Yesterday in our group a discussion about disguising from undead came up. Our Changeling had the idea that skeletons would not attack her if she made herself look like one. Now, Changelings should be able to turn into skeletons (and if not, a zombie would have the same effect), but how do uncontrolled undead even operate? I know they indiscriminately attack living beings, but what do they do to be able to tell what is alive and what isn't? Would a zombie disguise be capable of fooling undead?
By the rules, I don't see why that wouldn't work. It should even automatically succeed due to Change Appearance's wording. If the GM wants to say it's a bit harder and say they have some rudimentary sense in this area, they could say the undead are automatically suspicious and thus get Perception or Insight checks to see through the disguise (which the Changeling would oppose with Deception, gaining Advantage from Change Appearance).
On a thematic/world consistency level, I think the key question is would uncontrolled skeletons be able to automatically tell that a lich under an illusion, or a vampire, are undead and thus be used as an utterly reliable undead detector (presumably, as a skull in a jar or some such)? If they can't be used like that, then the reverse (ie: disguising the living as the dead) should also work, and Changelings should likely be better at it than anyone else.
I've always considered Skeletons, Zombies, and similar, more like a trap than an encounter prior to initiative.
As you mentioned, they're indiscriminate, so anything from a rat to a giant would "trigger" them to start acting. A Changling, even if it looked like an undead, would be a creature that is new to the location and would trigger the creatures to animate.
There's two major tropes I can think of that would cause reanimated dead to be a thing. First is the unresolved goal, the undead were creatures with a mission or goal of some sort that they did not accomplish and their spirits could not rest. The other is a magic that causes the undead to rise in service of a creature, diety, or item, even if the service is simply go out and eat brains because chaos. With both of those tropes you can easily see how recognizing another undead could be allowed, or disallowed, based purely on how you feel. An argument for, and against, can be made all day long without a strong concensus being reached.
In the end it's up to you, the DM, as to how you want the particular situation to play out. Reward the out of the box thinking when it fits, have the method fail if it doesn't, but remain consistent with the resolution. If need be, give them some explanation through the NPCS, items in the dungeon, or research they do.
This really comes down to the DM figuring "how undead work".
If they "indiscriminately attack living beings", they need a way to be able to detect living beings.
Once the DM decides how they detect living beings, the question answers itself.
If they are relying on sight/senses/memory/recognition, then a disguise would work perfectly well.
If they are simply drawn toward the aura of a life-force, then the disguise would not work.
In my opinion, the "lifeforce aura detector" is the simplest, and therefore the most likely. Having simple undead rely on sight, recognition, and memory is more complex.
But it's the DM's call.
One amusing side-effect possibility of having the Undead rely on sight/senses/memory/recognition is that if you cast a spell to disguise one of the undead, it would presumably start to be attacked by it's companions :D
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Your question led me to the Monster Manual for skeletons and zombies. They have changed in 5e. they are no longer the mindless creatures they used to be. Skeletons are Intelligence 6! Zombies only rate Int 3, but they still have a rudimentary intelligence. They are described as being animated by a necromantic magic that compels them to attack the living. This suggests that they have a magical awareness of who and what is a living being. If this awareness operates through magic, it seems reasonable to me that magic could also provide a disguise from it.
I personally like the trope of characters being able to disguise themselves as undead and safely pass them. At least with the lower intelligence sorts. We see it often in The Walking Dead.
DM's call on this one. If you are a player I would ask for clarification before you actually try it. "Rule of Cool" says to me that the Changeling should be able to do it, at least for short periods.
Going back and re-reading the skeleton description, they actually look like they have rudimentary intellect: they can understand commands, communicate through gestures, and occasionally mimic the acts they performed in life. It looks like "someone is home", even if it's an animating spirit of rudimentary intelligence and some ( limited ) access to the host's memories.
I'm leaning toward the sight/perception/memory model, after reading that.
If that holds "true" then it should be possible to fool a skeleton - or other low level undead - with-regards-to friend or foe identification. Which means you should be able to both confuse the undead into thinking you're friendly, and also convince them that other undead are living via illusion and the like.
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giving the undead special senses that they don't have in their stat block to detect the living might seem innocent enough but it alters their CR rating and makes them much more dangerous... it does sort of feel like it fits 'storywise' though... always these things boil down to what the DM decides
I don't see how it alters the CR, it doesn't change their HP, AC, Damage, To Hit, Attributes, DC, or anything like that. Echolocation on a Bat that is 0 CR or a CR3 Hook Horror, it's more than just that which changes the CR.
Looking in the DMG (280-281) at creature creation, there is no CR modification for Echolocation, Web Sense (a spider's ability to tell if a creature touched any of it's webbing), Keen Senses, Devil's Sight, and Blind Senses. All of those are extra-sensory perceptions that would work similar to "sense living"
giving anything extra to a monster changes it's CR... some changes may seem insignificant while others may seem drastic... the things you mention often make more of a difference...
As you mentioned "RAW", by "RAW" it does not change CR because the DMG says it doesn't.
this thread has been going strong over whether they have a special 'detect life' ability... by the way, using RAW, they don't, they have normal senses and darkvision, that's it... but a DM could always alter them to make them more powerful
Agreed, by "RAW" they don't have any other abilities, and it is up to the DM to alter anything as they wish.
I stand corrected, on page 273 of the DMG it says if you want to create a new monster, the easiest way is to alter an already existing stat block, and by changing languages, alignment, or adding special senses have no effect on a monsters CR rating, but changing it's hp or damage would.
Although I think by special senses, they mean things like darkvision, tremor sense, blindsight, or truesight or any of the other things that already exist in the game. Not even sure how a 'detect the living' mechanic would affect a creature's CR rating, if it would at all?
I would personally just save myself the headache and trouble and use the skeletons and zombies the way they are.
This could be a hand-wave ability simply explaining why the skeletons/zombies/undead react to living creatures rather than turn on themselves. Vampires can sense the heartbeat of their prey, zombies can smell brains, skeletons....yea I don't have one lol.
I had a similar conundrum but I believe I have an answer to us both. My conundrum was this would an undead party of skeletons,zombies and possibly ghosts be picked on from their respective "species"?
My answer is this
Ghosts can't harm ghosts because of their immunities but would be able to tell my party acts differently than other undead.
Zombies want the living so living things such as breath,speech, heartbeat,smell would betray the living. Zombies want to eat constantly thus they constantly search for victims so their passive should be always on searching for those signs. Now my party doesn't breath, they smell of death and they don't have a heartbeat so unless they talk they are good. Nonetheless they should pass a check no matter what.
Skeletons have a bit more intelligence and remember somewhat their past movements and they copy humans so they should be able to tell the difference as well but with a passive perception of 9 not speaking around them should do the trick.
Any group of mindless undead will attack anything that moves that isn't part of that group. So they don't attack each other, mainly because they propably rose into undeath as a group, for the same reason, moved by the same force - but anything else get's the same treatment.
Doesn't need any fancy juggling to operate. One size fits all.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
The Shapechanger doesn't change creature type to Undead though, the Changeling remains a Fey. Besides that, it'd be up to DM.
Fooling a monster with a change of appearance could require an ability check in order for it to not consider you an enemy, provided you're not hostile.
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Yesterday in our group a discussion about disguising from undead came up. Our Changeling had the idea that skeletons would not attack her if she made herself look like one. Now, Changelings should be able to turn into skeletons (and if not, a zombie would have the same effect), but how do uncontrolled undead even operate? I know they indiscriminately attack living beings, but what do they do to be able to tell what is alive and what isn't? Would a zombie disguise be capable of fooling undead?
By the rules, I don't see why that wouldn't work. It should even automatically succeed due to Change Appearance's wording. If the GM wants to say it's a bit harder and say they have some rudimentary sense in this area, they could say the undead are automatically suspicious and thus get Perception or Insight checks to see through the disguise (which the Changeling would oppose with Deception, gaining Advantage from Change Appearance).
On a thematic/world consistency level, I think the key question is would uncontrolled skeletons be able to automatically tell that a lich under an illusion, or a vampire, are undead and thus be used as an utterly reliable undead detector (presumably, as a skull in a jar or some such)? If they can't be used like that, then the reverse (ie: disguising the living as the dead) should also work, and Changelings should likely be better at it than anyone else.
I've always considered Skeletons, Zombies, and similar, more like a trap than an encounter prior to initiative.
As you mentioned, they're indiscriminate, so anything from a rat to a giant would "trigger" them to start acting. A Changling, even if it looked like an undead, would be a creature that is new to the location and would trigger the creatures to animate.
There's two major tropes I can think of that would cause reanimated dead to be a thing. First is the unresolved goal, the undead were creatures with a mission or goal of some sort that they did not accomplish and their spirits could not rest. The other is a magic that causes the undead to rise in service of a creature, diety, or item, even if the service is simply go out and eat brains because chaos. With both of those tropes you can easily see how recognizing another undead could be allowed, or disallowed, based purely on how you feel. An argument for, and against, can be made all day long without a strong concensus being reached.
In the end it's up to you, the DM, as to how you want the particular situation to play out. Reward the out of the box thinking when it fits, have the method fail if it doesn't, but remain consistent with the resolution. If need be, give them some explanation through the NPCS, items in the dungeon, or research they do.
This really comes down to the DM figuring "how undead work".
If they "indiscriminately attack living beings", they need a way to be able to detect living beings.
Once the DM decides how they detect living beings, the question answers itself.
If they are relying on sight/senses/memory/recognition, then a disguise would work perfectly well.
If they are simply drawn toward the aura of a life-force, then the disguise would not work.
In my opinion, the "lifeforce aura detector" is the simplest, and therefore the most likely. Having simple undead rely on sight, recognition, and memory is more complex.
But it's the DM's call.
One amusing side-effect possibility of having the Undead rely on sight/senses/memory/recognition is that if you cast a spell to disguise one of the undead, it would presumably start to be attacked by it's companions :D
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
Your question led me to the Monster Manual for skeletons and zombies. They have changed in 5e. they are no longer the mindless creatures they used to be. Skeletons are Intelligence 6! Zombies only rate Int 3, but they still have a rudimentary intelligence. They are described as being animated by a necromantic magic that compels them to attack the living. This suggests that they have a magical awareness of who and what is a living being. If this awareness operates through magic, it seems reasonable to me that magic could also provide a disguise from it.
I personally like the trope of characters being able to disguise themselves as undead and safely pass them. At least with the lower intelligence sorts. We see it often in The Walking Dead.
DM's call on this one. If you are a player I would ask for clarification before you actually try it. "Rule of Cool" says to me that the Changeling should be able to do it, at least for short periods.
Going back and re-reading the skeleton description, they actually look like they have rudimentary intellect: they can understand commands, communicate through gestures, and occasionally mimic the acts they performed in life. It looks like "someone is home", even if it's an animating spirit of rudimentary intelligence and some ( limited ) access to the host's memories.
I'm leaning toward the sight/perception/memory model, after reading that.
If that holds "true" then it should be possible to fool a skeleton - or other low level undead - with-regards-to friend or foe identification. Which means you should be able to both confuse the undead into thinking you're friendly, and also convince them that other undead are living via illusion and the like.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
I don't see how it alters the CR, it doesn't change their HP, AC, Damage, To Hit, Attributes, DC, or anything like that. Echolocation on a Bat that is 0 CR or a CR3 Hook Horror, it's more than just that which changes the CR.
Looking in the DMG (280-281) at creature creation, there is no CR modification for Echolocation, Web Sense (a spider's ability to tell if a creature touched any of it's webbing), Keen Senses, Devil's Sight, and Blind Senses. All of those are extra-sensory perceptions that would work similar to "sense living"
As you mentioned "RAW", by "RAW" it does not change CR because the DMG says it doesn't.
Agreed, by "RAW" they don't have any other abilities, and it is up to the DM to alter anything as they wish.
This could be a hand-wave ability simply explaining why the skeletons/zombies/undead react to living creatures rather than turn on themselves. Vampires can sense the heartbeat of their prey, zombies can smell brains, skeletons....yea I don't have one lol.
*facepalm*
Yea...I...um...I dun goofed on that one.
I had a similar conundrum but I believe I have an answer to us both. My conundrum was this would an undead party of skeletons,zombies and possibly ghosts be picked on from their respective "species"?
My answer is this
Ghosts can't harm ghosts because of their immunities but would be able to tell my party acts differently than other undead.
Zombies want the living so living things such as breath,speech, heartbeat,smell would betray the living. Zombies want to eat constantly thus they constantly search for victims so their passive should be always on searching for those signs. Now my party doesn't breath, they smell of death and they don't have a heartbeat so unless they talk they are good. Nonetheless they should pass a check no matter what.
Skeletons have a bit more intelligence and remember somewhat their past movements and they copy humans so they should be able to tell the difference as well but with a passive perception of 9 not speaking around them should do the trick.
Without gloves. They're not worried about germs.
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I'd go with this:
Any group of mindless undead will attack anything that moves that isn't part of that group. So they don't attack each other, mainly because they propably rose into undeath as a group, for the same reason, moved by the same force - but anything else get's the same treatment.
Doesn't need any fancy juggling to operate. One size fits all.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
The Dm should consider the range of the creatures senses and then apply a simple perception check/counter check to see if they notice the imposters.
All the ability scores are already there you just need to find out what the Dm is willing to do.
The Shapechanger doesn't change creature type to Undead though, the Changeling remains a Fey. Besides that, it'd be up to DM.
Fooling a monster with a change of appearance could require an ability check in order for it to not consider you an enemy, provided you're not hostile.