I've recently started a new study, and it's ultimately unimportant, but I hope to document the changes and rationale as I go.
Ultimately this is just a way to play with numbers, so as much as I'd like to say Dexterity is statistically the best stat for these reasons, I know this project can't do that.
Regardless, I've started off with instances of Saving Throws among all spells (there is one that I don't have and a few are doubled up, like Hideous Laughter and Tasha's Hideous Laughter).
Points and Multipliers: For each instance of a saving throw, that score gets one point. Those points are also divided among play tiers. The reason being is that a player who builds their character to survive first tier spells will get far more uses of their saving throw expenditure than a player preparing for fourth tier spells. Not only do you face first tier first, but the DM can swarm the PC's with low level spellcasters to keep them relevant in fourth tier, while fourth tier spells shouldn't ever be used against first or second tier PC's without the intent of a TPK. Each Tier also gets a multiplier because its spells are more or less valuable.
First Tier (Cantrip - 2nd-Level) gets x4; Second Tier (3rd-Level - 5th-Level) gets x3; Third Tier (6th-Level - 8th-Level) gets x2, and Fourth Tier (9th-Level) gets x1.
Thus far the scores are as follows:
Strength: 60 (10x4; 6x3; 1x2; 0)
Dexterity: 189 (20x4; 26x3; 15x2; 1x1)
Constitution: 133 (15x4; 15x3; 13x2; 2x1)
Intelligence: 15 (1x4; 2x3; 2x2; 1x1)
Wisdom: 156 (19x4; 20x3; 8x2; 4x1)
Charisma: 40 (3x4; 6x3; 5x2; 0)
Patterns noticed at this stage: Three stats easilly break 100. Two stats hover around 50. Intelligence doesn't matter yet. What this means more effectively is that three Saving Throws are very important, while three saving throws barely matter. Later I hope to compare this to Saving Throw proficiencies for game design purposes.
The Next Step: There is an additional way to defend against spells, but it isn't a throw. It's through Armor Class. AC is heavily influenced by Strength (for Heavy Armour) and Dexterity (for Medium and Light Armour). Wisdom also factors in for Monks. Constitution factors in for Barbarians, as well as for the HP to survive all damaging spells, thus a way to calculate AC into the skills should be devised.
The current AC plan (yet to be executed) is add one point to each skill for each subclass that cares. This will result in a huge boost to Constitution and Dexterity. It will also coincidentally leave the two lowest stats farther behind.
It appears that there are two Super Stats (Dex and Con), two Good Stats (Str, and Wis), and two Dump Stats (Int, and Cha) which will be expanded upon later.
No, but seriously, keep up the good work! It's cool to see this kind of analysis (even though actual play looks different...one of my players made my last session way easier for himself with creativity and good Charisma rolls). Look forward to seeing how this ends up!
Considering that each class has one of the saves with over 100 and one of the lesser saves baked in (and considering that reflex->dexterity, fortitude->constitution, and will->wisdom from earlier editions to 5e), it's not surprising. Factoring in skill proficiencies, int and cha make up some ground, con and str lose some, and dex and wis keep plugging on.
As well as the number of saving throws the importance also matters. Intelligence saving throws are very rare but failing an intelligence save is usually really bad this probably puts it on a par with strength and charisma.
A spell caster needs to perform a constitution saving throw whenever it takes damage while holding a concentration spell making con the most important saving throw for spell casters.
Abilities are used for a number of things as well as avoiding damage directly. A high perception (wisdom) can mean you spot the enemies hiding and avoid them completely) a high charisma can mean you persuade / intimidate them into not fighting.
@NaivaraArnuanna That's exactly it. This is fun to do, but in the end, it'll never replace good ole' fashioned role playing.
There are plenty of good arguements for Charisma being the weakest because most DM's have you roleplay, and then might ask for a roll if you don't convince them that anybody could do it.
It'll also return an andwer similar to, "Any player should take Resilient (Dexterity), even though mages are much better off taking Resilient (Constitution)."
Thank you though. Numbers are fun.
@Jegpeg Things like Concentration I'm still trying tonfigure out how to factor in... I'm planning on also including monster abilities (where I expect Intelligence to regain some ground), and maybe a few other spots, like traps.
Theorycrafting World of Warcraft style has come...at least for combat oriented builds. Hard to value INT or CHA for social reasons with numbers.
The matrix is going to be different by class and by sub-class. A hexblade Warlock will move the CHA value higher than a cleric. As also pointed out, the impact of not making a save can vary when compared to monsters (Mind Blast comes to mind as does Stunning Strike). AC is good against physical and maybe half the cantrips. Some cantrips are used more than others.
Another example is for Rogues and Monks; Evasion. For classes that have it instead of full vs. half, it is half vs zero. Dex now has a higher value, as the higher it is, the less you might take. Oh Monks will become proficient in all saves eventually, so the matrix changes again.
When you max a stat at 20, the value of increasing that stat is effectively zero, and the other values change. If your rogue is 20 Dex, what would be the next most valuable stat? Again would vary by sub-class.
Question: I realize you started on the defenses; are you also going to look at offensive values?
I'm not sure if the reason why the op didn't address the offensive aspect is for this reason or another, but I feel that offensive value is pretty self explanatory in most instances. You look at what you want to do and what class you are and choose the corresponding stat(s). Spellcasting? Select the appropriate stat from wisdom, charisma, and intelligence. Ranged weapons? Select dexterity. Melee weapons? Probably strength, with a few instances where dexterity is better. Usually, my melee choice is somewhat determined by my armor/AC calculation choice.
Of course there are niche options like using shillelagh or being a hexblade warlock that are special exceptions to the above rules, and options involving certain skills (looking at you stealth, though there are others) or races like lizardfolk, loxodon, and tortle that give different variations due to builds that are more viable thanks to their ac calculations (and often combined with a skill, like a stealthy lizardfolk cleric or a 2 stat loxodon {shillelagh plus wis spellcasting or hexblade warlock for offense and constitution defense}).
Still, the options are usually fairly clear in this regard, at last for me. Also consider that most of my playing experience is as DM and most of my ideas about character construction come more from theorycrafting than from experience as a result.
Love the math and effort, but yeah, you're basically showing that there are 'generally' offensive and defensive abilities...If you keep going, i'd totally break out the analysis between those with totally different conversations...to your point, not sure what the end result will be other than perhaps your 'unimportant' comment...but still a fun analysis (designers have spent 40 years trying to make this complicated). Although it does underline just how awesome dexterity is as its important to everyone as a defensive stat (common saving throw), important to most as another defensive stat (AC), and vital to some as an offensive stat (dmg/attack modifier).
some other thoughts:
This analysis is also why I always at least consider the Resilient feat as it allows you to be proficient in another savings throw.
in some games (or more like, with some DM's), passive INT & WIS checks are huge. For me, this puts WIS right up there with DEX.
For roles like a support cleric, strength looses its value when it comes to AC...think mithral armor where str doesn't mean anything.
I've recently started a new study, and it's ultimately unimportant, but I hope to document the changes and rationale as I go.
Ultimately this is just a way to play with numbers, so as much as I'd like to say Dexterity is statistically the best stat for these reasons, I know this project can't do that.
Regardless, I've started off with instances of Saving Throws among all spells (there is one that I don't have and a few are doubled up, like Hideous Laughter and Tasha's Hideous Laughter).
Points and Multipliers: For each instance of a saving throw, that score gets one point. Those points are also divided among play tiers. The reason being is that a player who builds their character to survive first tier spells will get far more uses of their saving throw expenditure than a player preparing for fourth tier spells. Not only do you face first tier first, but the DM can swarm the PC's with low level spellcasters to keep them relevant in fourth tier, while fourth tier spells shouldn't ever be used against first or second tier PC's without the intent of a TPK. Each Tier also gets a multiplier because its spells are more or less valuable.
First Tier (Cantrip - 2nd-Level) gets x4; Second Tier (3rd-Level - 5th-Level) gets x3; Third Tier (6th-Level - 8th-Level) gets x2, and Fourth Tier (9th-Level) gets x1.
Thus far the scores are as follows:
Strength: 60 (10x4; 6x3; 1x2; 0)
Dexterity: 189 (20x4; 26x3; 15x2; 1x1)
Constitution: 133 (15x4; 15x3; 13x2; 2x1)
Intelligence: 15 (1x4; 2x3; 2x2; 1x1)
Wisdom: 156 (19x4; 20x3; 8x2; 4x1)
Charisma: 40 (3x4; 6x3; 5x2; 0)
Patterns noticed at this stage: Three stats easilly break 100. Two stats hover around 50. Intelligence doesn't matter yet. What this means more effectively is that three Saving Throws are very important, while three saving throws barely matter. Later I hope to compare this to Saving Throw proficiencies for game design purposes.
The Next Step: There is an additional way to defend against spells, but it isn't a throw. It's through Armor Class. AC is heavily influenced by Strength (for Heavy Armour) and Dexterity (for Medium and Light Armour). Wisdom also factors in for Monks. Constitution factors in for Barbarians, as well as for the HP to survive all damaging spells, thus a way to calculate AC into the skills should be devised.
The current AC plan (yet to be executed) is add one point to each skill for each subclass that cares. This will result in a huge boost to Constitution and Dexterity. It will also coincidentally leave the two lowest stats farther behind.
It appears that there are two Super Stats (Dex and Con), two Good Stats (Str, and Wis), and two Dump Stats (Int, and Cha) which will be expanded upon later.
I love and hate this at the same time. :-)
No, but seriously, keep up the good work! It's cool to see this kind of analysis (even though actual play looks different...one of my players made my last session way easier for himself with creativity and good Charisma rolls). Look forward to seeing how this ends up!
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
Considering that each class has one of the saves with over 100 and one of the lesser saves baked in (and considering that reflex->dexterity, fortitude->constitution, and will->wisdom from earlier editions to 5e), it's not surprising. Factoring in skill proficiencies, int and cha make up some ground, con and str lose some, and dex and wis keep plugging on.
A couple of added complications.
As well as the number of saving throws the importance also matters. Intelligence saving throws are very rare but failing an intelligence save is usually really bad this probably puts it on a par with strength and charisma.
A spell caster needs to perform a constitution saving throw whenever it takes damage while holding a concentration spell making con the most important saving throw for spell casters.
Abilities are used for a number of things as well as avoiding damage directly. A high perception (wisdom) can mean you spot the enemies hiding and avoid them completely) a high charisma can mean you persuade / intimidate them into not fighting.
@NaivaraArnuanna That's exactly it. This is fun to do, but in the end, it'll never replace good ole' fashioned role playing.
There are plenty of good arguements for Charisma being the weakest because most DM's have you roleplay, and then might ask for a roll if you don't convince them that anybody could do it.
It'll also return an andwer similar to, "Any player should take Resilient (Dexterity), even though mages are much better off taking Resilient (Constitution)."
Thank you though. Numbers are fun.
@Jegpeg Things like Concentration I'm still trying tonfigure out how to factor in... I'm planning on also including monster abilities (where I expect Intelligence to regain some ground), and maybe a few other spots, like traps.
Theorycrafting World of Warcraft style has come...at least for combat oriented builds. Hard to value INT or CHA for social reasons with numbers.
The matrix is going to be different by class and by sub-class. A hexblade Warlock will move the CHA value higher than a cleric. As also pointed out, the impact of not making a save can vary when compared to monsters (Mind Blast comes to mind as does Stunning Strike). AC is good against physical and maybe half the cantrips. Some cantrips are used more than others.
Another example is for Rogues and Monks; Evasion. For classes that have it instead of full vs. half, it is half vs zero. Dex now has a higher value, as the higher it is, the less you might take. Oh Monks will become proficient in all saves eventually, so the matrix changes again.
When you max a stat at 20, the value of increasing that stat is effectively zero, and the other values change. If your rogue is 20 Dex, what would be the next most valuable stat? Again would vary by sub-class.
Question: I realize you started on the defenses; are you also going to look at offensive values?
I'm not sure if the reason why the op didn't address the offensive aspect is for this reason or another, but I feel that offensive value is pretty self explanatory in most instances. You look at what you want to do and what class you are and choose the corresponding stat(s). Spellcasting? Select the appropriate stat from wisdom, charisma, and intelligence. Ranged weapons? Select dexterity. Melee weapons? Probably strength, with a few instances where dexterity is better. Usually, my melee choice is somewhat determined by my armor/AC calculation choice.
Of course there are niche options like using shillelagh or being a hexblade warlock that are special exceptions to the above rules, and options involving certain skills (looking at you stealth, though there are others) or races like lizardfolk, loxodon, and tortle that give different variations due to builds that are more viable thanks to their ac calculations (and often combined with a skill, like a stealthy lizardfolk cleric or a 2 stat loxodon {shillelagh plus wis spellcasting or hexblade warlock for offense and constitution defense}).
Still, the options are usually fairly clear in this regard, at last for me. Also consider that most of my playing experience is as DM and most of my ideas about character construction come more from theorycrafting than from experience as a result.
Love the math and effort, but yeah, you're basically showing that there are 'generally' offensive and defensive abilities...If you keep going, i'd totally break out the analysis between those with totally different conversations...to your point, not sure what the end result will be other than perhaps your 'unimportant' comment...but still a fun analysis (designers have spent 40 years trying to make this complicated). Although it does underline just how awesome dexterity is as its important to everyone as a defensive stat (common saving throw), important to most as another defensive stat (AC), and vital to some as an offensive stat (dmg/attack modifier).
some other thoughts:
This analysis is also why I always at least consider the Resilient feat as it allows you to be proficient in another savings throw.
in some games (or more like, with some DM's), passive INT & WIS checks are huge. For me, this puts WIS right up there with DEX.
For roles like a support cleric, strength looses its value when it comes to AC...think mithral armor where str doesn't mean anything.
Guide to the Five Factions (PWYW)
Deck of Decks