Hi all. I'm going to be playing in Rise of Tiamat. I'm was curious about thoughts and strategies around fighting dragons, especially when it comes to building characters. What 5e (2024) class and features might be particularly helpful? A paladin's aura? A rogues evasion? Each class has their niche, but what would you take to battle a dragon (or multiple)?
Do you have any particularly good stories (no campaign spoilers please) or tactics for taking on the big lizards? Or any good teamwork combos?
The problem with pre-made adventures like that (I have run Rise of Tiamat), is that unless the DM is willing to greatly change the adventure or ad-lib, you are going to fight those dragons on their turf and in areas specifically created to deny you the best tactics.
The best way to deal with a dragon is to ground it (earthbind, restrain them with spells, grapple traps, nets, chains, whatever), then kill it from outside its breath range and well out of its reach. Pre-made adventures make that nearly impossible.
So your best bet instead is to build a well rounded party, with overlapping roles. Don't focus on gimmicks or one-trick ponies or you could find yourself in a situation where that one-trick ponie character is useless. You'll want high mobility (dragons move around a lot, and if the melee characters can't get into melee, they'd better have a range option available). Besides White dragons that are not known for being smart, most dragons are not going to go up within melee range until they've softened up the group - so you'll need ranged attacks or a way to reach the dragon (fly, misty steps, etc.)
Try to get the dragon to use up its Legendary Resistances as early as possible. You know it is going to breathe early in the fight, so make sure you have a plan to either resist, avoid, or heal the massive damage your party could end up taking.
And most importantly - never never group up. Spread out, with no two characters in a line with each other (this is where it pays to have highly mobile characters, to get away from each other quickly, to get to the dragon quickly regardless of where it goes, and to get to downed party members to get them back in the fight). Don't forget to think in 3 dimensions. Dragons have wings, can climb, some can burrow and swim.
Luckily most dragons have hp that are way too low. Hit them hard and fast, and most won't survive to get a second blast of their breath weapon. Of course that assumes you can keep them from moving out of your range, and assumes you survive that first breath attack. The adventure is going to work against you on this, it will create the situation where the dragon almost always hits you first, and prevents you from reaching it right away.
And as always, my primary advice is not to build characters towards what you think you may be fighting in a campaign; but build a character that you will enjoy roleplaying that can survive in a wide range of environments. You'll be more successful and have more fun.
Some great advice! Thank you for taking the time to share your experience @HarmAssassin. Which made me think of some follow-up questions.
• Any ideas on how best to lure a dragon out of its lair?
• At first I thought a paladin with aura of protection for the group would be great, but that causes would require the group to bunch up. Would that be worse?
But yes, building a character you’d enjoy playing is the number one rule.
I mean, how any creature reacts is up to the DM, so it's hard to give general advice. Intelligent creatures like dragons are typically going to fort up in their lairs if they expect a serious challenge to come their way, and any lever that might make them act differently is campaign dependent. Really the classic way to get a dragon acting irrational is to go after its hoard (which can also help avert the "why doesn't the dragon just fly away if it's losing" question- they'll fight to the death rather than surrender their hoard), but that pretty much always necessitates entering the lair.
As for Aura of Protection, a slight increase in the bonus on a saving throw is significantly less optimal than avoiding the damage altogether by not being in the AoE.
Hi all. I'm going to be playing in Rise of Tiamat. I'm was curious about thoughts and strategies around fighting dragons, especially when it comes to building characters. What 5e (2024) class and features might be particularly helpful? A paladin's aura? A rogues evasion? Each class has their niche, but what would you take to battle a dragon (or multiple)?
Do you have any particularly good stories (no campaign spoilers please) or tactics for taking on the big lizards? Or any good teamwork combos?
Thanks!
Lot of factors: what type of dragon? What ages? How is their lair constructed? How big is your party? What does your party consist of? Are you trying to spotlight vs the dragons?
in 2018 I had a warlock who at level 11 was able to over the course of 2 days solo an adult red dragon by using harassing tactics and never letting the dragon get a good rest in and just killing it off over attrition as the dragon protected its hoard.
i assume you want a quicker and more satisfying death for the dragon.
Rangers have nice ways to specialize as “dragon slayers” to be pretty effective. Paladins are effective against literally everything. As far as how to lure the dragon out of the lair? Steal from the hoard with LIVE BAIT- run like hell, and be chased, and be ready for one person to be near death while the rest of the party lays the ambush successfully.
Hi all. I'm going to be playing in Rise of Tiamat. I'm was curious about thoughts and strategies around fighting dragons, especially when it comes to building characters. What 5e (2024) class and features might be particularly helpful? A paladin's aura? A rogues evasion? Each class has their niche, but what would you take to battle a dragon (or multiple)?
Do you have any particularly good stories (no campaign spoilers please) or tactics for taking on the big lizards? Or any good teamwork combos?
Thanks!
Lot of factors: what type of dragon? What ages? How is their lair constructed? How big is your party? What does your party consist of? Are you trying to spotlight vs the dragons?
in 2018 I had a warlock who at level 11 was able to over the course of 2 days solo an adult red dragon by using harassing tactics and never letting the dragon get a good rest in and just killing it off over attrition as the dragon protected its hoard.
i assume you want a quicker and more satisfying death for the dragon.
Rangers have nice ways to specialize as “dragon slayers” to be pretty effective. Paladins are effective against literally everything. As far as how to lure the dragon out of the lair? Steal from the hoard with LIVE BAIT- run like hell, and be chased, and be ready for one person to be near death while the rest of the party lays the ambush successfully.
If you're using 2024 rules, ranger has no ability that lets them specialize in certain enemies.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm just your everyday dungeon master. Ignore that jar full of souls. And those bones in the corner are just props, don't worry. I'm definitely NOT a lich. Definitely.
Yes, I like beholders. Yes, I curated an exquisite personality for commoner #2864. Yes, my catchphrase is "are you sure?"
Hi all. I'm going to be playing in Rise of Tiamat. I'm was curious about thoughts and strategies around fighting dragons, especially when it comes to building characters. What 5e (2024) class and features might be particularly helpful? A paladin's aura? A rogues evasion? Each class has their niche, but what would you take to battle a dragon (or multiple)?
Do you have any particularly good stories (no campaign spoilers please) or tactics for taking on the big lizards? Or any good teamwork combos?
Thanks!
Lot of factors: what type of dragon? What ages? How is their lair constructed? How big is your party? What does your party consist of? Are you trying to spotlight vs the dragons?
in 2018 I had a warlock who at level 11 was able to over the course of 2 days solo an adult red dragon by using harassing tactics and never letting the dragon get a good rest in and just killing it off over attrition as the dragon protected its hoard.
i assume you want a quicker and more satisfying death for the dragon.
Rangers have nice ways to specialize as “dragon slayers” to be pretty effective. Paladins are effective against literally everything. As far as how to lure the dragon out of the lair? Steal from the hoard with LIVE BAIT- run like hell, and be chased, and be ready for one person to be near death while the rest of the party lays the ambush successfully.
If you're using 2024 rules, ranger has no ability that lets them specialize in certain enemies.
They still have hunters mark, are trackers, and thematically can do so.
Like it’s been mentioned, the DM is the key. As each one has their own style of play.
But most importantly is the group make up. Combination of ranged attacks and melee attacks, so the encounter can be split between the two. But really it’s the Di that will determine the outcome. Saving throws, ability checks: ie initiative, evasion, to hit, damage etc. The faster you can burn down the dragons hp, the less damage you will take. Most DMs won’t move the dragon out of it’s lair their to smart a monster for doing so.
Definitely don’t bunch up as it’ll make the breath weapon more powerful than it should be. Best tactic would be like mentioned is a two front attack (ranged and melee). It’ll split up the dragon concentration of who to attack.
Yeah, like they said spread up and have range, because the dragons main things are breath weapon and flight. Try to surround it, and take cover if you can, gives bonuses to your saves. In tyranny the lairs are cramped so it is harder to spread, but maybe you could drop a roof on it (transmute earth, well placed fireball) hold monster also effective, because paralyzed is OP (my players, at level six, dropped a CR 8 in one round just because of the auto-crit on hit part of paralyzed)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
DM: He doesn't have much besides the skin on his bones.
Me: I'll take the skin on his bones, then.
Also, this is for Redwall nerds: Eeeeeuuuuulllllllaaaaaaaalllllllliiiiiiiiiaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!
While you don't want to bunch up, you also don't want the party to spread out too far. You really don't want to give a dragon a chance to isolate a single party member and focus on them. Or worse, grab a party member and fly off with them.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Hold Monster is an option, but it's a save or suck effect and dragons have strong WIS saves, so your odds of even forcing them to burn a LR on it are "meh". It's a valid option, but it's a pretty all or nothing use of your turn and probably only gives about even odds of going your way.
Thanks all for sharing. These are useful tips. I was contemplating how dragons will often get the first drop or attack on parties, particularly in their lair. Any thoughts or ideas on how to distract or trick a dragon? Would illusions work or two people ear each other to draw their breath attack, or would blindsight just see through them? How about summoned creatures?
Again, specifics of behavior are very much DM dependent. RAW Blindsight doesn't automatically detect illusions, but that's about the only definite answer I can give you.
And most importantly - never never group up. Spread out, with no two characters in a line with each other (this is where it pays to have highly mobile characters, to get away from each other quickly, to get to the dragon quickly regardless of where it goes, and to get to downed party members to get them back in the fight). Don't forget to think in 3 dimensions. Dragons have wings, can climb, some can burrow and swim.
Pushes glasses up nose...
Well actually... two points will always be in a line. However it is important to never have 2 characters already in a line with the dragon itself (so it at least has to make a move to catch 2), and avoid having 3 people in a line that the dragon can get to and blast down.
Hi all. I'm going to be playing in Rise of Tiamat. I'm was curious about thoughts and strategies around fighting dragons, especially when it comes to building characters. What 5e (2024) class and features might be particularly helpful? A paladin's aura? A rogues evasion? Each class has their niche, but what would you take to battle a dragon (or multiple)?
Do you have any particularly good stories (no campaign spoilers please) or tactics for taking on the big lizards? Or any good teamwork combos?
Thanks!
The problem with pre-made adventures like that (I have run Rise of Tiamat), is that unless the DM is willing to greatly change the adventure or ad-lib, you are going to fight those dragons on their turf and in areas specifically created to deny you the best tactics.
The best way to deal with a dragon is to ground it (earthbind, restrain them with spells, grapple traps, nets, chains, whatever), then kill it from outside its breath range and well out of its reach. Pre-made adventures make that nearly impossible.
So your best bet instead is to build a well rounded party, with overlapping roles. Don't focus on gimmicks or one-trick ponies or you could find yourself in a situation where that one-trick ponie character is useless. You'll want high mobility (dragons move around a lot, and if the melee characters can't get into melee, they'd better have a range option available). Besides White dragons that are not known for being smart, most dragons are not going to go up within melee range until they've softened up the group - so you'll need ranged attacks or a way to reach the dragon (fly, misty steps, etc.)
Try to get the dragon to use up its Legendary Resistances as early as possible. You know it is going to breathe early in the fight, so make sure you have a plan to either resist, avoid, or heal the massive damage your party could end up taking.
And most importantly - never never group up. Spread out, with no two characters in a line with each other (this is where it pays to have highly mobile characters, to get away from each other quickly, to get to the dragon quickly regardless of where it goes, and to get to downed party members to get them back in the fight). Don't forget to think in 3 dimensions. Dragons have wings, can climb, some can burrow and swim.
Luckily most dragons have hp that are way too low. Hit them hard and fast, and most won't survive to get a second blast of their breath weapon. Of course that assumes you can keep them from moving out of your range, and assumes you survive that first breath attack. The adventure is going to work against you on this, it will create the situation where the dragon almost always hits you first, and prevents you from reaching it right away.
And as always, my primary advice is not to build characters towards what you think you may be fighting in a campaign; but build a character that you will enjoy roleplaying that can survive in a wide range of environments. You'll be more successful and have more fun.
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
Some great advice! Thank you for taking the time to share your experience @HarmAssassin. Which made me think of some follow-up questions.
• Any ideas on how best to lure a dragon out of its lair?
• At first I thought a paladin with aura of protection for the group would be great, but that causes would require the group to bunch up. Would that be worse?
But yes, building a character you’d enjoy playing is the number one rule.
I mean, how any creature reacts is up to the DM, so it's hard to give general advice. Intelligent creatures like dragons are typically going to fort up in their lairs if they expect a serious challenge to come their way, and any lever that might make them act differently is campaign dependent. Really the classic way to get a dragon acting irrational is to go after its hoard (which can also help avert the "why doesn't the dragon just fly away if it's losing" question- they'll fight to the death rather than surrender their hoard), but that pretty much always necessitates entering the lair.
As for Aura of Protection, a slight increase in the bonus on a saving throw is significantly less optimal than avoiding the damage altogether by not being in the AoE.
Lot of factors: what type of dragon? What ages? How is their lair constructed? How big is your party? What does your party consist of? Are you trying to spotlight vs the dragons?
in 2018 I had a warlock who at level 11 was able to over the course of 2 days solo an adult red dragon by using harassing tactics and never letting the dragon get a good rest in and just killing it off over attrition as the dragon protected its hoard.
i assume you want a quicker and more satisfying death for the dragon.
Rangers have nice ways to specialize as “dragon slayers” to be pretty effective. Paladins are effective against literally everything.
As far as how to lure the dragon out of the lair? Steal from the hoard with LIVE BAIT- run like hell, and be chased, and be ready for one person to be near death while the rest of the party lays the ambush successfully.
Blank
If you're using 2024 rules, ranger has no ability that lets them specialize in certain enemies.
I'm just your everyday dungeon master. Ignore that jar full of souls. And those bones in the corner are just props, don't worry. I'm definitely NOT a lich. Definitely.
Yes, I like beholders. Yes, I curated an exquisite personality for commoner #2864. Yes, my catchphrase is "are you sure?"
.-. .- -. -.. --- -- / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . .-.-.-
They still have hunters mark, are trackers, and thematically can do so.
Blank
Like it’s been mentioned, the DM is the key. As each one has their own style of play.
But most importantly is the group make up. Combination of ranged attacks and melee attacks, so the encounter can be split between the two. But really it’s the Di that will determine the outcome. Saving throws, ability checks: ie initiative, evasion, to hit, damage etc. The faster you can burn down the dragons hp, the less damage you will take.
Most DMs won’t move the dragon out of it’s lair their to smart a monster for doing so.
Definitely don’t bunch up as it’ll make the breath weapon more powerful than it should be. Best tactic would be like mentioned is a two front attack (ranged and melee). It’ll split up the dragon concentration of who to attack.
Yeah, like they said spread up and have range, because the dragons main things are breath weapon and flight. Try to surround it, and take cover if you can, gives bonuses to your saves. In tyranny the lairs are cramped so it is harder to spread, but maybe you could drop a roof on it (transmute earth, well placed fireball) hold monster also effective, because paralyzed is OP (my players, at level six, dropped a CR 8 in one round just because of the auto-crit on hit part of paralyzed)
DM: He doesn't have much besides the skin on his bones.
Me: I'll take the skin on his bones, then.
Also, this is for Redwall nerds: Eeeeeuuuuulllllllaaaaaaaalllllllliiiiiiiiiaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!
While you don't want to bunch up, you also don't want the party to spread out too far. You really don't want to give a dragon a chance to isolate a single party member and focus on them. Or worse, grab a party member and fly off with them.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Hold Monster is an option, but it's a save or suck effect and dragons have strong WIS saves, so your odds of even forcing them to burn a LR on it are "meh". It's a valid option, but it's a pretty all or nothing use of your turn and probably only gives about even odds of going your way.
Thanks all for sharing. These are useful tips. I was contemplating how dragons will often get the first drop or attack on parties, particularly in their lair. Any thoughts or ideas on how to distract or trick a dragon? Would illusions work or two people ear each other to draw their breath attack, or would blindsight just see through them? How about summoned creatures?
Again, specifics of behavior are very much DM dependent. RAW Blindsight doesn't automatically detect illusions, but that's about the only definite answer I can give you.
Pushes glasses up nose...
Well actually... two points will always be in a line. However it is important to never have 2 characters already in a line with the dragon itself (so it at least has to make a move to catch 2), and avoid having 3 people in a line that the dragon can get to and blast down.
:D
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