as half damage or the cantrip only it would conjure minor elemental also proc in this scenario?
How would the ruling be for an evocation wizard casting Eldritch blast while concentrating on conjure minor elementals and say attacking enemies within the 15 foot radius?
Even if they miss with the attack the enemy would take half damage(potent cantrip). Would you guys rule it as half damage or the cantrip only it would conjure minor elemental also proc in this scenario?
CME specifically requires you to hit, so it does nothing.
While CME's damage is part of the attack's damage, so is doubled for critical hits, that does not mean it's coming from the cantrip.
I don't agreed with all the people saying CME is broken. Let me explain!
At first, to make it broken, you need a very specific build which usually require multiclassing. To make a real comparison, we need people who plays this build on a long period of time and compare it to what the others can do. D&D isn't just a formula to calculate your max DPR.
Also, you can't compare a combo requiring high level spell slot, which are limited, to a martial characters who can do his things all the time. If the DPR was the same with or without ressources, less people would play a caster character. Or some people compare CME from PHB 2024 to spells that are in other books (ex: spirit shroud)... Technically, you can't decide what books you can use, that's your DM decision, so why would you even bother comparing those spells. If you want to compare CME to an other spell, please do with the 2024 spell list.
Also, nobody seems to even think about the enemies capabilities. Let's say you didn't have the time to cast CME and whatever else with a bonus action before a fight start. So, you spend your whole 1st turn casting your super uber CME spells combo and then, a enemy caster use dispel magic against you. You just lost your whole 1st turn using high spell slots for nothing and they ain't coming back before a long rest. Also, your buff are gone, are you gonna use your whole 2nd turn to cast them again with lower spell slot? If you do, it's 2 turn completely waste. This is one possible scenario over many. You could be paralyzed, incapacited, lose your concentration, be counterspell, fall asleep, blinded, silenced, etc.
There's many solution around the table to mitigate those CME build without actually nerfing the spell. Nerfing the spell would make it even worst Circle of the moon ( I think it would have no impact on EK with or without a nerf). A solution could be to not allow the specific Fighter/valor/warlock multiclass build. Or decide that the bard features that allow him to replace one attack with a cantrip has to use a cantrip from his class or from his magical feature.
The CME says you need to hit with your attack. So if you miss as an evocation mage, they take half DMG of your cantrip but nothing else, because you actually didn't "hit".
The only fighter subclass that increases sustained damage is EK, the rest use very limited resource pool, and that's just subbing one attack with a cantrip which is exactly the same as what the Valor Bard can do so I just cancelled them both out. And people wanted unoptimized so I assumed the fighter took Defense or Blindfighting or Interception for their fighting style rather than GWF. And yes WM is included.
Common myth, a 12th level bard has 14 hp less than a 12th level fighter all else being equal which is half of one attack if you are expected DC 12 concentration checks.
Champion. It's only .35-.4 damage per hit, but it's not nothing.
Also, the caster's burning resources, but the fighter isn't?
"Not optimized" is not the same thing as "pessimized".
It was a wizard at the time of comment, which is 28, at equal con. The fighter is also going to have higher con, both because they don't have to build for a caster stat as well as a fighter stat, and because they have another stat bump. They may also have Tough, but even without, they're a lot more durable than the CME front-line caster.
Fighters IME rarely have a higher con, true they sometimes do - especially if they stick to just ASIs rather than feats, but often not because lots of Fighters don't want to dump WIS because that leaves them super vulnerable to a ton of crowd control effects. Plus some Fighter subclasses are MAD now - True Strike uses your casting mod for the attack roll so you can't dump INT as an EK if you intend to use True Strike, Psi Warrior also abilities that use your Intelligence for the DC so you don't want to completely dump INT as one either. Battlemaster has several maneuvers that use/synergize with mental stats so you may want at least a 12 in one of them to get the most out of it. Sure they could get Tough as a background feat but so could a melee-focused caster. But even at 28 extra HP per day that's only 1 attack's worth or half of an AOE, so the caster can compensate with one Shield spell or one Absorb Elements. CME makes melee-focused casters better martials than martials are, which in my books is a problem but if your table is fine with it and happy to play all-caster parties then go for it keep CME at your table
PS Defense and Blindsight at least are very common choices for fighting styles among my non-optimizer players and even among some of the optimizers. I just built a two-handed weapon-using ranger that took Defense.
Level 12 Battlemaster Fighter will do 56 average damage on Round 1 and 32 average damage on subsequent rounds. Level 12 Valor Bard with 14 Con has 81.5 average HP. Wizard would only have 68.5.
Valor Bard actual would do 49,5 dpR ( w/o MC ) + with 60% hit chance, dex 18
if he takes the half-feat of ( weapon master & wields 2 scimitars ) he would do : 68,4
Sorry but what are you two contributing to this discussion? The general point is at this point in the discussion is that a gish-caster + CME deals roughly 50% more damage than an equivalent martial character per round, and whether or not this is good or not to include in the game.
Do you have some argument or opinion on either of those points you'd like to contribute?
PS Everyone make different assumptions when calculating DPR, so please include your calculations for both builds to demonstrate the difference or lack of difference between them under your particular set of assumptions.
The point is that it doesn't matter if their buffed DPR is higher over time. The average combat lasts 3-4 rounds and if you catch them unprepared or surprised they die on round 2 without external support.
Any character dies on round 2 without external support if the encounter is balanced for a party of 4. A caster generally takes significantly less damage than a martial because of Absorb Elements and Shield so their lower hit points doesn't mean they have lower survivability. So I still don't understand the point? If the "solution" is the DM just focus-fire the bard well now the Bard is a much much better tank for the party than any other character because they've just discovered the every-elusive key to getting the enemies to attack you.
How would the ruling be for an evocation wizard casting Eldritch blast while concentrating on conjure minor elementals and say attacking enemies within the 15 foot radius?
Even if they miss with the attack the enemy would take half damage(potent cantrip). Would you guys rule it as half damage or the cantrip only it would conjure minor elemental also proc in this scenario?
CME specifically requires you to hit, so it does nothing.
While CME's damage is part of the attack's damage, so is doubled for critical hits, that does not mean it's coming from the cantrip.
I don't agreed with all the people saying CME is broken. Let me explain!
At first, to make it broken, you need a very specific build which usually require multiclassing. To make a real comparison, we need people who plays this build on a long period of time and compare it to what the others can do. D&D isn't just a formula to calculate your max DPR.
Also, you can't compare a combo requiring high level spell slot, which are limited, to a martial characters who can do his things all the time. If the DPR was the same with or without ressources, less people would play a caster character. Or some people compare CME from PHB 2024 to spells that are in other books (ex: spirit shroud)... Technically, you can't decide what books you can use, that's your DM decision, so why would you even bother comparing those spells. If you want to compare CME to an other spell, please do with the 2024 spell list.
Also, nobody seems to even think about the enemies capabilities. Let's say you didn't have the time to cast CME and whatever else with a bonus action before a fight start. So, you spend your whole 1st turn casting your super uber CME spells combo and then, a enemy caster use dispel magic against you. You just lost your whole 1st turn using high spell slots for nothing and they ain't coming back before a long rest. Also, your buff are gone, are you gonna use your whole 2nd turn to cast them again with lower spell slot? If you do, it's 2 turn completely waste. This is one possible scenario over many. You could be paralyzed, incapacited, lose your concentration, be counterspell, fall asleep, blinded, silenced, etc.
There's many solution around the table to mitigate those CME build without actually nerfing the spell. Nerfing the spell would make it even worst Circle of the moon ( I think it would have no impact on EK with or without a nerf). A solution could be to not allow the specific Fighter/valor/warlock multiclass build. Or decide that the bard features that allow him to replace one attack with a cantrip has to use a cantrip from his class or from his magical feature.
The CME says you need to hit with your attack. So if you miss as an evocation mage, they take half DMG of your cantrip but nothing else, because you actually didn't "hit".