So just noticed for some reason that Cleave is restricted to 5-ft range?
That seems unduly limiting, given it’s already only once per turn and doesn’t carry your modifier damage. Other masteries have their synergies. Cleave symergizing with reach weapons, etc. seems intuitive, no?
“If you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack, you can make a second attack against a creature within 5 feet that is also within your reach. When you hit with the second attack, you can roll your weapon’s damage, but you don’t add your ability modifier unless it’s negative.”
Anyone homebrew Cleave to allow additional reach, etc?
Just to clarify, the second target has to be within 5 feet of the first target. It doesn't have to be within 5 feet of you, it just has to be within your reach. The idea is that you're doing one sweeping swing with the weapon that hits both targets, so they have to be near each other.
The actual text of that sentence is (emphasis mine):
"If you hit a creature with a melee attack roll using this weapon, you can make a melee attack roll with the weapon against a second creature within 5 feet of the first that is also within your reach."
Oof that is even more rough. I get the concept of a sweeping swing, but it also makes sense that such a sweep could hit other enemies not adjacent, IMHO. And really for gameplay I think that is way more fun.
It's an ability that gives you a second attack at level one, so there have to be some limits to keep it from being overpowered. I think it's just fine.
It's an ability that gives you a second attack at level one, so there have to be some limits to keep it from being overpowered. I think it's just fine.
Yup. It’s got other limits. Already mentioned in the OP.
Allowing it to work with just a weapon’s reach hardly makes it overpowered. Just more on par with other masteries. And rational.
Allowing it to work with a weapon’s reach hardly makes it overpowered
Good thing that it does work within a weapon's reach, then... ?
If you hit a creature with a melee attack roll using this weapon, you can make a melee attack roll with the weapon against a second creature within 5 feet of the first that is also within your reach.
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
You really seem to be struggling to let go of your incorrect interpretation here
"Within 5 feet of the first that is also within your reach" just means you can't hit a target 15 feet away with the Cleave attack from your halberd. Unless you're a bugbear, of course
If two creatures are standing next to each other 10 feet away from you, you can hit both with Cleave. They are both within your reach, and the second is within 5 feet of the first
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
In mentioning a weapon’s range, I meant simply that being the only criteria for a Cleave target, ideally. The “within 5 feet of the first” is an additional restriction in rules as written.
It's a free attack; allowing it to be on any creature in your reach with no further stipulation would be extraordinarily OP, particularly compared to the other weapon masteries. The second target needing to be within 5 feet of the first is a perfectly fair and balancing requirement.
In mentioning a weapon’s range, I meant simply that being the only criteria for a Cleave target, ideally. The “within 5 feet of the first” is an additional restriction in rules as written.
Ah, sorry about that
I don't see a problem with that limitation, but it would have been a good opportunity for something like a fighter subclass that gets Super-Masteries (or whatever you want to call it), where the Cleave attack can be against any other creature within range rather than just within 5 feet of the first. Whirling a halberd in a full 360 to get targets both to the north and south of you seems a little much at 1st level to me, though
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
In mentioning a weapon’s range, I meant simply that being the only criteria for a Cleave target, ideally. The “within 5 feet of the first” is an additional restriction in rules as written.
Ah, sorry about that
I don't see a problem with that limitation, but it would have been a good opportunity for something like a fighter subclass that gets Super-Masteries (or whatever you want to call it), where the Cleave attack can be against any other creature within range rather than just within 5 feet of the first. Whirling a halberd in a full 360 to get targets both to the north and south of you seems a little much at 1st level to me, though
I’d be down with that.
Just curious: Has anyone here used Cleave? If so, how’d it feel?
In mentioning a weapon’s range, I meant simply that being the only criteria for a Cleave target, ideally. The “within 5 feet of the first” is an additional restriction in rules as written.
Ah, sorry about that
I don't see a problem with that limitation, but it would have been a good opportunity for something like a fighter subclass that gets Super-Masteries (or whatever you want to call it), where the Cleave attack can be against any other creature within range rather than just within 5 feet of the first. Whirling a halberd in a full 360 to get targets both to the north and south of you seems a little much at 1st level to me, though
I’d be down with that.
Just curious: Has anyone here used Cleave? If so, how’d it feel?
I may be about to -- switching characters mid-campaign to barbarian, and trying to decide whether greataxe (Cleave) or greatsword (Graze) would make more sense to reskin as a chainsaw
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I have yet to see it in action in 5e, but have in other games (Pathfinder) and I believe I recall it working more or less the same in an older edition of D&D (AD&D 2nd I think?) Ultimately, it's decent, but tends to get more mileage at lower levels. Fighting multiple opponents - especially ones that simply line up in melee range - at once is more common in Tier 1 and gets less common as the game progresses, as action economy tends to lead towards fewer enemies with more attacks; singular bosses become more commonplace - where cleave is useless - and combat tends to become more spread out with enemies being more mobile.
Ultimately though, it is an extra free attack, and when the situation arises - which will never be a wholly infrequent occurrence - to use it, well, it goes pretty hard. A fighter with Polearm Master and a Halberd can make a lot of attacks.
Ultimately, it's decent, but tends to get more mileage at lower levels. Fighting multiple opponents - especially ones that simply line up in melee range - at once is more common in Tier 1 and gets less common as the game progresses, as action economy tends to lead towards fewer enemies with more attacks; singular bosses become more commonplace - where cleave is useless - and combat tends to become more spread out with enemies being more mobile.
I think this is a big part of why they've allowed changing selected weapon masteries on a long rest.
Also, a little realism for a moment - you swing that halberd in a 360 ( or rather you intend to until some idjit or 2 steps not the path).because you were intending to do the 360 you put a lot not it and get lucky hitting idjit #1, further you catch them where their armor isn’t and cut clean through ( you crit) but that cut is going to take a lot out of your swing no matter what. If there is sameness else (idjit #2) close by you have enough left to hit them as well but after that first hit you were no longer going to actually do a full 360 sweep without restarting it which means next attack action. Those lovely 360s aren’t really meant to cut a bunch of foes down they are meant to keep folks back leaving you room to wield that reach weapon.
I have yet to see it in action in 5e, but have in other games (Pathfinder) and I believe I recall it working more or less the same in an older edition of D&D (AD&D 2nd I think?) Ultimately, it's decent, but tends to get more mileage at lower levels. Fighting multiple opponents - especially ones that simply line up in melee range - at once is more common in Tier 1 and gets less common as the game progresses, as action economy tends to lead towards fewer enemies with more attacks; singular bosses become more commonplace - where cleave is useless - and combat tends to become more spread out with enemies being more mobile.
Ultimately though, it is an extra free attack, and when the situation arises - which will never be a wholly infrequent occurrence - to use it, well, it goes pretty hard. A fighter with Polearm Master and a Halberd can make a lot of attacks.
Pathfinder I actually have experience with in the Kingmaker video game. Cleave and its variations all worked with simply your range, no stipulation on where an enemy was in relation to another. The actual Cleave feat was meh, whereas the 2nd-level Cleaving Finish actually worked similar to the 2024 Cleave mastery. It was something I usually only took on a reach weapon.
Also, a little realism for a moment - you swing that halberd in a 360 ( or rather you intend to until some idjit or 2 steps not the path).because you were intending to do the 360 you put a lot not it and get lucky hitting idjit #1, further you catch them where their armor isn’t and cut clean through ( you crit) but that cut is going to take a lot out of your swing no matter what. If there is sameness else (idjit #2) close by you have enough left to hit them as well but after that first hit you were no longer going to actually do a full 360 sweep without restarting it which means next attack action. Those lovely 360s aren’t really meant to cut a bunch of foes down they are meant to keep folks back leaving you room to wield that reach weapon.
Cool background. It’s always tricky to know how realistic to be in a fantasy game like D&D.
Just with weapon masteries, there are already reaches made for cool gameplay reasons (rightly I’d say). Like any weapon that hits you hard enough/the right way could push you back or topple you or slow you or hurt your ability to defend or attack.
These masteries read like quasi-magical properties within this game system, to me at least.
Keep in mind that 5e counts diagonals as 5ft, so for a Greataxe you're threatening 4 additional spaces not 2, and with a halberd you can threaten 5 to 7.
I have yet to see it in action in 5e, but have in other games (Pathfinder) and I believe I recall it working more or less the same in an older edition of D&D (AD&D 2nd I think?) Ultimately, it's decent, but tends to get more mileage at lower levels. Fighting multiple opponents - especially ones that simply line up in melee range - at once is more common in Tier 1 and gets less common as the game progresses, as action economy tends to lead towards fewer enemies with more attacks; singular bosses become more commonplace - where cleave is useless - and combat tends to become more spread out with enemies being more mobile.
Ultimately though, it is an extra free attack, and when the situation arises - which will never be a wholly infrequent occurrence - to use it, well, it goes pretty hard. A fighter with Polearm Master and a Halberd can make a lot of attacks.
Pathfinder I actually have experience with in the Kingmaker video game. Cleave and its variations all worked with simply your range, no stipulation on where an enemy was in relation to another. The actual Cleave feat was meh, whereas the 2nd-level Cleaving Finish actually worked similar to the 2024 Cleave mastery. It was something I usually only took on a reach weapon.
Also, a little realism for a moment - you swing that halberd in a 360 ( or rather you intend to until some idjit or 2 steps not the path).because you were intending to do the 360 you put a lot not it and get lucky hitting idjit #1, further you catch them where their armor isn’t and cut clean through ( you crit) but that cut is going to take a lot out of your swing no matter what. If there is sameness else (idjit #2) close by you have enough left to hit them as well but after that first hit you were no longer going to actually do a full 360 sweep without restarting it which means next attack action. Those lovely 360s aren’t really meant to cut a bunch of foes down they are meant to keep folks back leaving you room to wield that reach weapon.
Cool background. It’s always tricky to know how realistic to be in a fantasy game like D&D.
Just with weapon masteries, there are already reaches made for cool gameplay reasons (rightly I’d say). Like any weapon that hits you hard enough/the right way could push you back or topple you or slow you or hurt your ability to defend or attack.
These masteries read like quasi-magical properties within this game system, to me at least.
Actually most are, like cleave based on real world use of the weapon: a) slow ( club, javelin, lxb, sling) - th javelin slows you down by forcing you to talk time to pull it out, same with the LXB. The club and sling do I by stunning you at least briefly. b) push (great club, pike, war hammer, hvyxb) - the great club and war hammer are massive forces hitting you and knocking you backward, the pike your shoving it into them and shoving them back with it. The hvy xbow is a bit different but also much the same. It’s like the reason the US army went to the colt .45 over the regulation .38 in 1911 - the .38 would kill a phillipine rebel tribes man but not stop them the .45 killed them and blew them back so they couldn’t cut off your head with a Kris. Same idea between the oxbow and heavy the light kills and slows, but doesn’t stop, the heavy picks you up and tosses you backward. c) Sap (flail, longsword, Morningstar, war pick) - disadvantage on next attack as your recovering from the pain/ stun of the hit - realistically this and slow could have been reversed or all 8 weapons given either but they seem to be split into sets of 4 so …. d) topple (staff, trident, lance, battleaxe and maul) - battle axe - literally cutting you down to the ground, maul smashing you down, punching KE either knocking you off your horse or sweeping your feet out like he staff and trident. e) vex and Nick - the light weapon masteries giving either advantage to the next attack or granting the extra attack be in the attack action since the attacks are fast enough because of the weapon sizes toeiher beat the defenses or get in an extra attack. they are all based ( if somewhat exaggerated) on real world uses and effects of the weapons.
A note on realism vs fantasy - yes it’s a fantasy game and many things are overblown, especially at higher levels, but if things aren’t based on reality to some extent it’s very hard to quickly and enjoyably recognize what you can and can’t do or might need a high check roll to pull off. Obviously magic strains this but then it’s supposed to.
This is basically the same as the hunter ranger's horde breaker. That's generally considered a bad subclass feature, but then again weapon masteries aren't meant to be that powerful. Though now I'm wondering if it would work to somehow combine the two.
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So just noticed for some reason that Cleave is restricted to 5-ft range?
That seems unduly limiting, given it’s already only once per turn and doesn’t carry your modifier damage. Other masteries have their synergies. Cleave symergizing with reach weapons, etc. seems intuitive, no?
“If you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack, you can make a second attack against a creature within 5 feet that is also within your reach. When you hit with the second attack, you can roll your weapon’s damage, but you don’t add your ability modifier unless it’s negative.”
Anyone homebrew Cleave to allow additional reach, etc?
Just to clarify, the second target has to be within 5 feet of the first target. It doesn't have to be within 5 feet of you, it just has to be within your reach. The idea is that you're doing one sweeping swing with the weapon that hits both targets, so they have to be near each other.
The actual text of that sentence is (emphasis mine):
"If you hit a creature with a melee attack roll using this weapon, you can make a melee attack roll with the weapon against a second creature within 5 feet of the first that is also within your reach."
pronouns: he/she/they
Oof that is even more rough. I get the concept of a sweeping swing, but it also makes sense that such a sweep could hit other enemies not adjacent, IMHO. And really for gameplay I think that is way more fun.
It's an ability that gives you a second attack at level one, so there have to be some limits to keep it from being overpowered. I think it's just fine.
Yup. It’s got other limits. Already mentioned in the OP.
Allowing it to work with just a weapon’s reach hardly makes it overpowered. Just more on par with other masteries. And rational.
Good thing that it does work within a weapon's reach, then... ?
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
“within 5 feet of the first”
You really seem to be struggling to let go of your incorrect interpretation here
"Within 5 feet of the first that is also within your reach" just means you can't hit a target 15 feet away with the Cleave attack from your halberd. Unless you're a bugbear, of course
If two creatures are standing next to each other 10 feet away from you, you can hit both with Cleave. They are both within your reach, and the second is within 5 feet of the first
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
No seems my minimalism is being misread, sorry.
In mentioning a weapon’s range, I meant simply that being the only criteria for a Cleave target, ideally. The “within 5 feet of the first” is an additional restriction in rules as written.
It's a free attack; allowing it to be on any creature in your reach with no further stipulation would be extraordinarily OP, particularly compared to the other weapon masteries. The second target needing to be within 5 feet of the first is a perfectly fair and balancing requirement.
Ah, sorry about that
I don't see a problem with that limitation, but it would have been a good opportunity for something like a fighter subclass that gets Super-Masteries (or whatever you want to call it), where the Cleave attack can be against any other creature within range rather than just within 5 feet of the first. Whirling a halberd in a full 360 to get targets both to the north and south of you seems a little much at 1st level to me, though
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I’d be down with that.
Just curious: Has anyone here used Cleave? If so, how’d it feel?
I may be about to -- switching characters mid-campaign to barbarian, and trying to decide whether greataxe (Cleave) or greatsword (Graze) would make more sense to reskin as a chainsaw
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I have yet to see it in action in 5e, but have in other games (Pathfinder) and I believe I recall it working more or less the same in an older edition of D&D (AD&D 2nd I think?)
Ultimately, it's decent, but tends to get more mileage at lower levels. Fighting multiple opponents - especially ones that simply line up in melee range - at once is more common in Tier 1 and gets less common as the game progresses, as action economy tends to lead towards fewer enemies with more attacks; singular bosses become more commonplace - where cleave is useless - and combat tends to become more spread out with enemies being more mobile.
Ultimately though, it is an extra free attack, and when the situation arises - which will never be a wholly infrequent occurrence - to use it, well, it goes pretty hard. A fighter with Polearm Master and a Halberd can make a lot of attacks.
I think this is a big part of why they've allowed changing selected weapon masteries on a long rest.
pronouns: he/she/they
Also, a little realism for a moment - you swing that halberd in a 360 ( or rather you intend to until some idjit or 2 steps not the path).because you were intending to do the 360 you put a lot not it and get lucky hitting idjit #1, further you catch them where their armor isn’t and cut clean through ( you crit) but that cut is going to take a lot out of your swing no matter what. If there is sameness else (idjit #2) close by you have enough left to hit them as well but after that first hit you were no longer going to actually do a full 360 sweep without restarting it which means next attack action. Those lovely 360s aren’t really meant to cut a bunch of foes down they are meant to keep folks back leaving you room to wield that reach weapon.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Pathfinder I actually have experience with in the Kingmaker video game. Cleave and its variations all worked with simply your range, no stipulation on where an enemy was in relation to another. The actual Cleave feat was meh, whereas the 2nd-level Cleaving Finish actually worked similar to the 2024 Cleave mastery. It was something I usually only took on a reach weapon.
Cool background. It’s always tricky to know how realistic to be in a fantasy game like D&D.
Just with weapon masteries, there are already reaches made for cool gameplay reasons (rightly I’d say). Like any weapon that hits you hard enough/the right way could push you back or topple you or slow you or hurt your ability to defend or attack.
These masteries read like quasi-magical properties within this game system, to me at least.
Keep in mind that 5e counts diagonals as 5ft, so for a Greataxe you're threatening 4 additional spaces not 2, and with a halberd you can threaten 5 to 7.
Actually most are, like cleave based on real world use of the weapon:
a) slow ( club, javelin, lxb, sling) - th javelin slows you down by forcing you to talk time to pull it out, same with the LXB. The club and sling do I by stunning you at least briefly.
b) push (great club, pike, war hammer, hvyxb) - the great club and war hammer are massive forces hitting you and knocking you backward, the pike your shoving it into them and shoving them back with it. The hvy xbow is a bit different but also much the same. It’s like the reason the US army went to the colt .45 over the regulation .38 in 1911 - the .38 would kill a phillipine rebel tribes man but not stop them the .45 killed them and blew them back so they couldn’t cut off your head with a Kris. Same idea between the oxbow and heavy the light kills and slows, but doesn’t stop, the heavy picks you up and tosses you backward.
c) Sap (flail, longsword, Morningstar, war pick) - disadvantage on next attack as your recovering from the pain/ stun of the hit - realistically this and slow could have been reversed or all 8 weapons given either but they seem to be split into sets of 4 so ….
d) topple (staff, trident, lance, battleaxe and maul) - battle axe - literally cutting you down to the ground, maul smashing you down, punching KE either knocking you off your horse or sweeping your feet out like he staff and trident.
e) vex and Nick - the light weapon masteries giving either advantage to the next attack or granting the extra attack be in the attack action since the attacks are fast enough because of the weapon sizes toeiher beat the defenses or get in an extra attack.
they are all based ( if somewhat exaggerated) on real world uses and effects of the weapons.
A note on realism vs fantasy - yes it’s a fantasy game and many things are overblown, especially at higher levels, but if things aren’t based on reality to some extent it’s very hard to quickly and enjoyably recognize what you can and can’t do or might need a high check roll to pull off. Obviously magic strains this but then it’s supposed to.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
This is basically the same as the hunter ranger's horde breaker. That's generally considered a bad subclass feature, but then again weapon masteries aren't meant to be that powerful. Though now I'm wondering if it would work to somehow combine the two.