For a pure grappler, the rogue scout dip is insanely powerful. It allows extra movement on your turn and as a reaction. Thus creates additional opportunities to reposition enemies into AOE threats. Mobile is also a very good feat. Grappler need every inch they can get.
Whether or not jumping causes grappled creatures to fall is such a fundamental question for grappling, that it's almost like a rewritten guide would need two versions for Luchador vs. Ground Pound mode. Supplexing luchadors take every ounce of mobility they can find, while a ground pounder would probably focus more on getting beefy with HP and AC. Once upon a time, finding a way to pick up Expertise for Athletics was the main challenge of making a viable grappler, but now that it's a given, the sky has really opened up for doing something interesting once you grab someone.
Monk, Barbarian, and Bloodhunter all have a very strong place as the core of a grappler build. Glory or Conquest Paladin, Champion or Battlemaster Fighter, Scout or Thief Rogue, Moon or Spore Druid, or Gloomstalker Ranger might sometimes make an appearance as well, depending on what it is you're trying to do once you have them grabbed.
Not sure if anyone has pointed this out yet, but creatures grant cover to one another depending on their size and spacing. A medium creature grappling another medium creature should enjoy the benefits of half cover. Half cover is a +2 to AC and dexterity saving throws. In some situations that’s better than wielding a shield.
Rune Knight fighter Martial Archetype should be added in as sky blue. • Giant's Might gives advantage on Strength checks. • Giant's Might also grows your character to large size and eventually to huge. • All the runes from Rune Carver are great for grappler. With that said, I wouldn't recommend Fire since your unarmed attacks wouldn't triggered Fire rune.
Skill Expert Feat from TCE is should be also added as sky blue. • Without dipping into Rogue or Bard, it allows any race to gain expertise on Athletics skills.
Fighting Style: Unarmed Fighting should be added as Blue. • Increase your unarmed damaged to that of a longsword (1d8) and deals 1d4 bludgeon damage as long as you maintain grapple.
Unarmes strikes are considered melee weapon attacks for purposes of activating abilities like the Fire Rune or most of the Battlemaster maneuvers.
Not sure if anyone has pointed this out yet, but creatures grant cover to one another depending on their size and spacing. A medium creature grappling another medium creature should enjoy the benefits of half cover. Half cover is a +2 to AC and dexterity saving throws. In some situations that’s better than wielding a shield.
I love this idea, we need a name for it. Maybe, instead of "sword and board", it's "sword and bard"?
For example, an unarmed strike counts as a melee weapon attack, even though the attacker’s body isn’t considered a weapon.
That's half right. An unarmed strike is a "melee weapon attack", but it is not an "attack with a melee weapon" (or a weapon at all). The distinction is very important. In the case of fire rune, the condition is "when you hit a creature with an attack using a weapon," therefore the unarmed strike doesn't qualify.
For example, an unarmed strike counts as a melee weapon attack, even though the attacker’s body isn’t considered a weapon.
That's half right. An unarmed strike is a "melee weapon attack", but it is not an "attack with a melee weapon" (or a weapon at all). The distinction is very important. In the case of fire rune, the condition is "when you hit a creature with an attack using a weapon," therefore the unarmed strike doesn't qualify.
Usually unarmed strikes are not weapons.
Natural Weapons are most often described as being used to make Unarmed Strikes, as in the racial features of races like Tabaxi, Minotaur, etc. According to the SAC (but also, according to plain and natural language), Natural Weapons are weapons. So if your Unarmed Strike is an Unarmed Strike made with a Natural Weapon, then it will count as an attack with a weapon, but if it is a regular Unarmed Strike, it may not.
I guess, that's cloud and stone for level 3. the +2 for 10 mins aren't worth not having the other 2 runes IMO. Those effects are crazy good and stone gives you 120 darkvision.
Don't forget the hand crossbow in your example. I would grapple, shove for prone, drag back to party for A Bad Time™, then when the enemy's buddy tries to come and help, pull my hand crossbow (maintaining my grapple with the other hand) and shoot the mofo and lock'em up with fire chains of ouchiness(which incidentally leave the buddy restrained too). Then proceed to give the buddy A Bad Time™ as well.
Anyone have any insight into the interplay of Path of the Beast and Rune Knight? I'm picturing the grapple and shove then tail attack and reaction AC boost synergy. If you're doing multiple grapples(as opposed to single) that makes 3 enemies you can lock down and attack. Grapple/shove 1 and 2 then tail attack 3 and give 'em the chains. Then theoretically you can hit any one of them with the tail for damage and you still have the AC boost as a reaction.
Or if you're low on health going into it just do bite instead of tail then Bite for heals.
And if you take the Unarmed Fighting fighting style you don't need the claws at all.
You guys are clearly more experienced than me with this stuff as I've never played a grappler. I'm going to try to keep it relatively simple and stick to single target grapple. How would you guys build as the above level by level? It's for an underwater campaign and I don't really want to min/max, I just want to have fun/casual play. I was thinking sea elf. I'd go Goliath but I'm leery of using a magic item for the water breathing as an antimagic field means I'm drowning. And I don't necessarily want to put 6 levels into Barb for the swimming and water breathing but maybe I have to to keep goliath because of how suboptimal sea elf is. What do you think?
Anyone have any insight into the interplay of Path of the Beast and Rune Knight? I'm picturing the grapple and shove then tail attack and reaction AC boost synergy. If you're doing multiple grapples(as opposed to single) that makes 3 enemies you can lock down and attack. Grapple/shove 1 and 2 then tail attack 3 and give 'em the chains. Then theoretically you can hit any one of them with the tail for damage and you still have the AC boost as a reaction.
Or if you're low on health going into it just do bite instead of tail then Bite for heals.
And if you take the Unarmed Fighting fighting style you don't need the claws at all.
You guys are clearly more experienced than me with this stuff as I've never played a grappler. I'm going to try to keep it relatively simple and stick to single target grapple. How would you guys build as the above level by level? It's for an underwater campaign and I don't really want to min/max, I just want to have fun/casual play. I was thinking sea elf. I'd go Goliath but I'm leery of using a magic item for the water breathing as an antimagic field means I'm drowning. And I don't necessarily want to put 6 levels into Barb for the swimming and water breathing but maybe I have to to keep goliath because of how suboptimal sea elf is. What do you think?
If you have access to the Ravnica races, Simic Hybrids are excellent: at level 1 you can breathe underwater and have a swim speed, and at level 5 you can grow an extra pair of grappling tentacles. As a bonus, Simic Hybrids are made from human, elf, and vedalken parents, so you can still have sea elf parents if you want.
Path of the Beast is a risky click, because all three Beast weapons will have GM-dependent interactions with the Grapple rules. I've even seen people on here say they'd refuse to let a clawbarian grapple with the claw. Since underwater combat generally doesn't have any falling damage, you might want to consider going for the opposite of a Barbarian in terms of introducing battlefield hazards to grapple your enemies into: the Shape Water cantrip will let you form 5x5x5 bubbles at will, and then your GM has only two options: declare the bubble keeps water out, in which case you have portable vacuum for suffocating, or declare it doesn't, in which case you can punch with the ocean, like a pistol shrimp, as your bubbles collapse. In fact, if you do want to stick with Sea Elf, a Bladesinger could do some real work with this, since they can combine Shape Water and Grapple inside the same Attack action.
That’s a bad take. Nothing suggests your claws aren’t usable as hands, any more than a Tabaxi or Dragonborn or any other race with claws lacks the ability to hold things.
They aren’t unarmed strikes, so don’t look for Tavern Brawler synergy, but otherwise I don’t see where you’d get off suggesting a claw can’t grapple, hold a shield, climb a rope, etc.
I see what you're suggesting: while you can replace any attack in an Attack with a grapple, the first claw attack ("Claw1") that triggers claw's extra attack must be a claw attack (not a grapple special attack), and you think that the extra claw attack that is granted ("Claw2") must remain a claw attack and not get swapped out.
I agree as to Claw1, but I'm not sure I agree about Claw2, I think you could launder it into a Grapple once you're eligible for it, as its an "attack" during the Attack action.
Rage and Giants might are both bonus actions. So you’ll need 2 turns every combat to come online. Most combats go 3 or less rounds, so you may never actually get to do this cool thing you wanted to do.
My experience is that grapplers need expertise in Athletics. So you’ll need the Skill Expert feat from Tasha’s. You also need advantage on checks, size increase, and resistance to damage. Rune Knight gets 2 of these at level 3 and the resistance at level 7. At that point, beast barbarian is only getting the tail strike reaction and letting you do the fire rune a couple of times. Rune Knight already has a reaction that makes the attacker automatically miss. So extra AC reactions are irrelevant. Plus, fighter AC + HP + resistance means taking a hit is okay. So your down to just a fire rune. I have rune knights at my table. The fire rune is really fun in T2. In T3, it hasn’t worked against a single meaningful enemy.
Also, the Barbarian tail is a weapon. Which means that it negates your unarmed fighting style. You’re better off asking your DM to allow you to RP that your character has a tail and use it for regular unarmed strikes.
Lastly, if you go to level 17+, you need the level 18 Rune Knight feature to continue grappling most baddies. If you took a 3 level Barb dip, you won’t physically be big enough to grapple.
For example, an unarmed strike counts as a melee weapon attack, even though the attacker’s body isn’t considered a weapon.
That's half right. An unarmed strike is a "melee weapon attack", but it is not an "attack with a melee weapon" (or a weapon at all). The distinction is very important. In the case of fire rune, the condition is "when you hit a creature with an attack using a weapon," therefore the unarmed strike doesn't qualify.
Usually unarmed strikes are not weapons.
Natural Weapons are most often described as being used to make Unarmed Strikes, as in the racial features of races like Tabaxi, Minotaur, etc. According to the SAC (but also, according to plain and natural language), Natural Weapons are weapons. So if your Unarmed Strike is an Unarmed Strike made with a Natural Weapon, then it will count as an attack with a weapon, but if it is a regular Unarmed Strike, it may not.
RAW, unarmed strikes cannot be made with a weapon. So if you have natural weapons, you cannot use them for unarmed strikes.
I see what you're suggesting: while you can replace any attack in an Attack with a grapple, the first claw attack ("Claw1") that triggers claw's extra attack must be a claw attack (not a grapple special attack), and you think that the extra claw attack that is granted ("Claw2") must remain a claw attack and not get swapped out.
I agree as to Claw1, but I'm not sure I agree about Claw2, I think you could launder it into a Grapple once you're eligible for it, as its an "attack" during the Attack action.
Claw2 is "a claw attack". A grapple is a special attack that uses a hand; the fact that the hand happens to have a claw on it does not transform attacks with that hand into claw attacks.
Again, I don't know that there's textual support for treating a claw as not being a hand, which is what I think you're saying?
Barbarian 5, whose Attack action would ordinarily include two attacks ("Attack1," "Attack2"), but who with Claws activated, could make an extra claw attack ("CAttack3") if at least one of those two is made with a claw.
Attack1 and Attack2 ordinarily can be substituted for Grapples, no confusion there, right?
If Attack1 and Attack2 are both made as grapples (or any other attack that isn't using a claw as a weapon), then the Barbarian is not eligible for CAttack3. I agree with you.
But, if they do qualify for CAttack3 (maybe they made Attack1 as a shove, CAttack2 as a claw attack), then I see no reason why CAttack3 can't be a grapple.
Grappling
When you want to grab a creature or wrestle with it, you can use the Attack action to make a special melee attack, a grapple. If you're able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them.
The target of your grapple must be no more than one size larger than you and must be within your reach. Using at least one free hand, you try to seize the target by making a grapple check instead of an attack roll....
At the point where they have CAttack3 unlocked, are they able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action? Yes. Do they have an attack they haven't taken yet, which can be replaced? Yes. Do they have at least one free hand? Yes, because claws are still hands.
For a pure grappler, the rogue scout dip is insanely powerful. It allows extra movement on your turn and as a reaction. Thus creates additional opportunities to reposition enemies into AOE threats.
Mobile is also a very good feat. Grappler need every inch they can get.
Whether or not jumping causes grappled creatures to fall is such a fundamental question for grappling, that it's almost like a rewritten guide would need two versions for Luchador vs. Ground Pound mode. Supplexing luchadors take every ounce of mobility they can find, while a ground pounder would probably focus more on getting beefy with HP and AC. Once upon a time, finding a way to pick up Expertise for Athletics was the main challenge of making a viable grappler, but now that it's a given, the sky has really opened up for doing something interesting once you grab someone.
Monk, Barbarian, and Bloodhunter all have a very strong place as the core of a grappler build. Glory or Conquest Paladin, Champion or Battlemaster Fighter, Scout or Thief Rogue, Moon or Spore Druid, or Gloomstalker Ranger might sometimes make an appearance as well, depending on what it is you're trying to do once you have them grabbed.
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Not sure if anyone has pointed this out yet, but creatures grant cover to one another depending on their size and spacing. A medium creature grappling another medium creature should enjoy the benefits of half cover. Half cover is a +2 to AC and dexterity saving throws. In some situations that’s better than wielding a shield.
Unarmes strikes are considered melee weapon attacks for purposes of activating abilities like the Fire Rune or most of the Battlemaster maneuvers.
Reference: https://media.wizards.com/2016/downloads/DND/SA-Compendium.pdf#page=10 (Page 10)
I love this idea, we need a name for it. Maybe, instead of "sword and board", it's "sword and bard"?
That's half right. An unarmed strike is a "melee weapon attack", but it is not an "attack with a melee weapon" (or a weapon at all). The distinction is very important. In the case of fire rune, the condition is "when you hit a creature with an attack using a weapon," therefore the unarmed strike doesn't qualify.
Usually unarmed strikes are not weapons.
Natural Weapons are most often described as being used to make Unarmed Strikes, as in the racial features of races like Tabaxi, Minotaur, etc. According to the SAC (but also, according to plain and natural language), Natural Weapons are weapons. So if your Unarmed Strike is an Unarmed Strike made with a Natural Weapon, then it will count as an attack with a weapon, but if it is a regular Unarmed Strike, it may not.
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that's a bit of a bummer...
I guess, that's cloud and stone for level 3. the +2 for 10 mins aren't worth not having the other 2 runes IMO. Those effects are crazy good and stone gives you 120 darkvision.
Don't forget the hand crossbow in your example. I would grapple, shove for prone, drag back to party for A Bad Time™, then when the enemy's buddy tries to come and help, pull my hand crossbow (maintaining my grapple with the other hand) and shoot the mofo and lock'em up with fire chains of ouchiness(which incidentally leave the buddy restrained too). Then proceed to give the buddy A Bad Time™ as well.
Anyone have any insight into the interplay of Path of the Beast and Rune Knight? I'm picturing the grapple and shove then tail attack and reaction AC boost synergy. If you're doing multiple grapples(as opposed to single) that makes 3 enemies you can lock down and attack. Grapple/shove 1 and 2 then tail attack 3 and give 'em the chains. Then theoretically you can hit any one of them with the tail for damage and you still have the AC boost as a reaction.
Or if you're low on health going into it just do bite instead of tail then Bite for heals.
And if you take the Unarmed Fighting fighting style you don't need the claws at all.
You guys are clearly more experienced than me with this stuff as I've never played a grappler. I'm going to try to keep it relatively simple and stick to single target grapple. How would you guys build as the above level by level? It's for an underwater campaign and I don't really want to min/max, I just want to have fun/casual play. I was thinking sea elf. I'd go Goliath but I'm leery of using a magic item for the water breathing as an antimagic field means I'm drowning. And I don't necessarily want to put 6 levels into Barb for the swimming and water breathing but maybe I have to to keep goliath because of how suboptimal sea elf is. What do you think?
If you have access to the Ravnica races, Simic Hybrids are excellent: at level 1 you can breathe underwater and have a swim speed, and at level 5 you can grow an extra pair of grappling tentacles. As a bonus, Simic Hybrids are made from human, elf, and vedalken parents, so you can still have sea elf parents if you want.
Path of the Beast is a risky click, because all three Beast weapons will have GM-dependent interactions with the Grapple rules. I've even seen people on here say they'd refuse to let a clawbarian grapple with the claw. Since underwater combat generally doesn't have any falling damage, you might want to consider going for the opposite of a Barbarian in terms of introducing battlefield hazards to grapple your enemies into: the Shape Water cantrip will let you form 5x5x5 bubbles at will, and then your GM has only two options: declare the bubble keeps water out, in which case you have portable vacuum for suffocating, or declare it doesn't, in which case you can punch with the ocean, like a pistol shrimp, as your bubbles collapse. In fact, if you do want to stick with Sea Elf, a Bladesinger could do some real work with this, since they can combine Shape Water and Grapple inside the same Attack action.
Which is to say, they don't have any interaction with the Grapple rules at all. Path of the Beast grants weapons, and grappling does not use weapons.
That’s a bad take. Nothing suggests your claws aren’t usable as hands, any more than a Tabaxi or Dragonborn or any other race with claws lacks the ability to hold things.
They aren’t unarmed strikes, so don’t look for Tavern Brawler synergy, but otherwise I don’t see where you’d get off suggesting a claw can’t grapple, hold a shield, climb a rope, etc.
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Oh, I agree. It's just that the special 'attack twice' trick from claws does not permit you to replace either of those attacks with a grapple.
I see what you're suggesting: while you can replace any attack in an Attack with a grapple, the first claw attack ("Claw1") that triggers claw's extra attack must be a claw attack (not a grapple special attack), and you think that the extra claw attack that is granted ("Claw2") must remain a claw attack and not get swapped out.
I agree as to Claw1, but I'm not sure I agree about Claw2, I think you could launder it into a Grapple once you're eligible for it, as its an "attack" during the Attack action.
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First paragraph is most important.
Rage and Giants might are both bonus actions. So you’ll need 2 turns every combat to come online. Most combats go 3 or less rounds, so you may never actually get to do this cool thing you wanted to do.
My experience is that grapplers need expertise in Athletics. So you’ll need the Skill Expert feat from Tasha’s.
You also need advantage on checks, size increase, and resistance to damage. Rune Knight gets 2 of these at level 3 and the resistance at level 7.
At that point, beast barbarian is only getting the tail strike reaction and letting you do the fire rune a couple of times.
Rune Knight already has a reaction that makes the attacker automatically miss. So extra AC reactions are irrelevant. Plus, fighter AC + HP + resistance means taking a hit is okay.
So your down to just a fire rune. I have rune knights at my table. The fire rune is really fun in T2. In T3, it hasn’t worked against a single meaningful enemy.
Also, the Barbarian tail is a weapon. Which means that it negates your unarmed fighting style. You’re better off asking your DM to allow you to RP that your character has a tail and use it for regular unarmed strikes.
Lastly, if you go to level 17+, you need the level 18 Rune Knight feature to continue grappling most baddies. If you took a 3 level Barb dip, you won’t physically be big enough to grapple.
I'm really more interested in the tail tbh. Reach attack, reaction for a d8 boost to AC? F yeah.
RAW, unarmed strikes cannot be made with a weapon. So if you have natural weapons, you cannot use them for unarmed strikes.
Claw2 is "a claw attack". A grapple is a special attack that uses a hand; the fact that the hand happens to have a claw on it does not transform attacks with that hand into claw attacks.
Again, I don't know that there's textual support for treating a claw as not being a hand, which is what I think you're saying?
Barbarian 5, whose Attack action would ordinarily include two attacks ("Attack1," "Attack2"), but who with Claws activated, could make an extra claw attack ("CAttack3") if at least one of those two is made with a claw.
At the point where they have CAttack3 unlocked, are they able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action? Yes. Do they have an attack they haven't taken yet, which can be replaced? Yes. Do they have at least one free hand? Yes, because claws are still hands.
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