1 comment about the Celestial Warlock. Sacred Flame ignores cover while Eldritch Blast doesn’t. When your opponents have cover it’s a better option. When your opponents aren’t played intelligently, you’re right about how useful it is.
1 comment about the Celestial Warlock. Sacred Flame ignores cover while Eldritch Blast doesn’t. When your opponents have cover it’s a better option. When your opponents aren’t played intelligently, you’re right about how useful it is.
There are always variables between the hit to do damage and the save or take damage cantrips. The latter is better against high AC (whether provided from a decent AC+cover or Shield spell or whatever), the former is better when advantage can be achieved, avoids save advantage gained through magic resistance or danger sense, and is able to achieve critical hits. In general, I like to have both available. However, after level 5, except when facing an opponent with an unusually high AC, and an unusually low Dex save, and no magic resistance, Eldritch blast is likely to be the better option. In most cases, significantly so.
Also, pay attention to the "a target you can see" in Sacred Flame, vs. "a creature within range" for Eldritch Blast. Sacred Flame may not have cover restrictions, but you cannot target an obscured or hidden target with Sacred Flame the way you can with Eldritch Blast. Even a lowly Fog Cloud renders Sacred Flame entirely unusable.
And you can always just take Spell Sniper to make Eldritch Blast ignore most cover, so Sacred Flame really doesn't have that much in its favor, other than being save-based.
You give it an orange rating, suggesting that the spell is only circumstantially useful. However, if you get this when it is first available to you as a single-classed caster, your save DC will be, optimally, 15.
Let's say your targeted creature has a Dex save bonus of +9. It will fail its save 25% of the time, so a 4th level Fireball (which you compare the Sphere to) will do an average of about 20 damage to that creature, whereas Vitriolic Sphere will average damage 19.
Let's say your targeted creature has a Dex save bonus of +4. It will fail its save 50% of the time, so a 4th level Fireball will do an average of about 24 damage to that creature, whereas Vitriolic Sphere will average 25 damage.
Finally, let's say this target creature has a -1 to its Dex saves. It will fail its save 75% of the time, so a 4th level Fireball averages about 28 damage against that creature versus Vitriolic Sphere's 31.
So what we see here is that the lower your enemies' dex saves, the better Vitriolic Sphere is then upcasting Fireball. Adding to that the fact that the former does acid damage while the latter does Fire damage, I'd think that Vitriolic Sphere should be rated quite higher than it is. Because if you expect your enemy to have a good Dexterity save, there's probably something better you could be doing than casting any of your Dex-save-forcing blast spells, anyways.
Also, Sorcerers seem to have a lot of synergy with this spell in the form of metamagic. Heightened casting makes the Vitriolic Sphere even more likely to stick than the Heightened Fireball, and in a tricky situation, Careful casting works better with Vitriolic Sphere than with Fireball, since the former's weakness (the secondary damage not going off on a successful save) actually becomes useful there.
In conclusion, I'd think that Vitriolic Sphere is only "situational" as far as Dex-save-forcing blast spells are situational, and in a case where you'll want to cast one of those, will be better than many other options. Especially with Fireball rated green, orange seems pretty harsh here.
Thank you for your response. Naturally, nobody is going to agree with me on every rating, though there are some points below where I can perhaps make my reasoning clearer, whether you agree or not.
You give it an orange rating, suggesting that the spell is only circumstantially useful. However, if you get this when it is first available to you as a single-classed caster, your save DC will be, optimally, 15.
Let's say your targeted creature has a Dex save bonus of +9. It will fail its save 25% of the time, so a 4th level Fireball (which you compare the Sphere to) will do an average of about 20 damage to that creature, whereas Vitriolic Sphere will average damage 19.
Let's say your targeted creature has a Dex save bonus of +4. It will fail its save 50% of the time, so a 4th level Fireball will do an average of about 24 damage to that creature, whereas Vitriolic Sphere will average 25 damage.
Finally, let's say this target creature has a -1 to its Dex saves. It will fail its save 75% of the time, so a 4th level Fireball averages about 28 damage against that creature versus Vitriolic Sphere's 31.
So what we see here is that the lower your enemies' dex saves, the better Vitriolic Sphere is then upcasting Fireball.
So here is where I need to add something. A fireball cast at 3rd level gets a green rating in my Wizard guide, but wizard/sorcerer blast spells scale poorly. A Fireball cast with a 4th level slot is most definitely not a good use of a 4th level spell. If we really want to calculate how badly a fireball scales, imagine the Cleric Spell Spirit Guardians. A Spirit Guardians cast with a 4th level slot increases damage 1d8 per round for 10 rounds, or 80 points of potential damage. A fireball cast with a 4th level slot has a potential increase of 6.
When I compared a 4th level Fireball to Vitrolic Sphere in the description, I was not recommending casting a 4th level Fireball instead, I was pointing out that a 4th level blast spell that does comparable damage (even if it may be a couple points higher) to a 3rd level blast spell cast with a 4th level slot is not giving you value for your spell preparation.
Adding to that the fact that the former does acid damage while the latter does Fire damage, I'd think that Vitriolic Sphere should be rated quite higher than it is. Because if you expect your enemy to have a good Dexterity save, there's probably something better you could be doing than casting any of your Dex-save-forcing blast spells, anyways.
We haven't even discussed the other primary disadvantage of a Vitrolic Sphere - the damage is separated into 2 different turns (the turn you cast it and the end of the enemy turn). This is also a significant drawback of the spell.
Also, Sorcerers seem to have a lot of synergy with this spell in the form of metamagic. Heightened casting makes the Vitriolic Sphere even more likely to stick than the Heightened Fireball, and in a tricky situation, Careful casting works better with Vitriolic Sphere than with Fireball, since the former's weakness (the secondary damage not going off on a successful save) actually becomes useful there.
The thing about a Sorcerer willing to spend Sorcery points to enhance 4th level slots is that now we have to compare Vitrolic Sphere to a Heightened Polymorph, that turns the enemy into a snail. (Or even more dramatic, the Twinned Polymorph) It does not compare well.
In conclusion, I'd think that Vitriolic Sphere is only "situational" as far as Dex-save-forcing blast spells are situational, and in a case where you'll want to cast one of those, will be better than many other options. Especially with Fireball rated green, orange seems pretty harsh here.
Fireball is rated green, but it's a 3rd level spell that does 28 average damage, that's good damage for the level. The next blast spell I rate green is Meteor Swarm, that does 70, which is good damage for the level. That's about 7 average damage per level. Find me a 4th level spell that does 35 points damage without splitting damage between turns, or a 5th level spell that does 42, or a 6th level that does 49, or a 7th level that does 56 or an 8th level that does 63 and I will rate that spell green. If it does less, it will be rated lower, or I'm not being consistent.
Hope that clears up my reasoning at least. Not saying you can't get decent mileage from Vitrolic Sphere mind you, there are lots of spells I rate low that will work for you just fine, rating them low means I figure there are superior options, but with spellcasting there is often a field of riches.
Thank you for your response. Naturally, nobody is going to agree with me on every rating, though there are some points below where I can perhaps make my reasoning clearer, whether you agree or not.
So here is where I need to add something. A fireball cast at 3rd level gets a green rating in my Wizard guide, but wizard/sorcerer blast spells scale poorly. A Fireball cast with a 4th level slot is most definitely not a good use of a 4th level spell. If we really want to calculate how badly a fireball scales, imagine the Cleric Spell Spirit Guardians. A Spirit Guardians cast with a 4th level slot increases damage 1d8 per round for 10 rounds, or 80 points of potential damage. A fireball cast with a 4th level slot has a potential increase of 6.
When I compared a 4th level Fireball to Vitrolic Sphere in the description, I was not recommending casting a 4th level Fireball instead, I was pointing out that a 4th level blast spell that does comparable damage (even if it may be a couple points higher) to a 3rd level blast spell cast with a 4th level slot is not giving you value for your spell preparation.
Fireball is rated green, but it's a 3rd level spell that does 28 average damage, that's good damage for the level. The next blast spell I rate green is Meteor Swarm, that does 70, which is good damage for the level. That's about 7 average damage per level. Find me a 4th level spell that does 35 points damage without splitting damage between turns, or a 5th level spell that does 42, or a 6th level that does 49, or a 7th level that does 56 or an 8th level that does 63 and I will rate that spell green. If it does less, it will be rated lower, or I'm not being consistent.
I see. I believe my post was simply based on a misunderstanding of your rating system, so I appreciate this explanation.
On another note, I noticed that you've added the XGTE wizard spells to your Wizard guide, so thanks for that, too!
Hi Everyone,
If interested, my guides are all available in one location now, including my wizard guide, xanathar's guide, and character building guide:
Treantmonk's Temple
1 comment about the Celestial Warlock. Sacred Flame ignores cover while Eldritch Blast doesn’t. When your opponents have cover it’s a better option. When your opponents aren’t played intelligently, you’re right about how useful it is.
Professional computer geek
There are always variables between the hit to do damage and the save or take damage cantrips. The latter is better against high AC (whether provided from a decent AC+cover or Shield spell or whatever), the former is better when advantage can be achieved, avoids save advantage gained through magic resistance or danger sense, and is able to achieve critical hits. In general, I like to have both available. However, after level 5, except when facing an opponent with an unusually high AC, and an unusually low Dex save, and no magic resistance, Eldritch blast is likely to be the better option. In most cases, significantly so.
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
D&D Beyond FoundersThank you - your Wizard guide was a pleasure to read through and had me laughing several times, as well as being really useful. :)
Pun-loving nerd | Faith Elisabeth Lilley | She/Her/Hers | Profile art by Becca Golins
If you need help with homebrew, please post on the homebrew forums, where multiple staff and moderators can read your post and help you!
"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
Also, pay attention to the "a target you can see" in Sacred Flame, vs. "a creature within range" for Eldritch Blast. Sacred Flame may not have cover restrictions, but you cannot target an obscured or hidden target with Sacred Flame the way you can with Eldritch Blast. Even a lowly Fog Cloud renders Sacred Flame entirely unusable.
And you can always just take Spell Sniper to make Eldritch Blast ignore most cover, so Sacred Flame really doesn't have that much in its favor, other than being save-based.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Thank you for this. These guides have been quite helpful for me, even as someone who has yet to play a wizard!
I'm not sure I agree with all of your spell ratings, though.
The first one that comes to mind is Vitriolic Sphere.
You give it an orange rating, suggesting that the spell is only circumstantially useful. However, if you get this when it is first available to you as a single-classed caster, your save DC will be, optimally, 15.
Let's say your targeted creature has a Dex save bonus of +9. It will fail its save 25% of the time, so a 4th level Fireball (which you compare the Sphere to) will do an average of about 20 damage to that creature, whereas Vitriolic Sphere will average damage 19.
Let's say your targeted creature has a Dex save bonus of +4. It will fail its save 50% of the time, so a 4th level Fireball will do an average of about 24 damage to that creature, whereas Vitriolic Sphere will average 25 damage.
Finally, let's say this target creature has a -1 to its Dex saves. It will fail its save 75% of the time, so a 4th level Fireball averages about 28 damage against that creature versus Vitriolic Sphere's 31.
So what we see here is that the lower your enemies' dex saves, the better Vitriolic Sphere is then upcasting Fireball. Adding to that the fact that the former does acid damage while the latter does Fire damage, I'd think that Vitriolic Sphere should be rated quite higher than it is. Because if you expect your enemy to have a good Dexterity save, there's probably something better you could be doing than casting any of your Dex-save-forcing blast spells, anyways.
Also, Sorcerers seem to have a lot of synergy with this spell in the form of metamagic. Heightened casting makes the Vitriolic Sphere even more likely to stick than the Heightened Fireball, and in a tricky situation, Careful casting works better with Vitriolic Sphere than with Fireball, since the former's weakness (the secondary damage not going off on a successful save) actually becomes useful there.
In conclusion, I'd think that Vitriolic Sphere is only "situational" as far as Dex-save-forcing blast spells are situational, and in a case where you'll want to cast one of those, will be better than many other options. Especially with Fireball rated green, orange seems pretty harsh here.
And that's all I have to say about that.
Plus, according to the designers, they deliberately made fireball more damaging than other 3rd level spells because it’s so iconic.
Professional computer geek
I see. I believe my post was simply based on a misunderstanding of your rating system, so I appreciate this explanation.
On another note, I noticed that you've added the XGTE wizard spells to your Wizard guide, so thanks for that, too!
And that's all I have to say about that.
Treantmonk should not be modest. He also has a YouTube channel. It can be found here:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr7N1om5-7UemjK_stlAuTw
His guides are excellent.