I want to do something dumb, I want to make an Half-Orc Rogue Inquisitive with an 8 in Dexterity. The idea is that they are private investigator, hard-boiled/noir style. They have an old leg wound that never healed right, thus the low dex.
The Meta-game Reasons are this: I'd like to have a +2 to insight AND investigation while having a +3 to my attack stat. If I'm making sure CON is bearable, that's MAD as all hell.
I could just go human and get everything I want, or be a Woodelf, but that just seems boring. Imagine a Half-Orc private eye with his Cane-sword (Rapier) in one and and the sheath (Club) in the other! Much more interesting!
There is nothing wrong with them, but they are considered inherently suboptimal. It doesn't play into the strengths of the class. That said, having high strength and training in Athletics you'll be amazing at 2nd Story work.
It's no more or less MAD then any other Rogue, as you could take. Str: 14, Dex: 8, Con: 13, Int: 14, Wis: 14, Cha: 8. This leaves 1 point to make either Dex or Cha 9. Half Orc will give +2 Str and +1 Con, so you'll be Str: 16 and Con: 14.
This means you can training in: Insight, Investigation, and Perception and be +4 (+2 ability +2 proficiency) to those skills.
You're main problem is your AC is absolute garbage. As a Rogue your AC is 11+Dex or 12+Dex, and with -1 Dex, you're looking at AC:10 or AC:11. In addition if you make it to 7th lvl then Evasion will not be very useful as it will be +2 (-1 ability +3 proficiency). Most Rogues are looking at +6-7! Unless you want a 1st lvl in Fighter multiclassing won't let you get Heavy Armor to improve your AC, unless you multiclass Cleric with a Domain that get Heavy Armor.
1st level Fighter will give you +2 hp, 2nd wind, fighting style, and heavy armor, at the expense of setting you back a level and -1 skill (multiclassing into rogue gives you +1 skill). You could also wield a shield and have a sword-cane and shield.
You can't Multiclass due to the low Dex.
I have plans for a "low dex" rogue. My plan was to take 1st lvl in Rogue, 2nd and/or 3rd in Hexblade, and the rest in Rogue. By "low dex" I mean that he'll have medium armor and possibly a shield. So it's still need Dex 14, but the idea is to make Charisma my primary stat and go Swashbuckler. Taking a Charisma based race like: Aasimar, Dragonborn, Half-Elf, Lightfood Halfling, vHuman, Tabaxi, Tiefling, Triton or Yuan-ti.
Thanks for the Input Bunny, I don't mind being suboptimal as long as the class is fun. It really is the AC I'm most afraid of, I usually play Classes like Fighter or Paladin.
I was very tempted to go 1st level fighter, then 3 levels of rogue (inquisitive), then 2 more levels of fighter (samurai). I've decided that goes against the spirit of the character though. Since Dragon Heist is only lvl 1-5, multi classes wouldn't really have time to come online anyway.
I think I'm going to work a "partner" into the characters back story. The Partner will be a more optimal race, and should my Orc be killed, the partner will "take over the case".
One way to mitigate the low AC is to take the Moderately Armored feat at 4th level. That'll give you access to medium armor and shields, and you still get a +1 to your Strength or Dexterity.
Oooh, and the +1 Dex would mitigate the penalty to my AC since his current Dex is 9. Always good advice from Coder. I'm not really building him to be stealthy anyway, so I could get armor with a higher AC and stealth disadvantage.
Another option is to make him a warforged instead of an orc (orc-shaped warforged? :p ), because their +proficiency to AC will keep it up despite low Dex. But yeah, Moderately Armored sounds like a solid plan as well.
I'd say consider being a Mountain Dwarf. It can still fit the whole hard-boiled detective feel, and it gives you proficiency in Medium Armor out of the gate. If you go with Str 14 (16 with race), Dex 10, Con 12 (14 with race), Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 8, then you end up with your +3 ability bonus on attack rolls, +2 ability bonus on both Insight and Investigation, decent hit points, and a respectable 15 AC when wearing Half Plate! Or you can go with 14 AC breastplate to avoid the Stealth penalty. Dwarves even have lower speed than humans, so you can call that your "leg wound."
This way, you also avoid multiclassing and can even up your Strength score at 4th level or take a different feat that better fits the character concept.
I'd say consider being a Mountain Dwarf. It can still fit the whole hard-boiled detective feel, and it gives you proficiency in Medium Armor out of the gate. If you go with Str 14 (16 with race), Dex 10, Con 12 (14 with race), Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 8, then you end up with your +3 ability bonus on attack rolls, +2 ability bonus on both Insight and Investigation, decent hit points, and a respectable 15 AC when wearing Half Plate! Or you can go with 14 AC breastplate to avoid the Stealth penalty. Dwarves even have lower speed than humans, so you can call that your "leg wound."
This way, you also avoid multiclassing and can even up your Strength score at 4th level or take a different feat that better fits the character concept.
This is pretty good advice. If you can swap in the dwarf as opposed to the half-orc you'll be in a lot better place. Remember though, you will still need a finesse weapon for sneak attack.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I'll agree that the Mountain dwarf is objectively better as a choice, but I love half-Orcs so much that I'm willing to be handicapped. I'll just have to be smart and avoid being hit. I've convinced my buddy to take the protection fighting style for his fighter, that should help.
In order to multiclass, you need a dexterity score of at least 13, so that's impossible within the requirements of your DEX 8 rogue.
Honestly, the only thing I can see working at all with a rogue with less than 13 dexterity is carrying a bunch of melee weapons with the "thrown" and "finesse" property (or darts), using your third level feature to gain sneak attack damage against the target, and making sure your party tank always stays between you and the baddies. Max AC of 11-12 and d8 hit dice don't go well together.
For an investigator type character, my question would be what does rogue offer that you can't get elsewhere? A rogue with low dex might be able to work in combat, but I'd question how well it would actually perform the rest of the time. AC would be pretty bad, and multi-classing isn't an option as pointed out. Damage would be OK with high str, because you can still get your backstabs in. All of the things that rogues usually are expected to do though, key off dex. Initiative keys off dex, so you're tossing the ability to act first. So, I am left with, without dex, why rogue?
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
For an investigator type character, my question would be what does rogue offer that you can't get elsewhere? A rogue with low dex might be able to work in combat, but I'd question how well it would actually perform the rest of the time. AC would be pretty bad, and multi-classing isn't an option as pointed out. Damage would be OK with high str, because you can still get your backstabs in. All of the things that rogues usually are expected to do though, key off dex. Initiative keys off dex, so you're tossing the ability to act first. So, I am left with, without dex, why rogue?
This is a good point. Wizard would fit an intelligent investigator, with War Wizard even giving you initiative and AC boosts for free (using your reaction)! Knowledge Cleric would give you medium armor and shields, while also giving many ways to increase your investigative abilities. In fact, unless you want your character to be non-religious, I would argue that Knowledge Cleric is the best (read: most optimal) choice for you, assuming 8-10 dexterity.
Maybe you don't want magic to be a main focus, though? In that case, for Dragon Heist (which is only levels 1-5, unless you plan on completing the Dungeon of The Mad Mage after this), rogue may be the best, even if it is going to be a weak build almost no matter what without an at least decent dexterity.
The skills, expertise, and subclass abilities that don't revolve around combat. Remember that combat is only one of the three pillars. My character would be invaluable at investigative work and insight into characters motives. Also, being so obviously weak would make combat more fun, I'd have to be much more tactical.
I hear that you love half orcs, but with an 11 AC you might find yourself having to play a little too tactical during combat. Otoh my feeling with Dragon Heist is that if you play your cards right you can avoid a lot of combat.
I guess I should clarify that I wasn't really asking for build advice, I know how to build a rogue :p, what I'm asking is:
"Do you think this build is playable? Do you think it would over-burden my party mates to not have a sneaky (but still skilled) rogue?"
This is actually a more difficult question than the original, I think. Waterdeep: Dragon Heist seems like it will put a greater emphasis on the roleplaying/social skills/investigation aspects of the game than on combat. For any other offical WoTC adventure, I'd say yes, you would be a burden to your party most of the time. But for Dragon Heist? I can't say. Certainly, if I were your party mate (probably playing some support build), I'd roll my eyes a bit at first thinking "great, that's half of my bard's healing spells going to the rogue." >:/ But if you play it in the way it seems like you plan too, being careful about getting into too many fights and being careful once in them, I think I'd like having a character on my side in a city-based adventure who can reliably sniff out clues, tell when people are lying, find traps, etc. enough to make up for having to plan around that character's combat weaknesses.
Overall, I think the answer is "you'll find out next session." If you worry you'll be an OOC annoyance, talk with your party mates beforehand about their thoughts, and see what they'll be playing. Your less dexy rogue looks sexy when you compare his skills to a Barbarian, a Fighter, and a Monk, but he starts to look like a 5th wheel if you've got a social skillmaster Bard, an erudite Wizard, and an expert tracker Ranger as your party mates (Torm forbid anyone else bring a rogue!). These are my personal opinions, which your party mates may not share, of course.
I played with someone who made a Great Gatsby-themed Rogue, with really good charisma. This was in Pathfinder, and they literally did not have Sleight of Hand as a skill.
In 5e you can actually pull this off really well with high Charisma because Expertise is amazing.
If I were to do this given what you have so far, I'd go for 14 strength, 16 constitution, 14 charisma, 13 wisdom, 10 int, and 8 dex.
For proficiency, I'd go for Intimidate (from half orc), insight, investigation, Perception, and then either Persuasion or Sleight of Hand.
From there you could whatever Expertise you want, probably insight and intimidation (thematically, for what you are trying to do). Combined with 14 charisma, this would give you some really solid modifiers.
For weaponry, I would personally go for a whip or rapier. Rapier for the +4 to hit, a whip for the reach.
I like Tortles (as an aside, did anyone see Matt Mercer's bard? Brilliant.) But if I was going to be something else, I'd just be a high dex rogue.
I guess I should clarify that I wasn't really asking for build advice, I know how to build a rogue :p, what I'm asking is:
"Do you think this build is playable? Do you think it would over-burden my party mates to not have a sneaky (but still skilled) rogue?"
I have enjoyed all the good-natured advice though! Thanks y'all!
Sneaking (Hiding) and use of Thieves' Tools is available to any and all classes, by way of background. There is no reason that the rogue must be the Dex-based break-and-enter guy of the group, as that can just as easily be any other high-dex build (caster, barbarian, monk, bard, etc.). And as has been pointed out, you aren't really gimping your own combat abilities that much by being non-dex, because you can cover AC with other things like medium armor feats. You do you, don't worry about it.
I once played a minotaur rogue. He was a pickpocket. He grabbed you, lifted you up, and shook you until your stuff fell out.
A class is not defined by their stats, they're defined by how you choose to play them. A brutish half-orc thug mugger is absolutely a low-dex rogue. Honestly, most actual "rogues" are low-dex, in real life. The cat-burglar/second-story robber is only one tiny subset of the rogue class.
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Ancient GM, started in '76, have played almost everything at some point or another.
I run/play Mercer-style games, heavy on the RP and interaction, light on the combat-monster and rule-lawyering. The goal is to tell an epic story with the players and the players are as involved in the world building as the GM is. I run and play a very Brechtian style, am huge into RP theory and love discussing improv and offers.
I want to do something dumb, I want to make an Half-Orc Rogue Inquisitive with an 8 in Dexterity. The idea is that they are private investigator, hard-boiled/noir style. They have an old leg wound that never healed right, thus the low dex.
The Meta-game Reasons are this: I'd like to have a +2 to insight AND investigation while having a +3 to my attack stat. If I'm making sure CON is bearable, that's MAD as all hell.
I could just go human and get everything I want, or be a Woodelf, but that just seems boring. Imagine a Half-Orc private eye with his Cane-sword (Rapier) in one and and the sheath (Club) in the other! Much more interesting!
This is for Dragon Heist, am I being dumb?
https://ddb.ac/characters/5274832/ie6IzJ
In the Rogue forum there is a whole section about high Strength Based Rogues.
There is nothing wrong with them, but they are considered inherently suboptimal. It doesn't play into the strengths of the class.
That said, having high strength and training in Athletics you'll be amazing at 2nd Story work.
It's no more or less MAD then any other Rogue, as you could take. Str: 14, Dex: 8, Con: 13, Int: 14, Wis: 14, Cha: 8. This leaves 1 point to make either Dex or Cha 9. Half Orc will give +2 Str and +1 Con, so you'll be Str: 16 and Con: 14.
This means you can training in: Insight, Investigation, and Perception and be +4 (+2 ability +2 proficiency) to those skills.
You're main problem is your AC is absolute garbage. As a Rogue your AC is 11+Dex or 12+Dex, and with -1 Dex, you're looking at AC:10 or AC:11.
In addition if you make it to 7th lvl then Evasion will not be very useful as it will be +2 (-1 ability +3 proficiency). Most Rogues are looking at +6-7!
Unless you want a 1st lvl in Fighter multiclassing won't let you get Heavy Armor to improve your AC, unless you multiclass Cleric with a Domain that get Heavy Armor.1st level Fighter will give you +2 hp, 2nd wind, fighting style, and heavy armor, at the expense of setting you back a level and -1 skill (multiclassing into rogue gives you +1 skill). You could also wield a shield and have a sword-cane and shield.
You can't Multiclass due to the low Dex.I have plans for a "low dex" rogue. My plan was to take 1st lvl in Rogue, 2nd and/or 3rd in Hexblade, and the rest in Rogue.
By "low dex" I mean that he'll have medium armor and possibly a shield. So it's still need Dex 14, but the idea is to make Charisma my primary stat and go Swashbuckler. Taking a Charisma based race like: Aasimar, Dragonborn, Half-Elf, Lightfood Halfling, vHuman, Tabaxi, Tiefling, Triton or Yuan-ti.
Thanks for the Input Bunny, I don't mind being suboptimal as long as the class is fun. It really is the AC I'm most afraid of, I usually play Classes like Fighter or Paladin.
I was very tempted to go 1st level fighter, then 3 levels of rogue (inquisitive), then 2 more levels of fighter (samurai). I've decided that goes against the spirit of the character though. Since Dragon Heist is only lvl 1-5, multi classes wouldn't really have time to come online anyway.
I think I'm going to work a "partner" into the characters back story. The Partner will be a more optimal race, and should my Orc be killed, the partner will "take over the case".
https://ddb.ac/characters/5275132/tmySps
One way to mitigate the low AC is to take the Moderately Armored feat at 4th level. That'll give you access to medium armor and shields, and you still get a +1 to your Strength or Dexterity.
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Oooh, and the +1 Dex would mitigate the penalty to my AC since his current Dex is 9. Always good advice from Coder. I'm not really building him to be stealthy anyway, so I could get armor with a higher AC and stealth disadvantage.
Thanks man.
Another option is to make him a warforged instead of an orc (orc-shaped warforged? :p ), because their +proficiency to AC will keep it up despite low Dex. But yeah, Moderately Armored sounds like a solid plan as well.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I'd say consider being a Mountain Dwarf. It can still fit the whole hard-boiled detective feel, and it gives you proficiency in Medium Armor out of the gate. If you go with Str 14 (16 with race), Dex 10, Con 12 (14 with race), Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 8, then you end up with your +3 ability bonus on attack rolls, +2 ability bonus on both Insight and Investigation, decent hit points, and a respectable 15 AC when wearing Half Plate! Or you can go with 14 AC breastplate to avoid the Stealth penalty. Dwarves even have lower speed than humans, so you can call that your "leg wound."
This way, you also avoid multiclassing and can even up your Strength score at 4th level or take a different feat that better fits the character concept.
This is pretty good advice. If you can swap in the dwarf as opposed to the half-orc you'll be in a lot better place. Remember though, you will still need a finesse weapon for sneak attack.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I'll agree that the Mountain dwarf is objectively better as a choice, but I love half-Orcs so much that I'm willing to be handicapped. I'll just have to be smart and avoid being hit. I've convinced my buddy to take the protection fighting style for his fighter, that should help.
In order to multiclass, you need a dexterity score of at least 13, so that's impossible within the requirements of your DEX 8 rogue.
Honestly, the only thing I can see working at all with a rogue with less than 13 dexterity is carrying a bunch of melee weapons with the "thrown" and "finesse" property (or darts), using your third level feature to gain sneak attack damage against the target, and making sure your party tank always stays between you and the baddies. Max AC of 11-12 and d8 hit dice don't go well together.
And that's all I have to say about that.
For an investigator type character, my question would be what does rogue offer that you can't get elsewhere? A rogue with low dex might be able to work in combat, but I'd question how well it would actually perform the rest of the time. AC would be pretty bad, and multi-classing isn't an option as pointed out. Damage would be OK with high str, because you can still get your backstabs in. All of the things that rogues usually are expected to do though, key off dex. Initiative keys off dex, so you're tossing the ability to act first. So, I am left with, without dex, why rogue?
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
This is a good point. Wizard would fit an intelligent investigator, with War Wizard even giving you initiative and AC boosts for free (using your reaction)! Knowledge Cleric would give you medium armor and shields, while also giving many ways to increase your investigative abilities. In fact, unless you want your character to be non-religious, I would argue that Knowledge Cleric is the best (read: most optimal) choice for you, assuming 8-10 dexterity.
Maybe you don't want magic to be a main focus, though? In that case, for Dragon Heist (which is only levels 1-5, unless you plan on completing the Dungeon of The Mad Mage after this), rogue may be the best, even if it is going to be a weak build almost no matter what without an at least decent dexterity.
And that's all I have to say about that.
The skills, expertise, and subclass abilities that don't revolve around combat. Remember that combat is only one of the three pillars. My character would be invaluable at investigative work and insight into characters motives. Also, being so obviously weak would make combat more fun, I'd have to be much more tactical.
I hear that you love half orcs, but with an 11 AC you might find yourself having to play a little too tactical during combat. Otoh my feeling with Dragon Heist is that if you play your cards right you can avoid a lot of combat.
Have you considered a tortle?
I like Tortles (as an aside, did anyone see Matt Mercer's bard? Brilliant.) But if I was going to be something else, I'd just be a high dex rogue.
I guess I should clarify that I wasn't really asking for build advice, I know how to build a rogue :p, what I'm asking is:
"Do you think this build is playable? Do you think it would over-burden my party mates to not have a sneaky (but still skilled) rogue?"
I have enjoyed all the good-natured advice though! Thanks y'all!
This is actually a more difficult question than the original, I think. Waterdeep: Dragon Heist seems like it will put a greater emphasis on the roleplaying/social skills/investigation aspects of the game than on combat. For any other offical WoTC adventure, I'd say yes, you would be a burden to your party most of the time. But for Dragon Heist? I can't say. Certainly, if I were your party mate (probably playing some support build), I'd roll my eyes a bit at first thinking "great, that's half of my bard's healing spells going to the rogue." >:/ But if you play it in the way it seems like you plan too, being careful about getting into too many fights and being careful once in them, I think I'd like having a character on my side in a city-based adventure who can reliably sniff out clues, tell when people are lying, find traps, etc. enough to make up for having to plan around that character's combat weaknesses.
Overall, I think the answer is "you'll find out next session." If you worry you'll be an OOC annoyance, talk with your party mates beforehand about their thoughts, and see what they'll be playing. Your less dexy rogue looks sexy when you compare his skills to a Barbarian, a Fighter, and a Monk, but he starts to look like a 5th wheel if you've got a social skillmaster Bard, an erudite Wizard, and an expert tracker Ranger as your party mates (Torm forbid anyone else bring a rogue!). These are my personal opinions, which your party mates may not share, of course.
And that's all I have to say about that.
I played with someone who made a Great Gatsby-themed Rogue, with really good charisma. This was in Pathfinder, and they literally did not have Sleight of Hand as a skill.
In 5e you can actually pull this off really well with high Charisma because Expertise is amazing.
If I were to do this given what you have so far, I'd go for 14 strength, 16 constitution, 14 charisma, 13 wisdom, 10 int, and 8 dex.
For proficiency, I'd go for Intimidate (from half orc), insight, investigation, Perception, and then either Persuasion or Sleight of Hand.
From there you could whatever Expertise you want, probably insight and intimidation (thematically, for what you are trying to do). Combined with 14 charisma, this would give you some really solid modifiers.
For weaponry, I would personally go for a whip or rapier. Rapier for the +4 to hit, a whip for the reach.
Sneaking (Hiding) and use of Thieves' Tools is available to any and all classes, by way of background. There is no reason that the rogue must be the Dex-based break-and-enter guy of the group, as that can just as easily be any other high-dex build (caster, barbarian, monk, bard, etc.). And as has been pointed out, you aren't really gimping your own combat abilities that much by being non-dex, because you can cover AC with other things like medium armor feats. You do you, don't worry about it.
dndbeyond.com forum tags
I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
I once played a minotaur rogue. He was a pickpocket. He grabbed you, lifted you up, and shook you until your stuff fell out.
A class is not defined by their stats, they're defined by how you choose to play them. A brutish half-orc thug mugger is absolutely a low-dex rogue. Honestly, most actual "rogues" are low-dex, in real life. The cat-burglar/second-story robber is only one tiny subset of the rogue class.
Ancient GM, started in '76, have played almost everything at some point or another.
I run/play Mercer-style games, heavy on the RP and interaction, light on the combat-monster and rule-lawyering. The goal is to tell an epic story with the players and the players are as involved in the world building as the GM is. I run and play a very Brechtian style, am huge into RP theory and love discussing improv and offers.
That is pure brilliance.