This is basically the same as the hunter ranger's horde breaker. That's generally considered a bad subclass feature, but then again weapon masteries aren't meant to be that powerful. Though now I'm wondering if it would work to somehow combine the two.
There would be nothing stopping you from making Cleave and Horde Breaker attacks in the same turn other than a lack of viable targets
Also, who thinks Horde Breaker is a bad subclass feature? Oh no, a free extra attack every turn. How awful
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Any feature that’s conditional gets a lot of flack, particularly if it’s conditional in a way that makes it ineffective in a classic “1 BBEG vs the party” fight.
Sure, but at least in 5e24, you can swap it for Colossus Slayer on a Short Rest. So if you're heading into that kind of boss fight, you just go with the other option
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I have yet to see it in action in 5e, but have in other games (Pathfinder) and I believe I recall it working more or less the same in an older edition of D&D (AD&D 2nd I think?) Ultimately, it's decent, but tends to get more mileage at lower levels. Fighting multiple opponents - especially ones that simply line up in melee range - at once is more common in Tier 1 and gets less common as the game progresses, as action economy tends to lead towards fewer enemies with more attacks; singular bosses become more commonplace - where cleave is useless - and combat tends to become more spread out with enemies being more mobile.
Ultimately though, it is an extra free attack, and when the situation arises - which will never be a wholly infrequent occurrence - to use it, well, it goes pretty hard. A fighter with Polearm Master and a Halberd can make a lot of attacks.
Pathfinder I actually have experience with in the Kingmaker video game. Cleave and its variations all worked with simply your range, no stipulation on where an enemy was in relation to another. The actual Cleave feat was meh, whereas the 2nd-level Cleaving Finish actually worked similar to the 2024 Cleave mastery. It was something I usually only took on a reach weapon.
Also, a little realism for a moment - you swing that halberd in a 360 ( or rather you intend to until some idjit or 2 steps not the path).because you were intending to do the 360 you put a lot not it and get lucky hitting idjit #1, further you catch them where their armor isn’t and cut clean through ( you crit) but that cut is going to take a lot out of your swing no matter what. If there is sameness else (idjit #2) close by you have enough left to hit them as well but after that first hit you were no longer going to actually do a full 360 sweep without restarting it which means next attack action. Those lovely 360s aren’t really meant to cut a bunch of foes down they are meant to keep folks back leaving you room to wield that reach weapon.
Cool background. It’s always tricky to know how realistic to be in a fantasy game like D&D.
Just with weapon masteries, there are already reaches made for cool gameplay reasons (rightly I’d say). Like any weapon that hits you hard enough/the right way could push you back or topple you or slow you or hurt your ability to defend or attack.
These masteries read like quasi-magical properties within this game system, to me at least.
Actually most are, like cleave based on real world use of the weapon: a) slow ( club, javelin, lxb, sling) - th javelin slows you down by forcing you to talk time to pull it out, same with the LXB. The club and sling do I by stunning you at least briefly. b) push (great club, pike, war hammer, hvyxb) - the great club and war hammer are massive forces hitting you and knocking you backward, the pike your shoving it into them and shoving them back with it. The hvy xbow is a bit different but also much the same. It’s like the reason the US army went to the colt .45 over the regulation .38 in 1911 - the .38 would kill a phillipine rebel tribes man but not stop them the .45 killed them and blew them back so they couldn’t cut off your head with a Kris. Same idea between the oxbow and heavy the light kills and slows, but doesn’t stop, the heavy picks you up and tosses you backward. c) Sap (flail, longsword, Morningstar, war pick) - disadvantage on next attack as your recovering from the pain/ stun of the hit - realistically this and slow could have been reversed or all 8 weapons given either but they seem to be split into sets of 4 so …. d) topple (staff, trident, lance, battleaxe and maul) - battle axe - literally cutting you down to the ground, maul smashing you down, punching KE either knocking you off your horse or sweeping your feet out like he staff and trident. e) vex and Nick - the light weapon masteries giving either advantage to the next attack or granting the extra attack be in the attack action since the attacks are fast enough because of the weapon sizes toeiher beat the defenses or get in an extra attack. they are all based ( if somewhat exaggerated) on real world uses and effects of the weapons.
A note on realism vs fantasy - yes it’s a fantasy game and many things are overblown, especially at higher levels, but if things aren’t based on reality to some extent it’s very hard to quickly and enjoyably recognize what you can and can’t do or might need a high check roll to pull off. Obviously magic strains this but then it’s supposed to.
Yeah, definitely wasn’t saying not to base things on realism. I said it was tricky. I appreciate your specificity on the nuances between the various weapons, but I think it still holds that any number of weapons if hit you in a certain spot or way could have a good variety of effects: any weapon that hits you in the leg could easily slow you. Any weapon that hits you on an arm could hamper your attack, etc.
Which brings up the question of (lack of) injuries in combat in general. Like you can get hit all the way down to 1 HP and still fight at 100% strength.
I‘d say that’s way less realistic than what we’re talking about. Damage to your character functions more like gas in a tank - a number to be monitored rather than a physical impact to your body. But that’s a gameplay choice to prioritize fun and ease of play. D&D is full of this of course.
On that, my DM for one of my groups will be using an injury table for crits and dripping to 0 HP, which should add some more gritty realism to combat. I’m looking forward to it (mostly). 😅
Given that the vast majority of fights are over in 30 seconds or less (of real time in game) a lot of those HP losses could easily be injuries. I know the major fight I had in HS lasted all of maybe 20 seconds and was effectively over after my first shot. Your right that the various slow/sap/etc masteries are pretty much all the same things in many cases but it’s a game and the variations are fun.
Given that the vast majority of fights are over in 30 seconds or less (of real time in game) a lot of those HP losses could easily be injuries. I know the major fight I had in HS lasted all of maybe 20 seconds and was effectively over after my first shot. Your right that the various slow/sap/etc masteries are pretty much all the same things in many cases but it’s a game and the variations are fun.
Yes! Exactly my point. Any realism in D&D is/should be informed by what is most fun gameplay.
Hence no real need for Cleave to be narrowly-tied to adjacent enemies, at least for realism purposes.
Given that the vast majority of fights are over in 30 seconds or less (of real time in game) a lot of those HP losses could easily be injuries. I know the major fight I had in HS lasted all of maybe 20 seconds and was effectively over after my first shot. Your right that the various slow/sap/etc masteries are pretty much all the same things in many cases but it’s a game and the variations are fun.
Yes! Exactly my point. Any realism in D&D is/should be informed by what is most fun gameplay.
Hence no real need for Cleave to be narrowly-tied to adjacent enemies, at least for realism purposes.
How about for the gameplay purposes of not giving the near equivalent of Extra Attack at 1st level?
Given that the vast majority of fights are over in 30 seconds or less (of real time in game) a lot of those HP losses could easily be injuries. I know the major fight I had in HS lasted all of maybe 20 seconds and was effectively over after my first shot. Your right that the various slow/sap/etc masteries are pretty much all the same things in many cases but it’s a game and the variations are fun.
Yes! Exactly my point. Any realism in D&D is/should be informed by what is most fun gameplay.
Hence no real need for Cleave to be narrowly-tied to adjacent enemies, at least for realism purposes.
How about for the gameplay purposes of not giving the near equivalent of Extra Attack at 1st level?
Given that the vast majority of fights are over in 30 seconds or less (of real time in game) a lot of those HP losses could easily be injuries. I know the major fight I had in HS lasted all of maybe 20 seconds and was effectively over after my first shot. Your right that the various slow/sap/etc masteries are pretty much all the same things in many cases but it’s a game and the variations are fun.
Yes! Exactly my point. Any realism in D&D is/should be informed by what is most fun gameplay.
Hence no real need for Cleave to be narrowly-tied to adjacent enemies, at least for realism purposes.
How about for the gameplay purposes of not giving the near equivalent of Extra Attack at 1st level?
You mean like Nick?
Nick alone does nothing for the actual amount of attacks you can make, and it takes getting it on a class that doesn't natively get Masteries, certain subclasses, or another feat to give that effect.
Indeed, Nick does not give you a free attack, it allows you to turn the Bonus Action attack that you can already make into a component of the Attack action instead. A far cry from being a *completely free* attack you wouldn't otherwise have, which is the sake of Cleave. Depending on your build, getting access to more attacks can be incredibly potent, and a mix of Cleave and PaM is a phenomenal way to get access to a much higher attack output than you'd otherwise be able to.
Cleave is hardly a free attack either, though. With extra attacks, you usually want to hit the same target multiple times, which is not possible with cleave.
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There would be nothing stopping you from making Cleave and Horde Breaker attacks in the same turn other than a lack of viable targets
Also, who thinks Horde Breaker is a bad subclass feature? Oh no, a free extra attack every turn. How awful
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Any feature that’s conditional gets a lot of flack, particularly if it’s conditional in a way that makes it ineffective in a classic “1 BBEG vs the party” fight.
Sure, but at least in 5e24, you can swap it for Colossus Slayer on a Short Rest. So if you're heading into that kind of boss fight, you just go with the other option
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Yeah, definitely wasn’t saying not to base things on realism. I said it was tricky. I appreciate your specificity on the nuances between the various weapons, but I think it still holds that any number of weapons if hit you in a certain spot or way could have a good variety of effects: any weapon that hits you in the leg could easily slow you. Any weapon that hits you on an arm could hamper your attack, etc.
Which brings up the question of (lack of) injuries in combat in general. Like you can get hit all the way down to 1 HP and still fight at 100% strength.
I‘d say that’s way less realistic than what we’re talking about. Damage to your character functions more like gas in a tank - a number to be monitored rather than a physical impact to your body. But that’s a gameplay choice to prioritize fun and ease of play. D&D is full of this of course.
On that, my DM for one of my groups will be using an injury table for crits and dripping to 0 HP, which should add some more gritty realism to combat. I’m looking forward to it (mostly). 😅
Given that the vast majority of fights are over in 30 seconds or less (of real time in game) a lot of those HP losses could easily be injuries. I know the major fight I had in HS lasted all of maybe 20 seconds and was effectively over after my first shot. Your right that the various slow/sap/etc masteries are pretty much all the same things in many cases but it’s a game and the variations are fun.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Yes! Exactly my point. Any realism in D&D is/should be informed by what is most fun gameplay.
Hence no real need for Cleave to be narrowly-tied to adjacent enemies, at least for realism purposes.
How about for the gameplay purposes of not giving the near equivalent of Extra Attack at 1st level?
You mean like Nick?
Nick alone does nothing for the actual amount of attacks you can make, and it takes getting it on a class that doesn't natively get Masteries, certain subclasses, or another feat to give that effect.
Indeed, Nick does not give you a free attack, it allows you to turn the Bonus Action attack that you can already make into a component of the Attack action instead. A far cry from being a *completely free* attack you wouldn't otherwise have, which is the sake of Cleave. Depending on your build, getting access to more attacks can be incredibly potent, and a mix of Cleave and PaM is a phenomenal way to get access to a much higher attack output than you'd otherwise be able to.
Cleave is hardly a free attack either, though. With extra attacks, you usually want to hit the same target multiple times, which is not possible with cleave.