I'm trying to think of a means to leverage inverted magic circle and planar binding to capture and bind a wild elemental/fiend/fey.
Magic circle has a 1 minute cast time, which is problematic. Say a martial party member engages the target, and I begin casting inverted magic circle on the spot where the target is standing. Another party member then casts banishment on the target while I complete casting inverted magic circle. If concentration is dropped on banishment, then does the target reappear within the circle and become stuck there? I think so since nothing in the spell description says a target can't enter an inverted magic circle. My understanding is it just can't leave without using magic means and making a saving throw.
Alternately, does the target need to be physically present at the time the casting of inverted magic circle is completed? If so, then I suppose the target would need to be banished before I start casting inverted magic circle, and the target would need to remain in position briefly while I finish casting. In this case, the martial party member could ready a grapple or attack against the spell's target for when it reappears.
The intended use for an inverted magic circle has always been that you summon something into the circle, then bind it, not for binding wild spirits. However, magic circles are one way, so you can cast magic circle then shove your target in.
Thanks. No spells to summon actual monsters in 2024, only stat blocks. I believe the only way to make use of spells like magic circle and planar binding in the new edition is to target wild mobs.
Thanks. No spells to summon actual monsters in 2024, only stat blocks. I believe the only way to make use of spells like magic circle and planar binding in the new edition is to target wild mobs.
Nothing about those stat blocks makes them immune to planar binding (though there's no reason to bother with the circle), but yes, in general planar binding seems like "spell converted from 3.5e without actually thinking about how it would work in 5e", it has problems even in 2014.
Yeah, it's awkward and adds to some chinks in the wizard's armor along with notable nerfs in 2024 (e.g., forcecage and magic jar now having very limited use cases).
As a side note, you could always use Wish to get the effect of Magic Circle in a single action. It takes a higher level character, but can make binding a wild entity more feasible.
Yeah, it's awkward and adds to some chinks in the wizard's armor along with notable nerfs in 2024 (e.g., forcecage and magic jar now having very limited use cases).
Hm. That made me check magic jar to see if it's nerfed by enough that I'm willing to let PCs actually cast it. Nope, still looks like an NPC-only spell.
Actually I don't know the grapple rules for 2024, but I like the idea: Wrestle the Pit Fiend for 10 rounds to keep it in the circle - then gingerly step out.
Oh, and don't be a tiefling or something like that - better not give the GM any bright ideas =)
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Actually I don't know the grapple rules for 2024, but I like the idea: Wrestle the Pit Fiend for 10 rounds to keep it in the circle - then gingerly step out.
Oh, and don't be a tiefling or something like that - better not give the GM any bright ideas =)
You would not need to grapple something for 10 rounds. Once the circle was created, you would only have to get in into the circle somehow and it would be trapped. It does not have to be in the circle when it is created, because travel is only blocked in one direction. You could grapple and drag it, shove it, or even just use Vortex Warp to get it into the circle. Once it is inside an inverted circle, it is stuck there unless it can teleport.
You would not need to grapple something for 10 rounds. Once the circle was created, you would only have to get in into the circle somehow and it would be trapped. It does not have to be in the circle when it is created, because travel is only blocked in one direction. You could grapple and drag it, shove it, or even just use Vortex Warp to get it into the circle. Once it is inside an inverted circle, it is stuck there unless it can teleport.
Yes, obviously. But if you didn't cast the circle in advance - which as far as I'm able to discern is what the OP has in mind - you need to keep it there for 10 rounds. Which is something grapple can (potentially) achieve. Cast Sanctuary, Grapple, wait 10 rounds, outsider is now trapped.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
You would not need to grapple something for 10 rounds. Once the circle was created, you would only have to get in into the circle somehow and it would be trapped. It does not have to be in the circle when it is created, because travel is only blocked in one direction. You could grapple and drag it, shove it, or even just use Vortex Warp to get it into the circle. Once it is inside an inverted circle, it is stuck there unless it can teleport.
Yes, obviously. But if you didn't cast the circle in advance - which as far as I'm able to discern is what the OP has in mind - you need to keep it there for 10 rounds. Which is something grapple can (potentially) achieve. Cast Sanctuary, Grapple, wait 10 rounds, outsider is now trapped.
What I was getting at is that the entity does not have to stay in the area of the spell while it is being cast. It doesn't even have to be in the circle when the casting in finished. Once the circle is fully formed, it can be moved into the circle at any time during the duration to trap it. Holding it still for 10 rounds is not necessary. Just keep it occupied nearby for a minute while the Magic Circle is cast, then give it a good shove to get it into the circle to trap it.
What I was getting at is that the entity does not have to stay in the area of the spell while it is being cast. It doesn't even have to be in the circle when the casting in finished. Once the circle is fully formed, it can be moved into the circle at any time during the duration to trap it. Holding it still for 10 rounds is not necessary. Just keep it occupied nearby for a minute while the Magic Circle is cast, then give it a good shove to get it into the circle to trap it.
Right, again, yes. But. If I had the choice between keeping the thing in place for 10 rounds, or casting my spell in some spot, the target recognising the intent, moving away for 10 rounds - quite possibly flying - then having to physically drag it back to the circle, taking potentially a lot more than 10 rounds, I think I know what I'd pick.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
The easiest way to trap a critter in a magic circle is to lay down a glyph of warding for the circle and then figure out how to lure the monster on top of the trap.
Because even magic circle requires time to cast, I find it very impractical to help with binding enemies. Players rarely have the time to sit around and prepare traps before a fight begins. The only consistent way I've found to use Planar Binding is by using Divine Intervention as a level 10 Cleric. Then order that creature to submit to any spells you cast at them, and then recast it as the highest level you can to prolong the binding period (and raise the DC for Dispel Magic)
Yeah, it's awkward and adds to some chinks in the wizard's armor along with notable nerfs in 2024 (e.g., forcecage and magic jar now having very limited use cases).
Hm. That made me check magic jar to see if it's nerfed by enough that I'm willing to let PCs actually cast it. Nope, still looks like an NPC-only spell.
Curious... What do you see in 2024 magic jar that I (and others) don't?
Curious... What do you see in 2024 magic jar that I (and others) don't?
It's essentially a save or die spell for any creature targeted. It needs an additional restriction such as "automatically fails on targets with a CR or level exceeding the level of the spell".
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I'm trying to think of a means to leverage inverted magic circle and planar binding to capture and bind a wild elemental/fiend/fey.
Magic circle has a 1 minute cast time, which is problematic. Say a martial party member engages the target, and I begin casting inverted magic circle on the spot where the target is standing. Another party member then casts banishment on the target while I complete casting inverted magic circle. If concentration is dropped on banishment, then does the target reappear within the circle and become stuck there? I think so since nothing in the spell description says a target can't enter an inverted magic circle. My understanding is it just can't leave without using magic means and making a saving throw.
Alternately, does the target need to be physically present at the time the casting of inverted magic circle is completed? If so, then I suppose the target would need to be banished before I start casting inverted magic circle, and the target would need to remain in position briefly while I finish casting. In this case, the martial party member could ready a grapple or attack against the spell's target for when it reappears.
The intended use for an inverted magic circle has always been that you summon something into the circle, then bind it, not for binding wild spirits. However, magic circles are one way, so you can cast magic circle then shove your target in.
Thanks. No spells to summon actual monsters in 2024, only stat blocks. I believe the only way to make use of spells like magic circle and planar binding in the new edition is to target wild mobs.
Nothing about those stat blocks makes them immune to planar binding (though there's no reason to bother with the circle), but yes, in general planar binding seems like "spell converted from 3.5e without actually thinking about how it would work in 5e", it has problems even in 2014.
Yeah, it's awkward and adds to some chinks in the wizard's armor along with notable nerfs in 2024 (e.g., forcecage and magic jar now having very limited use cases).
As a side note, you could always use Wish to get the effect of Magic Circle in a single action. It takes a higher level character, but can make binding a wild entity more feasible.
Hm. That made me check magic jar to see if it's nerfed by enough that I'm willing to let PCs actually cast it. Nope, still looks like an NPC-only spell.
Grapple.
Actually I don't know the grapple rules for 2024, but I like the idea: Wrestle the Pit Fiend for 10 rounds to keep it in the circle - then gingerly step out.
Oh, and don't be a tiefling or something like that - better not give the GM any bright ideas =)
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
You would not need to grapple something for 10 rounds. Once the circle was created, you would only have to get in into the circle somehow and it would be trapped. It does not have to be in the circle when it is created, because travel is only blocked in one direction. You could grapple and drag it, shove it, or even just use Vortex Warp to get it into the circle. Once it is inside an inverted circle, it is stuck there unless it can teleport.
Yes, obviously. But if you didn't cast the circle in advance - which as far as I'm able to discern is what the OP has in mind - you need to keep it there for 10 rounds. Which is something grapple can (potentially) achieve. Cast Sanctuary, Grapple, wait 10 rounds, outsider is now trapped.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
What I was getting at is that the entity does not have to stay in the area of the spell while it is being cast. It doesn't even have to be in the circle when the casting in finished. Once the circle is fully formed, it can be moved into the circle at any time during the duration to trap it. Holding it still for 10 rounds is not necessary. Just keep it occupied nearby for a minute while the Magic Circle is cast, then give it a good shove to get it into the circle to trap it.
Right, again, yes. But. If I had the choice between keeping the thing in place for 10 rounds, or casting my spell in some spot, the target recognising the intent, moving away for 10 rounds - quite possibly flying - then having to physically drag it back to the circle, taking potentially a lot more than 10 rounds, I think I know what I'd pick.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
The easiest way to trap a critter in a magic circle is to lay down a glyph of warding for the circle and then figure out how to lure the monster on top of the trap.
Because even magic circle requires time to cast, I find it very impractical to help with binding enemies.
Players rarely have the time to sit around and prepare traps before a fight begins.
The only consistent way I've found to use Planar Binding is by using Divine Intervention as a level 10 Cleric.
Then order that creature to submit to any spells you cast at them, and then recast it as the highest level you can to prolong the binding period (and raise the DC for Dispel Magic)
If vortex warp works, then returning from banishment should as well. Keeping the target occupied for a minute without killing it is a hurdle.
Not really. Beat to 0 hp, choose subdual damage (of course, not much point to the magic circle then).
Curious... What do you see in 2024 magic jar that I (and others) don't?
It's essentially a save or die spell for any creature targeted. It needs an additional restriction such as "automatically fails on targets with a CR or level exceeding the level of the spell".