Have a somewhat odd Monk build I’m about to start, and curious to hear folks’ input for Origin Feat.
Alert vs. Tavern Brawler vs. Tough
2024 rules, Warrior of Mercy Monk. 14 CON. Species is a Mushroomfolk that has one cast of Bless per long rest. Party is me, Rogue, Wizard, and undecided likely gish.
Really I’m between Alert & Tough. On the one hand, Tough seems sorely-needed to fill in low HP on a build that starts fairly weak defensively for a melee. On the other, getting Bless up right away for max benefit seems ideal, plus winning Initiative could save HP from killing things quicker?
Mercy Monk also has variety of healing & debuff options, plus Monk’s usual damage evading package.
Personally I'd go with Tough — it's not a very exciting or interesting feat, but I feel like you'd feel the lack of those extra HP more than you'd feel the lack of Initiative bonuses from Alert. As a Monk you presumably already have a very high Dexterity, so you don't need help with Initiative as much as you need help with staying alive.
Tavern Brawler is not bad in general, but half of it is probably useless to most Monks, and it doesn't have any defensive benefits — which, again, feels like what you need the most.
I agree with Wagnarokkr, though it is one of the best feats for a monk. Actually, with humans, you can get both alert and tough, and heroic inspiration
"The Biggest problem D&D player face is their own bad decisions." "What doesn't kill you makes you more likely to die."- Thauraeln_The_Bol "Well, hey, if it ain't broke, then break it!"Former_Queen_Yvonne See my homebrew spells, monsters, and this thread part of the cult of science, and the Cult of the Nothic, and plays on Tenbrae Sine Fine Please help us!!! (Link) Nickname is Colton. PM ME THE WORD TOMATO. The best name for the mad gibber
Good stuff. Yeah, hard to not take my medicine, so to speak, with Tough. It’s the safe choice. Alert is just so much more dynamic, especially since you can trade it now. Lots of synergy potential.
Another reason to go early in this party: setup sneak attack for our Rogue. Maybe if they or someone else took Alert and we planned to switch for those purposes, that would free me up for Tough. Dunno.
Good stuff. Yeah, hard to not take my medicine, so to speak, with Tough. It’s the safe choice. Alert is just so much more dynamic, especially since you can trade it now. Lots of synergy potential.
Another reason to go early in this party: setup sneak attack for our Rogue. Maybe if they or someone else took Alert and we planned to switch for those purposes, that would free me up for Tough. Dunno.
What level are you playing?
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"The Biggest problem D&D player face is their own bad decisions." "What doesn't kill you makes you more likely to die."- Thauraeln_The_Bol "Well, hey, if it ain't broke, then break it!"Former_Queen_Yvonne See my homebrew spells, monsters, and this thread part of the cult of science, and the Cult of the Nothic, and plays on Tenbrae Sine Fine Please help us!!! (Link) Nickname is Colton. PM ME THE WORD TOMATO. The best name for the mad gibber
IMO, you should take the one that you think will be more fun. D&D just isn't that hard a game at most tables; the monk's natural AC and extant abilities will likely be enough.
If you really feel you need to fit your choice to be more effective, consider how you're going to be playing the character:
If you're playing the monk as a highly-mobile striker, Alert lets you hit the ground running, getting to the primary target before the enemy can stop you. Because you'll be using your mobility, you'll be able to avoid going toe-to-toe with heavy hitters, so don't need the HP.
If you're playing it as a front-line combatant, tough will give you more staying power.
But, as I said, either one is viable. I played an old monk through the first 6ish levels before we moved to 24 rules, and, despite being one of the party's front-line fighters, I never went down in a fight.
Good stuff. Yeah, hard to not take my medicine, so to speak, with Tough. It’s the safe choice. Alert is just so much more dynamic, especially since you can trade it now. Lots of synergy potential.
Another reason to go early in this party: setup sneak attack for our Rogue. Maybe if they or someone else took Alert and we planned to switch for those purposes, that would free me up for Tough. Dunno.
IMO, you should take the one that you think will be more fun. D&D just isn't that hard a game at most tables; the monk's natural AC and extant abilities will likely be enough.
If you really feel you need to fit your choice to be more effective, consider how you're going to be playing the character:
If you're playing the monk as a highly-mobile striker, Alert lets you hit the ground running, getting to the primary target before the enemy can stop you. Because you'll be using your mobility, you'll be able to avoid going toe-to-toe with heavy hitters, so don't need the HP.
If you're playing it as a front-line combatant, tough will give you more staying power.
But, as I said, either one is viable. I played an old monk through the first 6ish levels before we moved to 24 rules, and, despite being one of the party's front-line fighters, I never went down in a fight.
Good to know. For us at the moment there is no clear frontliner. I figured I'd have to commit to some of that. And if I'm going to help the Rogue get their sneak attack, I will have to be in one place at a time by an enemy or two much of the time.
Tough would mean a starting HP of 36 at level 3 instead of 30. So +6. Might earlier initiative often equate to saving that 6 HP by killing or neutralizing enemies quicker? I have the potential for good damage output: 3 attacks + a Hand of Harm 1d6 (cost 2 focus points), if I really wanted to end someone. But additionally, at level 5 I get Stunning Strike, and level 6 my Hand of Harm now auto-poisons anything not immune, giving them disadvantage on attacks. Between that, the Deflect Attacks and Bonus Action Dodge, I am tempted to think I could forgo that extra 6-12 HP... 😬
Good stuff. Yeah, hard to not take my medicine, so to speak, with Tough. It’s the safe choice. Alert is just so much more dynamic, especially since you can trade it now. Lots of synergy potential.
Another reason to go early in this party: setup sneak attack for our Rogue. Maybe if they or someone else took Alert and we planned to switch for those purposes, that would free me up for Tough. Dunno.
IMO, you should take the one that you think will be more fun. D&D just isn't that hard a game at most tables; the monk's natural AC and extant abilities will likely be enough.
If you really feel you need to fit your choice to be more effective, consider how you're going to be playing the character:
If you're playing the monk as a highly-mobile striker, Alert lets you hit the ground running, getting to the primary target before the enemy can stop you. Because you'll be using your mobility, you'll be able to avoid going toe-to-toe with heavy hitters, so don't need the HP.
If you're playing it as a front-line combatant, tough will give you more staying power.
But, as I said, either one is viable. I played an old monk through the first 6ish levels before we moved to 24 rules, and, despite being one of the party's front-line fighters, I never went down in a fight.
Good to know. For us at the moment there is no clear frontliner. I figured I'd have to commit to some of that. And if I'm going to help the Rogue get their sneak attack, I will have to be in one place at a time by an enemy or two much of the time.
Tough would mean a starting HP of 36 at level 3 instead of 30. So +6. Might earlier initiative often equate to saving that 6 HP by killing or neutralizing enemies quicker? I have the potential for good damage output: 3 attacks + a Hand of Harm 1d6 (cost 2 focus points), if I really wanted to end someone. But additionally, at level 5 I get Stunning Strike, and level 6 my Hand of Harm now auto-poisons anything not immune, giving them disadvantage on attacks. Between that, the Deflect Attacks and Bonus Action Dodge, I am tempted to think I could forgo that extra 6 HP... 😬
But at higher levels levels tough gives 40 extra HP, that amount of extra HP is insane, alert is good, but with that high initiative, you're going to get hit more, which is really bad for a monk. It also makes the two a good combo
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"The Biggest problem D&D player face is their own bad decisions." "What doesn't kill you makes you more likely to die."- Thauraeln_The_Bol "Well, hey, if it ain't broke, then break it!"Former_Queen_Yvonne See my homebrew spells, monsters, and this thread part of the cult of science, and the Cult of the Nothic, and plays on Tenbrae Sine Fine Please help us!!! (Link) Nickname is Colton. PM ME THE WORD TOMATO. The best name for the mad gibber
But at higher levels levels tough gives 40 extra HP, that amount of extra HP is insane, alert is good, but with that high initiative, you're going to get hit more, which is really bad for a monk. It also makes the two a good combo
Mmm true. Though full 40 is not til level 20. And for some reason I am worried less about later levels, at least for a Monk build. Proficiency in all saves (many of which reduce damage), plus paying a FP to re-roll failed saves. Level 18, a Monk can get resistance to all damage but Force for 3 FPs. Also for a Mercy Monk, you can always self-heal. Flurry of Healing at level 11 means you can heal a lot of damage with one FP.
To your point though, aren't monsters in the 2024 manual a bit tougher? Stronger & more HP?
But at higher levels levels tough gives 40 extra HP, that amount of extra HP is insane, alert is good, but with that high initiative, you're going to get hit more, which is really bad for a monk. It also makes the two a good combo
Mmm true. Though full 40 is not til level 20. And for some reason I am worried less about later levels, at least for a Monk build. Proficiency in all saves (many of which reduce damage), plus paying a FP to re-roll failed saves. Level 18, a Monk can get resistance to BPS for 3 FPs. Also for a Mercy Monk, you can always self-heal. Flurry of Healing at level 11 means you can heal a lot of damage with on FP.
To your point though, aren't monsters in the 2024 manual a bit tougher? Stronger & more HP?
Yes, they still deal the same amount of damage but have more health, one of the main reasons that you need a high HP is if you can get a monk anow HP then they can whip the board
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"The Biggest problem D&D player face is their own bad decisions." "What doesn't kill you makes you more likely to die."- Thauraeln_The_Bol "Well, hey, if it ain't broke, then break it!"Former_Queen_Yvonne See my homebrew spells, monsters, and this thread part of the cult of science, and the Cult of the Nothic, and plays on Tenbrae Sine Fine Please help us!!! (Link) Nickname is Colton. PM ME THE WORD TOMATO. The best name for the mad gibber
I would go with Tough, unless you want to wait until 19th level and take the boon with the same results. Or double down again with the boon.
The hit points are nice and very useful, but the reason why I would not take Alert is the following:
If someone else in the group has it (or more) they added the trade off of swapping places. If you want to go first, and lose to someone who does anyway.
Also at higher levels, the initiative bonus monsters have are insane, and unless you multi- class with say ranger gloom stalker to add wisdom ( and have alert and dex) chances are (just by stats - you are going to lose initiative anyway. So take the hps.
you will only benefit from alert at lower tiers. Then with the 20 level capstone, you are increasing dex so increasing initiative at that point.
Have a somewhat odd Monk build I’m about to start, and curious to hear folks’ input for Origin Feat.
Alert vs. Tavern Brawler vs. Tough
2024 rules, Warrior of Mercy Monk. 14 CON. Species is a Mushroomfolk that has one cast of Bless per long rest. Party is me, Rogue, Wizard, and undecided likely gish.
Really I’m between Alert & Tough. On the one hand, Tough seems sorely-needed to fill in low HP on a build that starts fairly weak defensively for a melee. On the other, getting Bless up right away for max benefit seems ideal, plus winning Initiative could save HP from killing things quicker?
Mercy Monk also has variety of healing & debuff options, plus Monk’s usual damage evading package.
Thoughts?
I'd go for Tough. Alert can be actually problematic at higher levels when the Wizard wants to Fireball the mooks without hitting your Monk. Plus it is likely the Rogue will take Alert so they can choose when they act to maximize their Sneak Attack probability. Plus thematically, a mushroom guy feels more light a tough resilient character than a hyper-alert character.
I would go with Tough, unless you want to wait until 19th level and take the boon with the same results. Or double down again with the boon.
The hit points are nice and very useful, but the reason why I would not take Alert is the following:
If someone else in the group has it (or more) they added the trade off of swapping places. If you want to go first, and lose to someone who does anyway.
Also at higher levels, the initiative bonus monsters have are insane, and unless you multi- class with say ranger gloom stalker to add wisdom ( and have alert and dex) chances are (just by stats - you are going to lose initiative anyway. So take the hps.
you will only benefit from alert at lower tiers. Then with the 20 level capstone, you are increasing dex so increasing initiative at that point.
Thats my take on the monk
Very interesting take. Yeah I’d heard 2024 enemies now have bonkers Initiative. Hard to say whether it’s important to take Alert to keep up or if that is a lost cause. Still the other main reason I’m considering it, is to get Bless up before my allies attack so they get the benefit 1st round. Not life and death but seems optimal. We have our session 0 tonight, so I’ll see who’s taking what origin feat.
Have a somewhat odd Monk build I’m about to start, and curious to hear folks’ input for Origin Feat.
Alert vs. Tavern Brawler vs. Tough
2024 rules, Warrior of Mercy Monk. 14 CON. Species is a Mushroomfolk that has one cast of Bless per long rest. Party is me, Rogue, Wizard, and undecided likely gish.
Really I’m between Alert & Tough. On the one hand, Tough seems sorely-needed to fill in low HP on a build that starts fairly weak defensively for a melee. On the other, getting Bless up right away for max benefit seems ideal, plus winning Initiative could save HP from killing things quicker?
Mercy Monk also has variety of healing & debuff options, plus Monk’s usual damage evading package.
Thoughts?
Personally I'd go with Tough — it's not a very exciting or interesting feat, but I feel like you'd feel the lack of those extra HP more than you'd feel the lack of Initiative bonuses from Alert. As a Monk you presumably already have a very high Dexterity, so you don't need help with Initiative as much as you need help with staying alive.
Tavern Brawler is not bad in general, but half of it is probably useless to most Monks, and it doesn't have any defensive benefits — which, again, feels like what you need the most.
pronouns: he/she/they
I agree with Wagnarokkr, though it is one of the best feats for a monk. Actually, with humans, you can get both alert and tough, and heroic inspiration
"The Biggest problem D&D player face is their own bad decisions." "What doesn't kill you makes you more likely to die."- Thauraeln_The_Bol "Well, hey, if it ain't broke, then break it!"Former_Queen_Yvonne
See my homebrew spells, monsters, and this thread
part of the cult of science, and the Cult of the Nothic, and plays on Tenbrae Sine Fine
Please help us!!! (Link) Nickname is Colton. PM ME THE WORD TOMATO.
The best name for the mad gibber
Good stuff. Yeah, hard to not take my medicine, so to speak, with Tough. It’s the safe choice. Alert is just so much more dynamic, especially since you can trade it now. Lots of synergy potential.
Another reason to go early in this party: setup sneak attack for our Rogue. Maybe if they or someone else took Alert and we planned to switch for those purposes, that would free me up for Tough. Dunno.
What level are you playing?
"The Biggest problem D&D player face is their own bad decisions." "What doesn't kill you makes you more likely to die."- Thauraeln_The_Bol "Well, hey, if it ain't broke, then break it!"Former_Queen_Yvonne
See my homebrew spells, monsters, and this thread
part of the cult of science, and the Cult of the Nothic, and plays on Tenbrae Sine Fine
Please help us!!! (Link) Nickname is Colton. PM ME THE WORD TOMATO.
The best name for the mad gibber
IMO, you should take the one that you think will be more fun. D&D just isn't that hard a game at most tables; the monk's natural AC and extant abilities will likely be enough.
If you really feel you need to fit your choice to be more effective, consider how you're going to be playing the character:
If you're playing the monk as a highly-mobile striker, Alert lets you hit the ground running, getting to the primary target before the enemy can stop you. Because you'll be using your mobility, you'll be able to avoid going toe-to-toe with heavy hitters, so don't need the HP.
If you're playing it as a front-line combatant, tough will give you more staying power.
But, as I said, either one is viable. I played an old monk through the first 6ish levels before we moved to 24 rules, and, despite being one of the party's front-line fighters, I never went down in a fight.
Starting level 3, goint to 20.
Good to know. For us at the moment there is no clear frontliner. I figured I'd have to commit to some of that. And if I'm going to help the Rogue get their sneak attack, I will have to be in one place at a time by an enemy or two much of the time.
Tough would mean a starting HP of 36 at level 3 instead of 30. So +6. Might earlier initiative often equate to saving that 6 HP by killing or neutralizing enemies quicker? I have the potential for good damage output: 3 attacks + a Hand of Harm 1d6 (cost 2 focus points), if I really wanted to end someone. But additionally, at level 5 I get Stunning Strike, and level 6 my Hand of Harm now auto-poisons anything not immune, giving them disadvantage on attacks. Between that, the Deflect Attacks and Bonus Action Dodge, I am tempted to think I could forgo that extra 6-12 HP... 😬
But at higher levels levels tough gives 40 extra HP, that amount of extra HP is insane, alert is good, but with that high initiative, you're going to get hit more, which is really bad for a monk. It also makes the two a good combo
"The Biggest problem D&D player face is their own bad decisions." "What doesn't kill you makes you more likely to die."- Thauraeln_The_Bol "Well, hey, if it ain't broke, then break it!"Former_Queen_Yvonne
See my homebrew spells, monsters, and this thread
part of the cult of science, and the Cult of the Nothic, and plays on Tenbrae Sine Fine
Please help us!!! (Link) Nickname is Colton. PM ME THE WORD TOMATO.
The best name for the mad gibber
Mmm true. Though full 40 is not til level 20. And for some reason I am worried less about later levels, at least for a Monk build. Proficiency in all saves (many of which reduce damage), plus paying a FP to re-roll failed saves. Level 18, a Monk can get resistance to all damage but Force for 3 FPs. Also for a Mercy Monk, you can always self-heal. Flurry of Healing at level 11 means you can heal a lot of damage with one FP.
To your point though, aren't monsters in the 2024 manual a bit tougher? Stronger & more HP?
Yes, they still deal the same amount of damage but have more health, one of the main reasons that you need a high HP is if you can get a monk anow HP then they can whip the board
"The Biggest problem D&D player face is their own bad decisions." "What doesn't kill you makes you more likely to die."- Thauraeln_The_Bol "Well, hey, if it ain't broke, then break it!"Former_Queen_Yvonne
See my homebrew spells, monsters, and this thread
part of the cult of science, and the Cult of the Nothic, and plays on Tenbrae Sine Fine
Please help us!!! (Link) Nickname is Colton. PM ME THE WORD TOMATO.
The best name for the mad gibber
I would go with Tough, unless you want to wait until 19th level and take the boon with the same results. Or double down again with the boon.
The hit points are nice and very useful, but the reason why I would not take Alert is the following:
If someone else in the group has it (or more) they added the trade off of swapping places. If you want to go first, and lose to someone who does anyway.
Also at higher levels, the initiative bonus monsters have are insane, and unless you multi- class with say ranger gloom stalker to add wisdom ( and have alert and dex) chances are (just by stats - you are going to lose initiative anyway. So take the hps.
you will only benefit from alert at lower tiers. Then with the 20 level capstone, you are increasing dex so increasing initiative at that point.
Thats my take on the monk
I'd go for Tough. Alert can be actually problematic at higher levels when the Wizard wants to Fireball the mooks without hitting your Monk. Plus it is likely the Rogue will take Alert so they can choose when they act to maximize their Sneak Attack probability. Plus thematically, a mushroom guy feels more light a tough resilient character than a hyper-alert character.
Very interesting take. Yeah I’d heard 2024 enemies now have bonkers Initiative. Hard to say whether it’s important to take Alert to keep up or if that is a lost cause. Still the other main reason I’m considering it, is to get Bless up before my allies attack so they get the benefit 1st round. Not life and death but seems optimal. We have our session 0 tonight, so I’ll see who’s taking what origin feat.