Per PHB 2024 page 369 a simple or martial weapon wielded contrary to its design counts as an improvised weapon- we are given two examples of this: A ranged weapon used in melee, and a melee weapon without thrown property being thrown. (Both changes to the weapons "Properties". Unlike 2014 these are not exclusive ways to wield a weapon contrary to its design)
Also a DM may rule that if a weapon resembles a simple or martial weapon it may function as that weapon and use that weapons rules.
As we have been given two examples of weapon "Properties" changing counting as wielding a weapon contrary to it's design, could we then extrapolate and use- say a two handed weapon in one hand and count this as an improvised use of the weapon (resulting in d4 damage of the weapon's type, but potentially still using the weapons rules such as mastery properties)
If this is possible, could it also be possible to use a melee weapon and make use of dexterity per Finesse rather than strength (resulting in a d4 damage weapon) as Finesse is also a weapon property? This could be fun for a tavern brawler rogue improvising attacks with all sorts of weapons (and DM allowing, getting a greater range of Mastery properties).
Lastly- could I use a pistol in one hand (albeit only doing d4 damage- which kind of defeats the use of a pistol) as a light weapon and a scimitar in the other as god (and history) intended?
Per PHB 2024 page 369 a simple or martial weapon wielded contrary to its design counts as an improvised weapon- we are given two examples of this: A ranged weapon used in melee, and a melee weapon without thrown property being thrown. (Both changes to the weapons "Properties". Unlike 2014 these are not exclusive ways to wield a weapon contrary to its design)
Also a DM may rule that if a weapon resembles a simple or martial weapon it may function as that weapon and use that weapons rules.
As we have been given two examples of weapon "Properties" changing counting as wielding a weapon contrary to it's design, could we then extrapolate and use- say a two handed weapon in one hand and count this as an improvised use of the weapon (resulting in d4 damage of the weapon's type, but potentially still using the weapons rules such as mastery properties)
If this is possible, could it also be possible to use a melee weapon and make use of dexterity per Finesse rather than strength (resulting in a d4 damage weapon) as Finesse is also a weapon property? This could be fun for a tavern brawler rogue improvising attacks with all sorts of weapons (and DM allowing, getting a greater range of Mastery properties).
Lastly- could I use a pistol in one hand (albeit only doing d4 damage- which kind of defeats the use of a pistol) as a light weapon and a scimitar in the other as god (and history) intended?
I think it's fair to allow using a two-handed weapon in one hand to count as an improvised weapon. I would not go so far as to allow the use of weapon mastery properties in that case; since these are things you need specific training in to do, it seems pretty clear those should only function if the weapon is used in the proper way.
I'm not sure I follow the rest of this; it sounds like you're suggesting that someone could add arbitrary properties like Finesse or Light to a weapon just by treating it as an improvised weapon, which seems way beyond reasonable.
I would put forth that using the Mastery properties of a weapon is using the weapon more in line with the Weapon's design than normal Proficiency allows, and as a result, using the Weapon Mastery property is mutually exclusive with using the weapon as an Improvised Weapon. If you deliberately decide to use a purpose-designed tool badly, it should be worse at doing what you want to do with it.
I'd also take the tack that Weapon Properties are inherent to the physical design of the weapon. You can't improvise them into or out of a weapon other than those mentioned. Throwing a Greatsword is possible. Smacking someone with your Crossbow is possible. There may exist in the setting Greataxes that do have the Light and Finesse properties, but the one in the PHB Weapons section is a bog-standard typical one that won't get those properties under mundane circumstances.
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🎵I'm on top of the world, looking down on creation, wreaking death and devastation with my mind.
As the power that I've found erupts freely from the ground, I will cackle from the top of the world.🎵
Per PHB 2024 page 369 a simple or martial weapon wielded contrary to its design counts as an improvised weapon- we are given two examples of this: A ranged weapon used in melee, and a melee weapon without thrown property being thrown. (Both changes to the weapons "Properties". Unlike 2014 these are not exclusive ways to wield a weapon contrary to its design)
Also a DM may rule that if a weapon resembles a simple or martial weapon it may function as that weapon and use that weapons rules.
As we have been given two examples of weapon "Properties" changing counting as wielding a weapon contrary to it's design, could we then extrapolate and use- say a two handed weapon in one hand and count this as an improvised use of the weapon (resulting in d4 damage of the weapon's type, but potentially still using the weapons rules such as mastery properties)
If this is possible, could it also be possible to use a melee weapon and make use of dexterity per Finesse rather than strength (resulting in a d4 damage weapon) as Finesse is also a weapon property? This could be fun for a tavern brawler rogue improvising attacks with all sorts of weapons (and DM allowing, getting a greater range of Mastery properties).
Lastly- could I use a pistol in one hand (albeit only doing d4 damage- which kind of defeats the use of a pistol) as a light weapon and a scimitar in the other as god (and history) intended?
I think it's fair to allow using a two-handed weapon in one hand to count as an improvised weapon. I would not go so far as to allow the use of weapon mastery properties in that case; since these are things you need specific training in to do, it seems pretty clear those should only function if the weapon is used in the proper way.
I'm not sure I follow the rest of this; it sounds like you're suggesting that someone could add arbitrary properties like Finesse or Light to a weapon just by treating it as an improvised weapon, which seems way beyond reasonable.
Thanks for4 the interesting response. I appreciate it.
Just wanting to clarify, though: Using a two handed weapon in one hand is, rules wise, the same as adding or deleting weapon properties (as is throwing a melee weapon or stabbing someone with an arrow). I am curious why some seem fair and the others seem "beyond reasonable" when it is the same rules transaction (and essentially the same result- i.e. a 1d4 damage weapon).
Per PHB 2024 page 369 a simple or martial weapon wielded contrary to its design counts as an improvised weapon- we are given two examples of this: A ranged weapon used in melee, and a melee weapon without thrown property being thrown. (Both changes to the weapons "Properties". Unlike 2014 these are not exclusive ways to wield a weapon contrary to its design)
Also a DM may rule that if a weapon resembles a simple or martial weapon it may function as that weapon and use that weapons rules.
As we have been given two examples of weapon "Properties" changing counting as wielding a weapon contrary to it's design, could we then extrapolate and use- say a two handed weapon in one hand and count this as an improvised use of the weapon (resulting in d4 damage of the weapon's type, but potentially still using the weapons rules such as mastery properties)
If this is possible, could it also be possible to use a melee weapon and make use of dexterity per Finesse rather than strength (resulting in a d4 damage weapon) as Finesse is also a weapon property? This could be fun for a tavern brawler rogue improvising attacks with all sorts of weapons (and DM allowing, getting a greater range of Mastery properties).
Lastly- could I use a pistol in one hand (albeit only doing d4 damage- which kind of defeats the use of a pistol) as a light weapon and a scimitar in the other as god (and history) intended?
I think it's fair to allow using a two-handed weapon in one hand to count as an improvised weapon. I would not go so far as to allow the use of weapon mastery properties in that case; since these are things you need specific training in to do, it seems pretty clear those should only function if the weapon is used in the proper way.
I'm not sure I follow the rest of this; it sounds like you're suggesting that someone could add arbitrary properties like Finesse or Light to a weapon just by treating it as an improvised weapon, which seems way beyond reasonable.
Using a two handed weapon in one hand is, rules wise, the same as adding or deleting weapon properties (as is throwing a melee weapon or stabbing someone with an arrow). I am curious why some seem fair and the others seem "beyond reasonable" when it is the same rules transaction (and essentially the same result- i.e. a 1d4 damage weapon)
Some seem fair and some seem beyond reasonable because they're different properties that do different things and have different amounts of impact on the mechanics of the weapon.
Notovny said: "I would put forth that using the Mastery properties of a weapon is using the weapon more in line with the Weapon's design than normal Proficiency allows, and as a result, using the Weapon Mastery property is mutually exclusive with using the weapon as an Improvised Weapon. If you deliberately decide to use a purpose-designed tool badly, it should be worse at doing what you want to do with it.
I'd also take the tack that Weapon Properties are inherent to the physical design of the weapon. You can't improvise them into or out of a weapon other than those mentioned. Throwing a Greatsword is possible. Smacking someone with your Crossbow is possible. There may exist in the setting Greataxes that do have the Light and Finesse properties, but the one in the PHB Weapons section is a bog-standard typical one that won't get those properties under mundane circumstances".
Thanks for providing food for thought Notovny.
If weapon properties (such as thrown or melee) are inherent to the design (rather than use) of a weapon and immutable when improvising why can you throw a non thrown weapon or stab with an arrow? Per the rules, it is not about the design of the weapon but the non-standard use of it ( in fact the improvisation rules specifically say use "contrary to design"- which certainly indicates not using the weapon or its properties as standard). If a giant used a human sized great as a light weapon, that would be a non standard use of it but it seems reasonable to me in both a roleplaying and rules context.
If weapon mastery is a quality of the weapon, why then is it mutable and ignored if other things can't be when improvising (according to your logic). Again using the giant with a great axe example- it should be able to cleave with one hand quite effectively.
Also if you decided to tip slash with a rapier to do d4 slashing damage rather than the usual damage type, or bash with an axe etc that would be non standard use that would obviously explicitly change the weapon properties.
The penalty for improvising is base damage of d4 and (usually) lack of proficiency bonus. The (somewhat slim) bonus is flexibility (because you are improvising).
I'm not sure what you are trying to argue. The reason you can use a two handed weapon as a one handed improvised weapon is that it is an object. If you improvise a weapon, it's normal properties don't have an effect. You can't have an improvised weapon with weapon properties.
I'm not sure what you are trying to argue. The reason you can use a two handed weapon as a one handed improvised weapon is that it is an object. If you improvise a weapon, it's normal properties don't have an effect. You can't have an improvised weapon with weapon properties.
*responding to wibbletodeath*
Well put.
If that is the case you have stated it way better than the PHB does.
To be clear I am not trying to argue any specific point- I created this thread to get clarity on what is possible with a rather murky underexamined section of the rules which have changed since 2014 (albeit only slightly).
The only thing I would add though is that improvised weapons cannot have no weapon properties - they are still weapons and have to interact with the system in some way. If they have no weapon properties then they are not a weapon and cannot be used to attack- indeed the improvised weapon rules are there to actually provide weapon properties to "objects". So if you can add thrown weapon property, or melee weapon property (which are examples given) what other weapon properties could you employ or not as an improvised weapon depending on how it is wielded?
Per PHB 2024 page 369 a simple or martial weapon wielded contrary to its design counts as an improvised weapon- we are given two examples of this: A ranged weapon used in melee, and a melee weapon without thrown property being thrown. (Both changes to the weapons "Properties". Unlike 2014 these are not exclusive ways to wield a weapon contrary to its design)
Also a DM may rule that if a weapon resembles a simple or martial weapon it may function as that weapon and use that weapons rules.
As we have been given two examples of weapon "Properties" changing counting as wielding a weapon contrary to it's design, could we then extrapolate and use- say a two handed weapon in one hand and count this as an improvised use of the weapon (resulting in d4 damage of the weapon's type, but potentially still using the weapons rules such as mastery properties)
If this is possible, could it also be possible to use a melee weapon and make use of dexterity per Finesse rather than strength (resulting in a d4 damage weapon) as Finesse is also a weapon property? This could be fun for a tavern brawler rogue improvising attacks with all sorts of weapons (and DM allowing, getting a greater range of Mastery properties).
Lastly- could I use a pistol in one hand (albeit only doing d4 damage- which kind of defeats the use of a pistol) as a light weapon and a scimitar in the other as god (and history) intended?
I think it's fair to allow using a two-handed weapon in one hand to count as an improvised weapon. I would not go so far as to allow the use of weapon mastery properties in that case; since these are things you need specific training in to do, it seems pretty clear those should only function if the weapon is used in the proper way.
I'm not sure I follow the rest of this; it sounds like you're suggesting that someone could add arbitrary properties like Finesse or Light to a weapon just by treating it as an improvised weapon, which seems way beyond reasonable.
Using a two handed weapon in one hand is, rules wise, the same as adding or deleting weapon properties (as is throwing a melee weapon or stabbing someone with an arrow). I am curious why some seem fair and the others seem "beyond reasonable" when it is the same rules transaction (and essentially the same result- i.e. a 1d4 damage weapon)
Some seem fair and some seem beyond reasonable because they're different properties that do different things and have different amounts of impact on the mechanics of the weapon.
I guess what I am looking for is more a consistent rules interpretation than this seems OK or this does not because of feel. I mean, its always OK for a DM to rule in an arbitrary way for reasons of balance or believability any given game or situation, that is the case for any aspect of the game.
The only thing I would add though is that improvised weapons cannot have no weapon properties - they are still weapons and have to interact with the system in some way. If they have no weapon properties then they are not a weapon and cannot be used to attack- indeed the improvised weapon rules are there to actually provide weapon properties to "objects". So if you can add thrown weapon property, or melee weapon property (which are examples given) what other weapon properties could you employ or not as an improvised weapon depending on how it is wielded?
A mace has no properties, yet it is a weapon. (weapons) Your question is also a little unclear. 'If you add weapon properties, then what weapon properties could you add?'
OK. You are correct a mace has no properties listed from the properties section- though that is inherently a property (e.g. it is not 2 handed, not finesse, not light nor heavy, not versatile, has no extended reach, is not thrown, is not ammunition,) so it still has weapon traits (IS a simple Melee Weapon). Are you suggesting all improvised weapons have similar blank property list to a mace/flail/morning star ? (i.e. a "--") but have the "improvised weapon" trait (as opposed to the martial or simple melee/ranged traits).
That is indeed a clean interpretation.
There is suggestion in 2024 wording that things are slightly more open than this- by using two examples of using weapons contrary to design which may not be an all inclusive list- though it could also be interpreted that wielding a ranged weapon in melee or throwing a non throw melee weapon are the only ways to use a weapon contrary to it's design as these are the only examples given. I would think using a two handed axe in one hand, or changing damage types by using the butt end would also be fair use of a weapon contrary to design and thus use of improvised weapon rules, though I could be wrong.
If we assume the PHB was just being less concise than you have been- and all objects (weapon or not) improvised with have the exact same stat block regardless other than damage type- we have a few edge cases where things become a bit illogical or counter intuitive- like a rock having the same reach as a pike used to bash with. This is the only real problem I can see with that simplification off the top of my head.
OK. You are correct a mace has no properties listed from the properties section- though that is inherently a property (e.g. it is not 2 handed, not finesse, not light nor heavy, not versatile, has no extended reach, is not thrown, is not ammunition,) so it still has weapon traits (IS a simple Melee Weapon). Are you suggesting all improvised weapons have similar blank property list to a mace/flail/morning star ? (i.e. a "--") but have the "improvised weapon" trait (as opposed to the martial or simple melee/ranged traits).
That is indeed a clean interpretation.
There is suggestion in 2024 wording that things are slightly more open than this- by using two examples of using weapons contrary to design which may not be an all inclusive list- though it could also be interpreted that wielding a ranged weapon in melee or throwing a non throw melee weapon are the only ways to use a weapon contrary to it's design as these are the only examples given. I would think using a two handed axe in one hand, or changing damage types by using the butt end would also be fair use of a weapon contrary to design and thus use of improvised weapon rules, though I could be wrong.
If we assume the PHB was just being less concise than you have been- and all objects (weapon or not) improvised with have the exact same stat block regardless other than damage type- we have a few edge cases where things become a bit illogical or counter intuitive- like a rock having the same reach as a pike used to bash with. This is the only real problem I can see with that simplification off the top of my head.
I thank you for your clarity of thought.
Looking at the actual rules, it says that if an improvised weapon is similar to an actual weapon, the DM can allow to function like that weapon. Therefore, I believe using a pike backwards could just be interpreted as a quarterstaff. Also, in general weapon reaches make no sense. A dagger definitely can not reach as far as a greatsword. improvised weapons
I guess the only thing I could add to that is that improvised weapons actually do explicitly get a property- Range 20/60- so it is inaccurate to say they don't have properties or gain them via improvising. I do wonder if Dex or Str are used (as the property is "Range" but the text states "if you throw")
Its really just a question of determining if the rules guidance given is the only RAW way, or are just examples given but not exclusive (and do any properties of the weapon remain when improvising?)
From a simplicity standpoint the former is the best choice, though a lot of fun and varied options for players could be allowed by going with the latter interpretation (I would lean more towards allowing creative use of improvising- cause that is the essence of improvisation after all)
I guess the only thing I could add to that is that improvised weapons actually do explicitly get a property- Range 20/60- so it is inaccurate to say they don't have properties or gain them via improvising. I do wonder if Dex or Str are used (as the property is "Range" but the text states "if you throw")
Ranged attack with a weapon use Dexterity unless noted otherwise.
Ability Modifier
The Attack Roll Abilities table shows which ability modifier to use for different types of attack rolls.
I guess the only thing I could add to that is that improvised weapons actually do explicitly get a property- Range 20/60- so it is inaccurate to say they don't have properties or gain them via improvising. I do wonder if Dex or Str are used (as the property is "Range" but the text states "if you throw")
Most improvised weapons that are being thrown would be used in a manner similar to having to the Thrown property, in which case, you'd be using the same Ability modifier as if you had used it as a Melee weapon. I'd probably go with Strength in almost all cases, unless the Improvised Weapon was designed for precise flight.
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🎵I'm on top of the world, looking down on creation, wreaking death and devastation with my mind.
As the power that I've found erupts freely from the ground, I will cackle from the top of the world.🎵
As DM i tend toward a more strict approach to Improvised Weapons they're usually a very subpar choice of weaponry unless the object resembles a weapon it can function like, they don't benefit from Weapon Mastery Property etc. You don't add your Proficiency Bonus to attack rolls and use statistics like this;
Most improvised weapons that are being thrown would be used in a manner similar to having to the Thrown property, in which case, you'd be using the same Ability modifier as if you had used it as a Melee weapon. I'd probably go with Strength in almost all cases, unless the Improvised Weapon was designed for precise flight.
The Improvised Weapons don't say they have the Thrown property. While not official ruling, the devs also indicated they were not X or on Dragon Talk: Sage Advice when discussing improvised weapons not using any properties.
@DMdandanfieldng Does using an improvised weapon in certain ways impart properties to it? For instance, does throwing a rock give the rock the Thrown property? — @JeremyECrawford Using an object in a certain way doesn't impart any weapon properties to it. Those properties are game features. An object has such properties only if a rule or the DM says it does.
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Per PHB 2024 page 369 a simple or martial weapon wielded contrary to its design counts as an improvised weapon- we are given two examples of this: A ranged weapon used in melee, and a melee weapon without thrown property being thrown. (Both changes to the weapons "Properties". Unlike 2014 these are not exclusive ways to wield a weapon contrary to its design)
Also a DM may rule that if a weapon resembles a simple or martial weapon it may function as that weapon and use that weapons rules.
As we have been given two examples of weapon "Properties" changing counting as wielding a weapon contrary to it's design, could we then extrapolate and use- say a two handed weapon in one hand and count this as an improvised use of the weapon (resulting in d4 damage of the weapon's type, but potentially still using the weapons rules such as mastery properties)
If this is possible, could it also be possible to use a melee weapon and make use of dexterity per Finesse rather than strength (resulting in a d4 damage weapon) as Finesse is also a weapon property? This could be fun for a tavern brawler rogue improvising attacks with all sorts of weapons (and DM allowing, getting a greater range of Mastery properties).
Lastly- could I use a pistol in one hand (albeit only doing d4 damage- which kind of defeats the use of a pistol) as a light weapon and a scimitar in the other as god (and history) intended?
I think it's fair to allow using a two-handed weapon in one hand to count as an improvised weapon. I would not go so far as to allow the use of weapon mastery properties in that case; since these are things you need specific training in to do, it seems pretty clear those should only function if the weapon is used in the proper way.
I'm not sure I follow the rest of this; it sounds like you're suggesting that someone could add arbitrary properties like Finesse or Light to a weapon just by treating it as an improvised weapon, which seems way beyond reasonable.
pronouns: he/she/they
I would put forth that using the Mastery properties of a weapon is using the weapon more in line with the Weapon's design than normal Proficiency allows, and as a result, using the Weapon Mastery property is mutually exclusive with using the weapon as an Improvised Weapon. If you deliberately decide to use a purpose-designed tool badly, it should be worse at doing what you want to do with it.
I'd also take the tack that Weapon Properties are inherent to the physical design of the weapon. You can't improvise them into or out of a weapon other than those mentioned. Throwing a Greatsword is possible. Smacking someone with your Crossbow is possible. There may exist in the setting Greataxes that do have the Light and Finesse properties, but the one in the PHB Weapons section is a bog-standard typical one that won't get those properties under mundane circumstances.
🎵I'm on top of the world, looking down on creation, wreaking death and devastation with my mind.
As the power that I've found erupts freely from the ground, I will cackle from the top of the world.🎵
Charisma Saving Throw: DC 18, Failure: 20d6 Psychic Damage, Success: Half damage
Thanks for4 the interesting response. I appreciate it.
Just wanting to clarify, though: Using a two handed weapon in one hand is, rules wise, the same as adding or deleting weapon properties (as is throwing a melee weapon or stabbing someone with an arrow). I am curious why some seem fair and the others seem "beyond reasonable" when it is the same rules transaction (and essentially the same result- i.e. a 1d4 damage weapon).
Some seem fair and some seem beyond reasonable because they're different properties that do different things and have different amounts of impact on the mechanics of the weapon.
pronouns: he/she/they
Notovny said: "I would put forth that using the Mastery properties of a weapon is using the weapon more in line with the Weapon's design than normal Proficiency allows, and as a result, using the Weapon Mastery property is mutually exclusive with using the weapon as an Improvised Weapon. If you deliberately decide to use a purpose-designed tool badly, it should be worse at doing what you want to do with it.
I'd also take the tack that Weapon Properties are inherent to the physical design of the weapon. You can't improvise them into or out of a weapon other than those mentioned. Throwing a Greatsword is possible. Smacking someone with your Crossbow is possible. There may exist in the setting Greataxes that do have the Light and Finesse properties, but the one in the PHB Weapons section is a bog-standard typical one that won't get those properties under mundane circumstances".
Thanks for providing food for thought Notovny.
If weapon properties (such as thrown or melee) are inherent to the design (rather than use) of a weapon and immutable when improvising why can you throw a non thrown weapon or stab with an arrow? Per the rules, it is not about the design of the weapon but the non-standard use of it ( in fact the improvisation rules specifically say use "contrary to design"- which certainly indicates not using the weapon or its properties as standard). If a giant used a human sized great as a light weapon, that would be a non standard use of it but it seems reasonable to me in both a roleplaying and rules context.
If weapon mastery is a quality of the weapon, why then is it mutable and ignored if other things can't be when improvising (according to your logic). Again using the giant with a great axe example- it should be able to cleave with one hand quite effectively.
Also if you decided to tip slash with a rapier to do d4 slashing damage rather than the usual damage type, or bash with an axe etc that would be non standard use that would obviously explicitly change the weapon properties.
The penalty for improvising is base damage of d4 and (usually) lack of proficiency bonus. The (somewhat slim) bonus is flexibility (because you are improvising).
I'm not sure what you are trying to argue. The reason you can use a two handed weapon as a one handed improvised weapon is that it is an object. If you improvise a weapon, it's normal properties don't have an effect. You can't have an improvised weapon with weapon properties.
*responding to wibbletodeath*
Well put.
If that is the case you have stated it way better than the PHB does.
To be clear I am not trying to argue any specific point- I created this thread to get clarity on what is possible with a rather murky underexamined section of the rules which have changed since 2014 (albeit only slightly).
The only thing I would add though is that improvised weapons cannot have no weapon properties - they are still weapons and have to interact with the system in some way. If they have no weapon properties then they are not a weapon and cannot be used to attack- indeed the improvised weapon rules are there to actually provide weapon properties to "objects". So if you can add thrown weapon property, or melee weapon property (which are examples given) what other weapon properties could you employ or not as an improvised weapon depending on how it is wielded?
I guess what I am looking for is more a consistent rules interpretation than this seems OK or this does not because of feel. I mean, its always OK for a DM to rule in an arbitrary way for reasons of balance or believability any given game or situation, that is the case for any aspect of the game.
In any case, thanks for the feedback.
A mace has no properties, yet it is a weapon. (weapons) Your question is also a little unclear. 'If you add weapon properties, then what weapon properties could you add?'
OK. You are correct a mace has no properties listed from the properties section- though that is inherently a property (e.g. it is not 2 handed, not finesse, not light nor heavy, not versatile, has no extended reach, is not thrown, is not ammunition,) so it still has weapon traits (IS a simple Melee Weapon). Are you suggesting all improvised weapons have similar blank property list to a mace/flail/morning star ? (i.e. a "--") but have the "improvised weapon" trait (as opposed to the martial or simple melee/ranged traits).
That is indeed a clean interpretation.
There is suggestion in 2024 wording that things are slightly more open than this- by using two examples of using weapons contrary to design which may not be an all inclusive list- though it could also be interpreted that wielding a ranged weapon in melee or throwing a non throw melee weapon are the only ways to use a weapon contrary to it's design as these are the only examples given. I would think using a two handed axe in one hand, or changing damage types by using the butt end would also be fair use of a weapon contrary to design and thus use of improvised weapon rules, though I could be wrong.
If we assume the PHB was just being less concise than you have been- and all objects (weapon or not) improvised with have the exact same stat block regardless other than damage type- we have a few edge cases where things become a bit illogical or counter intuitive- like a rock having the same reach as a pike used to bash with. This is the only real problem I can see with that simplification off the top of my head.
I thank you for your clarity of thought.
Looking at the actual rules, it says that if an improvised weapon is similar to an actual weapon, the DM can allow to function like that weapon. Therefore, I believe using a pike backwards could just be interpreted as a quarterstaff. Also, in general weapon reaches make no sense. A dagger definitely can not reach as far as a greatsword. improvised weapons
With DM approval Improvised Weapons wielded in a way contrary to its design could also include:
With DM approval I can turn into a car and fly over my enemies to steal their weapons.
You can't do much without DM approval, which you can expect to need when trying to do anything not specifically covered RAW.
I guess the only thing I could add to that is that improvised weapons actually do explicitly get a property- Range 20/60- so it is inaccurate to say they don't have properties or gain them via improvising. I do wonder if Dex or Str are used (as the property is "Range" but the text states "if you throw")
Its really just a question of determining if the rules guidance given is the only RAW way, or are just examples given but not exclusive (and do any properties of the weapon remain when improvising?)
From a simplicity standpoint the former is the best choice, though a lot of fun and varied options for players could be allowed by going with the latter interpretation (I would lean more towards allowing creative use of improvising- cause that is the essence of improvisation after all)
Ranged attack with a weapon use Dexterity unless noted otherwise.
Most improvised weapons that are being thrown would be used in a manner similar to having to the Thrown property, in which case, you'd be using the same Ability modifier as if you had used it as a Melee weapon. I'd probably go with Strength in almost all cases, unless the Improvised Weapon was designed for precise flight.
🎵I'm on top of the world, looking down on creation, wreaking death and devastation with my mind.
As the power that I've found erupts freely from the ground, I will cackle from the top of the world.🎵
Charisma Saving Throw: DC 18, Failure: 20d6 Psychic Damage, Success: Half damage
As DM i tend toward a more strict approach to Improvised Weapons they're usually a very subpar choice of weaponry unless the object resembles a weapon it can function like, they don't benefit from Weapon Mastery Property etc. You don't add your Proficiency Bonus to attack rolls and use statistics like this;
The Improvised Weapons don't say they have the Thrown property. While not official ruling, the devs also indicated they were not X or on Dragon Talk: Sage Advice when discussing improvised weapons not using any properties.