Zombies are utterly pathetic creatures, just look at all the zombies in media, you need a swarm of 50+ to kill some ordinary people armed with baseball bats.
So! We're talking about caves! For some of the smaller dragons who are lucky enough to find them, they'll be great lairs. But for a dracolich? It's Gargantuan, right? How are you gonna find a cave that can accommodate such a large dragon (while also being secure enough for all of the dragon's things and weird enough to make it hard for the dragon's enemies to enter?). That's a lot of constraints that the cave has to fit under, and again, like some have voiced, the dragons don't know our world. They don't know where all of the caves are, for heaven's sake. In reality, there's going to be maybe one or two lucky dragons that find caves suitable for them. You can't really make your own cave, either, right? The dragons don't really know how to work our explosives, and Fire Breath doesn't do much against rock. A pure ten-plus feet of rock.
Additionally, would humans really care if a sole dracolich went and hid in the ground (assuming they're part of the challenge?) I think they wouldn't, especially if they've knocked out the rest of the dragons. They outnumber it (I'll account for some casualties in the human-dragon war) 7.5 billion to one, and it's powerful, but it's going to die - we will nuke that area after telling people to evacuate. And its minions? "Oh, no, a zombie with 20 hit points! We have a thousand commoners with rifles! Gee, I wonder who's going to win..."
Such caves already exist and legend lore would probably cover it if they don’t have any other spells or dragons don’t use a free computer somewhere to search it up. Also blue dragons take offence to that, it’s not a cave, but it’s gonna be hard as hell to detect, especially as it collapses on itself, also stone doesn’t have fire resistance, so in theory the dragon could actually melt through the stone against the threshold, they could also just repeatedly hit the stone until it chips, grab it with their mouth and spit it out of their burrow, acid dragons could this easily.
Also we’ve all mentioned it’s only Europe's Military so it’s actually only a couple million, maybe 10, which is significantly smaller than a billion, with Europe not even having that many people. What’s stopping a dragon being in a civilian population from just… I dunno, shapechanging and just go with the crowd, especially if they took someone’s identity, congrats, you wasted a nuke and a entire town, and the dragon is nowhere to be seen.
Also, why are you people so obsessed with the military being this hyper omnipresent being capable of surrounding anything the moment they detect its presence? Europe has tons of forests and all sorts of cover, terrain and the likes, 1000 soldiers being able to completely surround a dragon from all sides with it being completely flat sounds more like a premade kill zone, not an area where you would actually find a dragon. Same with a zombie, I feel like you just say “oh humans win” with zero assumptions that the zombie could do anything, my bringing up of zombies implies that the zombies would be made deep in a cave to defend a soul gem, a zombie would be scary due to the fact that you can’t just immediately surround it in a cave with zero flat terrain, you have no dark vision and the thing can’t even die from headshots and keeps coming back unless it just gives up, now add a couple dozen of them, all who are very much dead civilians, and put them everywhere in the cave, now you have to deal with figuring out of that corpse is actually a corpse.
Europe can’t even feed every civilian properly in a war, let alone be this hyper efficient even after uniting temporarily to fight dragons.
Yes, dragons begin a war with all of Europe, and the best use of their time is slowly digging out a cave using their mouths.
You forget that the military has radar and similar technologies that would allow them to easily find the massive, colorful beasts rampaging through the countryside.
Also, zombies are not difficult to kill. Two attacks will kill one (and any others in the burst fire area). They have undead fortitude, but that has less than a 50% chance of success, so one more attack would probably kill them. They also barely do any damage.
Plus if we are talking about nukes, the one place people would be ok with nuking is down at the bottom of a deep cave. Down at the bottom of abandoned mines is pretty much the only place it's acceptable to test nuclear weapons in the current climate. That little gem would get liquified.
It’s completely immune to necrotic damage, so radiation would do jack, also the cave I used as an example is known to be flooded and connected to other underwater caves, the military REALLY should not nuke the thing, who knows how far the radiation can reach through the water.
So! We're talking about caves! For some of the smaller dragons who are lucky enough to find them, they'll be great lairs. But for a dracolich? It's Gargantuan, right? How are you gonna find a cave that can accommodate such a large dragon (while also being secure enough for all of the dragon's things and weird enough to make it hard for the dragon's enemies to enter?). That's a lot of constraints that the cave has to fit under, and again, like some have voiced, the dragons don't know our world. They don't know where all of the caves are, for heaven's sake. In reality, there's going to be maybe one or two lucky dragons that find caves suitable for them. You can't really make your own cave, either, right? The dragons don't really know how to work our explosives, and Fire Breath doesn't do much against rock. A pure ten-plus feet of rock.
Additionally, would humans really care if a sole dracolich went and hid in the ground (assuming they're part of the challenge?) I think they wouldn't, especially if they've knocked out the rest of the dragons. They outnumber it (I'll account for some casualties in the human-dragon war) 7.5 billion to one, and it's powerful, but it's going to die - we will nuke that area after telling people to evacuate. And its minions? "Oh, no, a zombie with 20 hit points! We have a thousand commoners with rifles! Gee, I wonder who's going to win..."
Such caves already exist and legend lore would probably cover it if they don’t have any other spells or dragons don’t use a free computer somewhere to search it up. Also blue dragons take offence to that, it’s not a cave, but it’s gonna be hard as hell to detect, especially as it collapses on itself, also stone doesn’t have fire resistance, so in theory the dragon could actually melt through the stone against the threshold, they could also just repeatedly hit the stone until it chips, grab it with their mouth and spit it out of their burrow, acid dragons could this easily.
Also we’ve all mentioned it’s only Europe's Military so it’s actually only a couple million, maybe 10, which is significantly smaller than a billion, with Europe not even having that many people. What’s stopping a dragon being in a civilian population from just… I dunno, shapechanging and just go with the crowd, especially if they took someone’s identity, congrats, you wasted a nuke and a entire town, and the dragon is nowhere to be seen.
Also, why are you people so obsessed with the military being this hyper omnipresent being capable of surrounding anything the moment they detect its presence? Europe has tons of forests and all sorts of cover, terrain and the likes, 1000 soldiers being able to completely surround a dragon from all sides with it being completely flat sounds more like a premade kill zone, not an area where you would actually find a dragon. Same with a zombie, I feel like you just say “oh humans win” with zero assumptions that the zombie could do anything, my bringing up of zombies implies that the zombies would be made deep in a cave to defend a soul gem, a zombie would be scary due to the fact that you can’t just immediately surround it in a cave with zero flat terrain, you have no dark vision and the thing can’t even die from headshots and keeps coming back unless it just gives up, now add a couple dozen of them, all who are very much dead civilians, and put them everywhere in the cave, now you have to deal with figuring out of that corpse is actually a corpse.
Europe can’t even feed every civilian properly in a war, let alone be this hyper efficient even after uniting temporarily to fight dragons.
Yes, dragons begin a war with all of Europe, and the best use of their time is slowly digging out a cave using their mouths.
You forget that the military has radar and similar technologies that would allow them to easily find the massive, colorful beasts rampaging through the countryside.
Also, zombies are not difficult to kill. Two attacks will kill one (and any others in the burst fire area). They have undead fortitude, but that has less than a 50% chance of success, so one more attack would probably kill them. They also barely do any damage.
Well what did Germany do before the Invasion of Normandy? Make a bunch of stupid big rooms to get cover and add obstructions against ships? Nah that would never work to murder an insane amount of men, they're clearly idiots.
Well it’ll probably take a few hours for them to figure out where the initial locations of each dragon were during Day 0, seeing cameras are not just gonna automatically target dragons like their sentient machines. Also radar doesn’t work that well underground, where you would find giant rocks everywhere, pipe and electrical lines and… oh the blue dragons could just bite on the funny lines and cause an entire blackout, it would take days for that to be fixed, that would honestly be a great strategy once they figure out the lines are giving power to a town.
Zombies do the equivalent damage of a mace and a bit more, while it won’t kill a soldier that would be more than enough to require medical assistance. Their danger is in enclosed environments, so using them to pick off small groups searching for a dragon would probably be somewhat decent, a kill ratio of 1:3 is still good enough when they could just be brought back. Also dragons could possibly have access to summon elemental spells now that I think about it, yea a fire elemental would be devastating if any dragon has access to it, unlikely, but it’s a idea.
Anyways back on the undead, ghouls and ghasts would be a tad more effective at dispatching the soldiers, even if their a little squisher, paralysis would completely doom a soldier while the ghast's stench would cripple a group's accuracy if they were to be close together, also wights would be great for self sustaining undead hordes, not to mention the paranoia from having dead people come back. Which is probably enough for the dragon to relocate to a safer location like the densest parts of a forest near a city.
Also the European Union’s military size as of 2020 is more than 2 million, let’s say it’s 2.5 with the rest of Europe’s forces, that’s actually not a lot, let’s say Faerun has at minimum 1,000 dragons, that would be at most 2,500 military personal dealing with each dragon, with eruope's tooth to tail ratio, which is soldier that is armed for combat and non combatant roles is 1:10, meaning that there would be only 228 soldiers equipped to deal with the dragons, okay, that’s manageable, but if they have a fighter jet or two the dragons would be forced to ground level in order to avoid getting turned to Swiss cheese.
Plus if we are talking about nukes, the one place people would be ok with nuking is down at the bottom of a deep cave. Down at the bottom of abandoned mines is pretty much the only place it's acceptable to test nuclear weapons in the current climate. That little gem would get liquified.
It’s completely immune to necrotic damage, so radiation would do jack, also the cave I used as an example is known to be flooded and connected to other underwater caves, the military REALLY should not nuke the thing, who knows how far the radiation can reach through the water.
As has been stated before, nukes are not just necrotic or any one damage type. At the very least, they are blugeoning, necrotic, fire, thunder, and radiant damage. It really doesn't make any sense to say they are just necrotic, as they cause massive explosions.
Also the European Union’s military size as of 2020 is more than 2 million, let’s say it’s 2.5 with the rest of Europe’s forces, that’s actually not a lot, let’s say Faerun has at minimum 1,000 dragons, that would be at most 2,500 military personal dealing with each dragon, with eruope's tooth to tail ratio, which is soldier that is armed for combat and non combatant roles is 1:10, meaning that there would be only 228 soldiers equipped to deal with the dragons, okay, that’s manageable, but if they have a fighter jet or two the dragons would be forced to ground level in order to avoid getting turned to Swiss cheese.
So! We're talking about caves! For some of the smaller dragons who are lucky enough to find them, they'll be great lairs. But for a dracolich? It's Gargantuan, right? How are you gonna find a cave that can accommodate such a large dragon (while also being secure enough for all of the dragon's things and weird enough to make it hard for the dragon's enemies to enter?). That's a lot of constraints that the cave has to fit under, and again, like some have voiced, the dragons don't know our world. They don't know where all of the caves are, for heaven's sake. In reality, there's going to be maybe one or two lucky dragons that find caves suitable for them. You can't really make your own cave, either, right? The dragons don't really know how to work our explosives, and Fire Breath doesn't do much against rock. A pure ten-plus feet of rock.
Additionally, would humans really care if a sole dracolich went and hid in the ground (assuming they're part of the challenge?) I think they wouldn't, especially if they've knocked out the rest of the dragons. They outnumber it (I'll account for some casualties in the human-dragon war) 7.5 billion to one, and it's powerful, but it's going to die - we will nuke that area after telling people to evacuate. And its minions? "Oh, no, a zombie with 20 hit points! We have a thousand commoners with rifles! Gee, I wonder who's going to win..."
Such caves already exist and legend lore would probably cover it if they don’t have any other spells or dragons don’t use a free computer somewhere to search it up. Also blue dragons take offence to that, it’s not a cave, but it’s gonna be hard as hell to detect, especially as it collapses on itself, also stone doesn’t have fire resistance, so in theory the dragon could actually melt through the stone against the threshold, they could also just repeatedly hit the stone until it chips, grab it with their mouth and spit it out of their burrow, acid dragons could this easily.
Also we’ve all mentioned it’s only Europe's Military so it’s actually only a couple million, maybe 10, which is significantly smaller than a billion, with Europe not even having that many people. What’s stopping a dragon being in a civilian population from just… I dunno, shapechanging and just go with the crowd, especially if they took someone’s identity, congrats, you wasted a nuke and a entire town, and the dragon is nowhere to be seen.
Also, why are you people so obsessed with the military being this hyper omnipresent being capable of surrounding anything the moment they detect its presence? Europe has tons of forests and all sorts of cover, terrain and the likes, 1000 soldiers being able to completely surround a dragon from all sides with it being completely flat sounds more like a premade kill zone, not an area where you would actually find a dragon. Same with a zombie, I feel like you just say “oh humans win” with zero assumptions that the zombie could do anything, my bringing up of zombies implies that the zombies would be made deep in a cave to defend a soul gem, a zombie would be scary due to the fact that you can’t just immediately surround it in a cave with zero flat terrain, you have no dark vision and the thing can’t even die from headshots and keeps coming back unless it just gives up, now add a couple dozen of them, all who are very much dead civilians, and put them everywhere in the cave, now you have to deal with figuring out of that corpse is actually a corpse.
Europe can’t even feed every civilian properly in a war, let alone be this hyper efficient even after uniting temporarily to fight dragons.
Yes, dragons begin a war with all of Europe, and the best use of their time is slowly digging out a cave using their mouths.
You forget that the military has radar and similar technologies that would allow them to easily find the massive, colorful beasts rampaging through the countryside.
Also, zombies are not difficult to kill. Two attacks will kill one (and any others in the burst fire area). They have undead fortitude, but that has less than a 50% chance of success, so one more attack would probably kill them. They also barely do any damage.
Well what did Germany do before the Invasion of Normandy? Make a bunch of stupid big rooms to get cover and add obstructions against ships? Nah that would never work to murder an insane amount of men, they're clearly idiots.
Well it’ll probably take a few hours for them to figure out where the initial locations of each dragon were during Day 0, seeing cameras are not just gonna automatically target dragons like their sentient machines. Also radar doesn’t work that well underground, where you would find giant rocks everywhere, pipe and electrical lines and… oh the blue dragons could just bite on the funny lines and cause an entire blackout, it would take days for that to be fixed, that would honestly be a great strategy once they figure out the lines are giving power to a town.
Zombies do the equivalent damage of a mace and a bit more, while it won’t kill a soldier that would be more than enough to require medical assistance. Their danger is in enclosed environments, so using them to pick off small groups searching for a dragon would probably be somewhat decent, a kill ratio of 1:3 is still good enough when they could just be brought back. Also dragons could possibly have access to summon elemental spells now that I think about it, yea a fire elemental would be devastating if any dragon has access to it, unlikely, but it’s a idea.
Anyways back on the undead, ghouls and ghasts would be a tad more effective at dispatching the soldiers, even if their a little squisher, paralysis would completely doom a soldier while the ghast's stench would cripple a group's accuracy if they were to be close together, also wights would be great for self sustaining undead hordes, not to mention the paranoia from having dead people come back. Which is probably enough for the dragon to relocate to a safer location like the densest parts of a forest near a city.
Of course, zombies with only melee attacks and other weak undead are definitely comparable to heavy machine guns and fortifications. Why didn't I think of that? As for a zombie doing significant damage, I'll be generous and compare and elite soldier to a warrior veteran. Yeah that is not much damage. Don't forget that they have literal bulletproof armor, so the zombies will have a very low hit rate. As for ghasts, stench wouldn't do much, as they could just use burst fire. They would almost never paralyze anybody, as even if they hit, the soldier still gets a save with a >50% chance of success.
Also the European Union’s military size as of 2020 is more than 2 million, let’s say it’s 2.5 with the rest of Europe’s forces, that’s actually not a lot, let’s say Faerun has at minimum 1,000 dragons, that would be at most 2,500 military personal dealing with each dragon, with eruope's tooth to tail ratio, which is soldier that is armed for combat and non combatant roles is 1:10, meaning that there would be only 228 soldiers equipped to deal with the dragons, okay, that’s manageable, but if they have a fighter jet or two the dragons would be forced to ground level in order to avoid getting turned to Swiss cheese.
Also the European Union’s military size as of 2020 is more than 2 million, let’s say it’s 2.5 with the rest of Europe’s forces, that’s actually not a lot, let’s say Faerun has at minimum 1,000 dragons, that would be at most 2,500 military personal dealing with each dragon, with eruope's tooth to tail ratio, which is soldier that is armed for combat and non combatant roles is 1:10, meaning that there would be only 228 soldiers equipped to deal with the dragons, okay, that’s manageable, but if they have a fighter jet or two the dragons would be forced to ground level in order to avoid getting turned to Swiss cheese.
Exactly. The tanks would then kill them.
Easy the dragons would destroy them.
That would be a great strategy, except for the fact that a tank could kill the dragon from a mile away.
Of course, zombies with only melee attacks and other weak undead are definitely comparable to heavy machine guns and fortifications. Why didn't I think of that? As for a zombie doing significant damage, I'll be generous and compare and elite soldier to a warrior veteran. Yeah that is not much damage. Don't forget that they have literal bulletproof armor, so the zombies will have a very low hit rate. As for ghasts, stench wouldn't do much, as they could just use burst fire. They would almost never paralyze anybody, as even if they hit, the soldier still gets a save with a >50% chance of success.
Bullet proof is not everything proof, unless they have concrete plates they are well known to be easily ripped apart by basic knifes. Also the first point was about dragons making their own home fortifications not being worthless, but that was my fault honestly, yea the zombies are unlikely to hit but no single zombie is a real threat, it’s more about a horde of them attacking in a forest or cavern, their unlikely to be a genuine threat compared to a dragon but will still have to be focused on as trying to aim while getting wrestle by dead bodies is not fun.
Also the European Union’s military size as of 2020 is more than 2 million, let’s say it’s 2.5 with the rest of Europe’s forces, that’s actually not a lot, let’s say Faerun has at minimum 1,000 dragons, that would be at most 2,500 military personal dealing with each dragon, with eruope's tooth to tail ratio, which is soldier that is armed for combat and non combatant roles is 1:10, meaning that there would be only 228 soldiers equipped to deal with the dragons, okay, that’s manageable, but if they have a fighter jet or two the dragons would be forced to ground level in order to avoid getting turned to Swiss cheese.
Exactly. The tanks would then kill them.
Alright not sarcastically, it really depends on where the dragon finds the tank, is it in a forest, urban area or a plains like area? A forest would likely be home of a green dragon, which could possibly get on top of the tank and disable the guns, making it so the tank can’t really do anything.
Depending on what type of tank it is, all dragons could genuinely attempt to topple said tanks or tear a large enough opening for a breath attack, any tank would have to be accompanied by soldiers with grenade launchers and other heavy guns in order to get the dragon off the tank, seeing that in close range a dragon could easily dispatch one.
Tanks rarely operate on their own. They generally operate in platoons. They have advanced sensors. And radios that allow them to communicate with forces miles away. And are also used in conjunction with infantry, lighter vehicles, and air support. So a dragon might manage to attack one tank by surprise (but is very unlikely to be able to kill one) before it gets hit by the main guns of three other tanks.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Tanks rarely operate on their own. They generally operate in platoons. They have advanced sensors. And radios that allow them to communicate with forces miles away. And are also used in conjunction with infantry, lighter vehicles, and air support. So a dragon might manage to attack one tank by surprise (but is very unlikely to be able to kill one) before it gets hit by the main guns of three other tanks.
Alright yea that answers my question nicely, how accurate are tanks from far away, would you say the main barrel or the machine guns are more accurate?
I know they can occasionally flip from terrain problems but how much force is needed to flip the tank raw strength wise? I think most dragons would be able to blind or damage the tank's sensory systems so if they can’t destroy the tank they might be able to just blind the tanks to a state where they can’t get a proper shot off.
Plus if we are talking about nukes, the one place people would be ok with nuking is down at the bottom of a deep cave. Down at the bottom of abandoned mines is pretty much the only place it's acceptable to test nuclear weapons in the current climate. That little gem would get liquified.
It’s completely immune to necrotic damage, so radiation would do jack, also the cave I used as an example is known to be flooded and connected to other underwater caves, the military REALLY should not nuke the thing, who knows how far the radiation can reach through the water.
radiation is radiant damage...... I mean obviously... just look at the common root, and the Sickening Radiance spell, or that gamma rays are EMR just like visible light. nukes don't actually release much in terms of isotopes into the environment. Sort of the whole point of them bomb part is that it uses up the radioactive elements. Hiroshima and Nagasaki are safe to visit and home to > 1 million people. Nuking some cave in some random mountains in the middle of no where wouldn't be an issue.
Tanks rarely operate on their own. They generally operate in platoons. They have advanced sensors. And radios that allow them to communicate with forces miles away. And are also used in conjunction with infantry, lighter vehicles, and air support. So a dragon might manage to attack one tank by surprise (but is very unlikely to be able to kill one) before it gets hit by the main guns of three other tanks.
Alright yea that answers my question nicely, how accurate are tanks from far away, would you say the main barrel or the machine guns are more accurate?
I know they can occasionally flip from terrain problems but how much force is needed to flip the tank raw strength wise? I think most dragons would be able to blind or damage the tank's sensory systems so if they can’t destroy the tank they might be able to just blind the tanks to a state where they can’t get a proper shot off.
LOL you're really desperate now aren't you. Tanks aren't so good at shooting upwards (they can but that's not their optimal use), and their fire rate is too slow for fast moving enemies. Hence why I brought up anti-aircraft weaponry which have a higher fire rate so even if accuracy isn't great the sheer number of projectiles ensures sufficient damage to bring down armoured war planes. They also are generally effective both pointed horizontally and vertically. Plus they are usually faster than tanks. Dragons are much slower than aircraft though, so tanks probably would also work, but anti-aircraft weapons would be better, and heat-seeking missiles better still. Flipping over a tank is a stupid attack plan, the dragons would be turned into pin cushions on the approach. No way a dragon can land next to a dragon grab hold of it and flip it over before the tank blasts it point-blank in the face.
radiation is radiant damage...... I mean obviously... just look at the common root, and the Sickening Radiance spell, or that gamma rays are EMR just like visible light. nukes don't actually release much in terms of isotopes into the environment. Sort of the whole point of them bomb part is that it uses up the radioactive elements. Hiroshima and Nagasaki are safe to visit and home to > 1 million people. Nuking some cave in some random mountains in the middle of no where wouldn't be an issue.
I think radiation is actually both damage types in different scenarios, with radiant being the initial blast sheering off your skin and the raw force of the radiation, but the radiation that stays in your body and gives cancer would probably be necrotic, so the nuke could destroy the gem if it managed to get to the gem's close location, yea most nukes would work against regular dragons, no need to say otherwise. But the cave I specifically used is connected to several rivers and other caves with sources of water, so France would have to warn the public about possible radiation spikes in certain areas.
The hundred kilotons of modern nukes might not be able to damage the gem given the process of going into the cave is already time consuming, the nuke itself might only go to the initial layers of the cave before it not being feasible to continue, at which case the eruption might damage the gem but it’s not guaranteed to destroy it when a kiloton isn’t able to reach half the depth of the cave used.
radiation is radiant damage...... I mean obviously... just look at the common root, and the Sickening Radiance spell, or that gamma rays are EMR just like visible light. nukes don't actually release much in terms of isotopes into the environment. Sort of the whole point of them bomb part is that it uses up the radioactive elements. Hiroshima and Nagasaki are safe to visit and home to > 1 million people. Nuking some cave in some random mountains in the middle of no where wouldn't be an issue.
I think radiation is actually both damage types in different scenarios, with radiant being the initial blast sheering off your skin and the raw force of the radiation, but the radiation that stays in your body and gives cancer would probably be necrotic, so the nuke could destroy the gem if it managed to get to the gem's close location, yea most nukes would work against regular dragons, no need to say otherwise. But the cave I specifically used is connected to several rivers and other caves with sources of water, so France would have to warn the public about possible radiation spikes in certain areas.
The hundred kilotons of modern nukes might not be able to damage the gem given the process of going into the cave is already time consuming, the nuke itself might only go to the initial layers of the cave before it not being feasible to continue, at which case the eruption might damage the gem but it’s not guaranteed to destroy it when a kiloton isn’t able to reach half the depth of the cave used.
Alright yea that answers my question nicely, how accurate are tanks from far away, would you say the main barrel or the machine guns are more accurate?
I know they can occasionally flip from terrain problems but how much force is needed to flip the tank raw strength wise? I think most dragons would be able to blind or damage the tank's sensory systems so if they can’t destroy the tank they might be able to just blind the tanks to a state where they can’t get a proper shot off.
LOL you're really desperate now aren't you. Tanks aren't so good at shooting upwards (they can but that's not their optimal use), and their fire rate is too slow for fast moving enemies. Hence why I brought up anti-aircraft weaponry which have a higher fire rate so even if accuracy isn't great the sheer number of projectiles ensures sufficient damage to bring down armoured war planes. They also are generally effective both pointed horizontally and vertically. Plus they are usually faster than tanks. Dragons are much slower than aircraft though, so tanks probably would also work, but anti-aircraft weapons would be better, and heat-seeking missiles better still. Flipping over a tank is a stupid attack plan, the dragons would be turned into pin cushions on the approach. No way a dragon can land next to a dragon grab hold of it and flip it over before the tank blasts it point-blank in the face.
Hey you don’t see me saying your side is grasping for straws every second, how about you actually answer the questions?
Dragons can absolutely tank a blast in the face, several in fact, even if you say the barrel deals 10d10 bludgeoning damage, it needs at least 5 shots to kill a red dragon dead, and what makes you assume the dragon would just face the barrel of the tank? Why not go to the side and just try to push it from there, you wouldn’t go trying to push a bull from the front, you would go from the side. Also red dragons would actually be able to shred tank armor, looking at their to hit, even if tanks have an AC of 23, Reds have the capability to deal decent damage to one, maybe even damage to threads in order to slow it down.
All they need is good momentum and uneven terrain to cause a tank to tip even slightly, it certainly won’t be fun for the crew inside.
radiation is radiant damage...... I mean obviously... just look at the common root, and the Sickening Radiance spell, or that gamma rays are EMR just like visible light. nukes don't actually release much in terms of isotopes into the environment. Sort of the whole point of them bomb part is that it uses up the radioactive elements. Hiroshima and Nagasaki are safe to visit and home to > 1 million people. Nuking some cave in some random mountains in the middle of no where wouldn't be an issue.
I think radiation is actually both damage types in different scenarios, with radiant being the initial blast sheering off your skin and the raw force of the radiation, but the radiation that stays in your body and gives cancer would probably be necrotic, so the nuke could destroy the gem if it managed to get to the gem's close location, yea most nukes would work against regular dragons, no need to say otherwise. But the cave I specifically used is connected to several rivers and other caves with sources of water, so France would have to warn the public about possible radiation spikes in certain areas.
The hundred kilotons of modern nukes might not be able to damage the gem given the process of going into the cave is already time consuming, the nuke itself might only go to the initial layers of the cave before it not being feasible to continue, at which case the eruption might damage the gem but it’s not guaranteed to destroy it when a kiloton isn’t able to reach half the depth of the cave used.
A nuke could make it further than a dragon.
Not when it’s being carried by a bunch of people forced to cave dive, especially when they need frequent breaks for carrying the literal payload. The Draco Lich can fly and has zero need for rest so it could go as long as it needs to go. Also I feel like a bunk buster would be a better fit than a nuke, since if you irradiate the entire cave and fail to destroy the gem, you kinda just helped it in the long run, since you also have to deal with radiation.
Yea using a bunker buster is a much better idea honestly, why wouldn’t they use that instead, seeing that they're actually designed to penetrate through the ground and could be repeated without needed to be dragged through the cave, you would still need one very strong one though, seeing most of them won’t be capable of burrowing anywhere close to that deep (only 20-30 meters deep max, not counting actual explosion radius).
Zombies are utterly pathetic creatures, just look at all the zombies in media, you need a swarm of 50+ to kill some ordinary people armed with baseball bats.
Yes, dragons begin a war with all of Europe, and the best use of their time is slowly digging out a cave using their mouths.
You forget that the military has radar and similar technologies that would allow them to easily find the massive, colorful beasts rampaging through the countryside.
Also, zombies are not difficult to kill. Two attacks will kill one (and any others in the burst fire area). They have undead fortitude, but that has less than a 50% chance of success, so one more attack would probably kill them. They also barely do any damage.
It’s completely immune to necrotic damage, so radiation would do jack, also the cave I used as an example is known to be flooded and connected to other underwater caves, the military REALLY should not nuke the thing, who knows how far the radiation can reach through the water.
Well what did Germany do before the Invasion of Normandy? Make a bunch of stupid big rooms to get cover and add obstructions against ships? Nah that would never work to murder an insane amount of men, they're clearly idiots.
Well it’ll probably take a few hours for them to figure out where the initial locations of each dragon were during Day 0, seeing cameras are not just gonna automatically target dragons like their sentient machines. Also radar doesn’t work that well underground, where you would find giant rocks everywhere, pipe and electrical lines and… oh the blue dragons could just bite on the funny lines and cause an entire blackout, it would take days for that to be fixed, that would honestly be a great strategy once they figure out the lines are giving power to a town.
Zombies do the equivalent damage of a mace and a bit more, while it won’t kill a soldier that would be more than enough to require medical assistance. Their danger is in enclosed environments, so using them to pick off small groups searching for a dragon would probably be somewhat decent, a kill ratio of 1:3 is still good enough when they could just be brought back. Also dragons could possibly have access to summon elemental spells now that I think about it, yea a fire elemental would be devastating if any dragon has access to it, unlikely, but it’s a idea.
Anyways back on the undead, ghouls and ghasts would be a tad more effective at dispatching the soldiers, even if their a little squisher, paralysis would completely doom a soldier while the ghast's stench would cripple a group's accuracy if they were to be close together, also wights would be great for self sustaining undead hordes, not to mention the paranoia from having dead people come back. Which is probably enough for the dragon to relocate to a safer location like the densest parts of a forest near a city.
Also the European Union’s military size as of 2020 is more than 2 million, let’s say it’s 2.5 with the rest of Europe’s forces, that’s actually not a lot, let’s say Faerun has at minimum 1,000 dragons, that would be at most 2,500 military personal dealing with each dragon, with eruope's tooth to tail ratio, which is soldier that is armed for combat and non combatant roles is 1:10, meaning that there would be only 228 soldiers equipped to deal with the dragons, okay, that’s manageable, but if they have a fighter jet or two the dragons would be forced to ground level in order to avoid getting turned to Swiss cheese.
As has been stated before, nukes are not just necrotic or any one damage type. At the very least, they are blugeoning, necrotic, fire, thunder, and radiant damage. It really doesn't make any sense to say they are just necrotic, as they cause massive explosions.
Exactly. The tanks would then kill them.
Of course, zombies with only melee attacks and other weak undead are definitely comparable to heavy machine guns and fortifications. Why didn't I think of that? As for a zombie doing significant damage, I'll be generous and compare and elite soldier to a warrior veteran. Yeah that is not much damage. Don't forget that they have literal bulletproof armor, so the zombies will have a very low hit rate. As for ghasts, stench wouldn't do much, as they could just use burst fire. They would almost never paralyze anybody, as even if they hit, the soldier still gets a save with a >50% chance of success.
Easy the dragons would destroy them.
That would be a great strategy, except for the fact that a tank could kill the dragon from a mile away.
Bullet proof is not everything proof, unless they have concrete plates they are well known to be easily ripped apart by basic knifes. Also the first point was about dragons making their own home fortifications not being worthless, but that was my fault honestly, yea the zombies are unlikely to hit but no single zombie is a real threat, it’s more about a horde of them attacking in a forest or cavern, their unlikely to be a genuine threat compared to a dragon but will still have to be focused on as trying to aim while getting wrestle by dead bodies is not fun.
Alright not sarcastically, it really depends on where the dragon finds the tank, is it in a forest, urban area or a plains like area? A forest would likely be home of a green dragon, which could possibly get on top of the tank and disable the guns, making it so the tank can’t really do anything.
Depending on what type of tank it is, all dragons could genuinely attempt to topple said tanks or tear a large enough opening for a breath attack, any tank would have to be accompanied by soldiers with grenade launchers and other heavy guns in order to get the dragon off the tank, seeing that in close range a dragon could easily dispatch one.
Tanks rarely operate on their own. They generally operate in platoons. They have advanced sensors. And radios that allow them to communicate with forces miles away. And are also used in conjunction with infantry, lighter vehicles, and air support. So a dragon might manage to attack one tank by surprise (but is very unlikely to be able to kill one) before it gets hit by the main guns of three other tanks.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Alright yea that answers my question nicely, how accurate are tanks from far away, would you say the main barrel or the machine guns are more accurate?
I know they can occasionally flip from terrain problems but how much force is needed to flip the tank raw strength wise? I think most dragons would be able to blind or damage the tank's sensory systems so if they can’t destroy the tank they might be able to just blind the tanks to a state where they can’t get a proper shot off.
radiation is radiant damage...... I mean obviously... just look at the common root, and the Sickening Radiance spell, or that gamma rays are EMR just like visible light. nukes don't actually release much in terms of isotopes into the environment. Sort of the whole point of them bomb part is that it uses up the radioactive elements. Hiroshima and Nagasaki are safe to visit and home to > 1 million people. Nuking some cave in some random mountains in the middle of no where wouldn't be an issue.
LOL you're really desperate now aren't you. Tanks aren't so good at shooting upwards (they can but that's not their optimal use), and their fire rate is too slow for fast moving enemies. Hence why I brought up anti-aircraft weaponry which have a higher fire rate so even if accuracy isn't great the sheer number of projectiles ensures sufficient damage to bring down armoured war planes. They also are generally effective both pointed horizontally and vertically. Plus they are usually faster than tanks. Dragons are much slower than aircraft though, so tanks probably would also work, but anti-aircraft weapons would be better, and heat-seeking missiles better still. Flipping over a tank is a stupid attack plan, the dragons would be turned into pin cushions on the approach. No way a dragon can land next to a dragon grab hold of it and flip it over before the tank blasts it point-blank in the face.
I think radiation is actually both damage types in different scenarios, with radiant being the initial blast sheering off your skin and the raw force of the radiation, but the radiation that stays in your body and gives cancer would probably be necrotic, so the nuke could destroy the gem if it managed to get to the gem's close location, yea most nukes would work against regular dragons, no need to say otherwise. But the cave I specifically used is connected to several rivers and other caves with sources of water, so France would have to warn the public about possible radiation spikes in certain areas.
The hundred kilotons of modern nukes might not be able to damage the gem given the process of going into the cave is already time consuming, the nuke itself might only go to the initial layers of the cave before it not being feasible to continue, at which case the eruption might damage the gem but it’s not guaranteed to destroy it when a kiloton isn’t able to reach half the depth of the cave used.
A nuke could make it further than a dragon.
Hey you don’t see me saying your side is grasping for straws every second, how about you actually answer the questions?
Dragons can absolutely tank a blast in the face, several in fact, even if you say the barrel deals 10d10 bludgeoning damage, it needs at least 5 shots to kill a red dragon dead, and what makes you assume the dragon would just face the barrel of the tank? Why not go to the side and just try to push it from there, you wouldn’t go trying to push a bull from the front, you would go from the side. Also red dragons would actually be able to shred tank armor, looking at their to hit, even if tanks have an AC of 23, Reds have the capability to deal decent damage to one, maybe even damage to threads in order to slow it down.
All they need is good momentum and uneven terrain to cause a tank to tip even slightly, it certainly won’t be fun for the crew inside.
Not when it’s being carried by a bunch of people forced to cave dive, especially when they need frequent breaks for carrying the literal payload. The Draco Lich can fly and has zero need for rest so it could go as long as it needs to go. Also I feel like a bunk buster would be a better fit than a nuke, since if you irradiate the entire cave and fail to destroy the gem, you kinda just helped it in the long run, since you also have to deal with radiation.
Yea using a bunker buster is a much better idea honestly, why wouldn’t they use that instead, seeing that they're actually designed to penetrate through the ground and could be repeated without needed to be dragged through the cave, you would still need one very strong one though, seeing most of them won’t be capable of burrowing anywhere close to that deep (only 20-30 meters deep max, not counting actual explosion radius).