I mean, I had fun in a one on one fight when I cast Bane on someone and kept casting Vicious Mockery while staying up in their face. Combined with Shield, I was able to taunt tank the enemy on a mission where we didn't have a tanky character.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Spending your action to inflict disadvantage on one of your enemy's attacks is comparable to True Strike, only worse
This is objectively incorrect, and I will not let it go unaddressed. Vicious mockery bypasses AC, does damage, and increases party survivability. True strike spends a turn not attacking so your attack has 2 chances to hit next turn, and requires concentration and to name your target a turn early.
You could try to argue that VM is worse than dodging in the same way TS is worse than attacking twice. Except dodging doesn't do damage or benefit the party, so even that wouldn't be completely accurate, just more accurate.
I always felt Vicious Mockery was useful for those turns where a bonus action spell needs to be used :) otherwise your action is largely wasted if your dex isn't great for ranged weapons.
This is objectively incorrect, and I will not let it go unaddressed.
Okay, great, I love a debate - as long as we can both agree to not make it personal. Debates are fun. Arguments are not. Agreed?
Vicious mockery bypasses AC, does damage
Pitiful damage. Frankly, I think 1d4 is negligible.
increases party survivability.
Nope. It effectively gives the enemy an extra turn to attack albeit with one of his attacks in this extra round at a disadvantage
True strike spends a turn not attacking so your attack has 2 chances to hit next turn, and requires concentration and to name your target a turn early.
I mean, I had fun in a one on one fight when I cast Bane on someone and kept casting Vicious Mockery while staying up in their face. Combined with Shield, I was able to taunt tank the enemy on a mission where we didn't have a tanky character.
Check the math on that. You are doing no damage in return and every so often he lands an attack on you. Now, carry that to its natural conclusion and it results in you dead and him standing there unharmed.
I mean, I had fun in a one on one fight when I cast Bane on someone and kept casting Vicious Mockery while staying up in their face. Combined with Shield, I was able to taunt tank the enemy on a mission where we didn't have a tanky character.
Check the math on that. You are doing no damage in return and every so often he lands an attack on you. Now, carry that to its natural conclusion and it results in you dead and him standing there unharmed.
It was small damage, not no damage, and the point was that I was able to take the place of a missing tank not a missing damage dealer. It was also kinda fun to make the enemy look like a bumbling fool. The synergy is good, because Bane makes Vicious Mockery more likely to land. Then they have to deal with an attack that's both at Disadvantage and -1d4 to hit.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
But the debate is useless if you keep speaking in platitudes, ignoring what other people are saying and talking past them. Just because you have a counter-argument doesn't mean your argument is correct.
I mean, I had fun in a one on one fight when I cast Bane on someone and kept casting Vicious Mockery while staying up in their face. Combined with Shield, I was able to taunt tank the enemy on a mission where we didn't have a tanky character.
Check the math on that. You are doing no damage in return and every so often he lands an attack on you. Now, carry that to its natural conclusion and it results in you dead and him standing there unharmed.
I'd say all your arguments are based on the idea that you're the only character in the room and that all enemies have multi-attack capabilities.
Sure, you aren't personally dealing much damage with Vicious Mockery. But over the course of a battle, you're decreasing the enemy's effectiveness in a statistically-significant way (a more or less 25% lower chance to hit per attack) while letting your allies - who are all much better at dealing damage than you are anyway - go to town on the enemy.
Nope. It effectively gives the enemy an extra turn to attack albeit with one of his attacks in this extra round at a disadvantage
... What are you talking about?
Granting Disadvantage on an enemies next attack is virtually the most powerful effect that can come from a Cantrip, besides maybe Shocking Grasps ability to rid them of their reaction.
At this point, you've been given the advantages of Vicious Mockery. You can decide that it's not enough for you, and not use it, that's okay. But I don't think there's anything anyone can say to convince you of its value at this point.
It seems like you're looking for a killer argument that would make the spell amazing, but it's a cantrip. It's a good cantrip, it's a cantrip worth casting, but it's still a cantrip. it does less damage than a crossbow, but has other advantages. It's not supposed to be the center point of your strategy, and it won't turn the tide of a battle, but it does its job, and can be used on turns where you already have a concentration spell going to help allies, even though it's not flashy.
I always felt Vicious Mockery was useful for those turns where a bonus action spell needs to be used :) otherwise your action is largely wasted if your dex isn't great for ranged weapons.
I don’t know too much about stats but but it works really well as just a stress breaker in the actual group. I was playing a bard and the rest of my party was basically all paladins except for two clerics for heals but we were having the fight of our lives and I cast vicious mockery which dealt damage not much but some gave it disadvantage which saved the life of our cleric and was a complete icebreaker I always use “yo mama” jokes for vicious mockery and it kills plus it’s a Cantrip not some god spell that is meant for damage just a funny Cantrip that deals some damage and gives them disadvantage but if you don’t like it that’s fine because you don’t have to use it and don’t have to play a bard but that’s just me
lf you think that this cantrip is bad then You have less sense than the Good Lord gave a common cabbage,you feebleminded cur (roll a wis save) (no offence entended,this was just to show some fun that can be had with this.)
The 2.5 average damage from a 1d4 isn't significantly less than the 7 average damage from a single greatsword attack in the grand scale of things. Sure the greatsword almost does 3x the damage and can be used with extra attack to get more hits in, but it's still only 4.5 more average damage. Sure that adds up over time. But so does the damage mitigated through the disadvantage that is imposed on a failed save. Direct damage leading to death mitigates more damage, but the greatsword strike that fails to kill the creature or cause the creature to run away mitigates less damage than the imposed disadvantage. Both options are better than healing damage from an efficiency standpoint. The extra crispy option is that vicious mockery combos well with a character that can cast Toll the Dead, since the successful 1d4 attack bumps Toll from 1d8 to 1d12. Both spells are targeting the same save which is a save that is frequently useful to target, particularly against high AC types.
Consider the usage against a hobgoblin. 18 AC but +0 to wisdom saves means that the wisdom save is the more efficient attack. Meanwhile, if the hobgoblin has a friend within range to enable martial advantage, it's attack can cause 1d10+1+2d6 damage in a worse case scenario which is 14 average damage. Disadvantage on that attack is a massive help to party survivability, particularly at low level. If you and your cleric friend who is casting toll the dead both target the hobgoblin, you are decreasing the chances of that 14 average damage from going out while increasing the damage of the cleric from 4.5 average damage to 6.5 average damage while also imposing 2.5 average damage (assuming the hobgoblin hadn't been damaged before). That's potentially a swing of +18.5 damage in your favor from a little old cantrip.
I'll grant you that this example is a bit simplistic and doesn't factor in the chances to hit, but I think it shows how powerful a tool vicious mockery can be in the right situation. Of course, there are situations when it won't work as well. Those instances are when you'll need a different tool.
It is a bit discreate. Insulting something wth a good "Your mama" comment or throwing a firebolt at him is likely to get quite different reactions from the city guard.
It is also allways helpful with different damage types if you meet something with damage resistance / immunity.
Bards have two Cantrips that do damage: Vicious Mockery, and Thunderclap.
Thunderclap is limited to melee range, does slightly more damage than Vicious Mockery, but requires a Constitution save. It's also an AoE that doesn't distinguish friendly targets.
If you want to have a damaging Cantrip, then Vicious Mockery is basically it (especially if you're limited to the PHB).
Are there better uses for your action than using a Cantrip? Possibly, but not always.
Would it be better to attack with a ranged weapon? Possibly, but not always.
Would you be better off learning a Cantrip with more non-combat applications? Possibly, but not always.
Like so many other things in the game, it's a choice. Few things in the game are so good that you should always take it without question, and few are so bad that you should never take them.
Disclaimer: I have attempted to run modern homebrew. It never went very far, but I've seen this spell in action a few times.
Vicious Mockery ignores cover, gives disadvantage on one attack roll, only requires verbal components and is a cantrip. It's absolutely broken in FISH&CHIPS (Fighting In Someone's House and Causing Havoc In People's Streets) situations. Which make up the vast majority of modern urban combat.
It's also decent at weakening a target without killing it so your buddy can close in with a TASER more safely.
Oh, and did I mention you can carry it everywhere you want, unlike an AR-15? Hell, even sneaking a .22LR Derringer with Advantage on your Sleight of Hand check can go wrong if there are metal detector checkpoints... This cantrip is pretty much the ultimate in Concealed Carry... You can use it anywhere and never run out of ammo for it.
Vicious Mockery does not ignore cover, not sure where you're getting that from. Sacred Flame is the only damaging cantrip that ignores cover.
Vicious Mockery ignores half cover and three-quarters cover insofar as it's not an attack so it doesn't care about AC.
I'm just gonna echo what everyone else is saying and say that disadvantage on an attack is really powerful when you can do it over and over again from a distance at no cost.
Vicious Mockery does not ignore cover, not sure where you're getting that from. Sacred Flame is the only damaging cantrip that ignores cover.
Vicious Mockery ignores half cover and three-quarters cover insofar as it's not an attack so it doesn't care about AC.
I'm just gonna echo what everyone else is saying and say that disadvantage on an attack is really powerful when you can do it over and over again from a distance at no cost.
For some reason had it in my head that Vicious Mockery targeted Dex. Cover isn't only for attacks, it also provides a +2 (for half) or +5 (for 3/4's) on Dexterity Saving throws, but yes as Vicious Mockery targets Wisdom it indeed ignores cover. My bad.
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I mean, I had fun in a one on one fight when I cast Bane on someone and kept casting Vicious Mockery while staying up in their face. Combined with Shield, I was able to taunt tank the enemy on a mission where we didn't have a tanky character.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
This is objectively incorrect, and I will not let it go unaddressed. Vicious mockery bypasses AC, does damage, and increases party survivability. True strike spends a turn not attacking so your attack has 2 chances to hit next turn, and requires concentration and to name your target a turn early.
You could try to argue that VM is worse than dodging in the same way TS is worse than attacking twice. Except dodging doesn't do damage or benefit the party, so even that wouldn't be completely accurate, just more accurate.
I always felt Vicious Mockery was useful for those turns where a bonus action spell needs to be used :) otherwise your action is largely wasted if your dex isn't great for ranged weapons.
Okay, great, I love a debate - as long as we can both agree to not make it personal. Debates are fun. Arguments are not. Agreed?
Pitiful damage. Frankly, I think 1d4 is negligible.
Nope. It effectively gives the enemy an extra turn to attack albeit with one of his attacks in this extra round at a disadvantage
TS also doesn't require a saving throw
Check the math on that. You are doing no damage in return and every so often he lands an attack on you. Now, carry that to its natural conclusion and it results in you dead and him standing there unharmed.
It was small damage, not no damage, and the point was that I was able to take the place of a missing tank not a missing damage dealer. It was also kinda fun to make the enemy look like a bumbling fool. The synergy is good, because Bane makes Vicious Mockery more likely to land. Then they have to deal with an attack that's both at Disadvantage and -1d4 to hit.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
But the debate is useless if you keep speaking in platitudes, ignoring what other people are saying and talking past them. Just because you have a counter-argument doesn't mean your argument is correct.
I'd say all your arguments are based on the idea that you're the only character in the room and that all enemies have multi-attack capabilities.
Sure, you aren't personally dealing much damage with Vicious Mockery. But over the course of a battle, you're decreasing the enemy's effectiveness in a statistically-significant way (a more or less 25% lower chance to hit per attack) while letting your allies - who are all much better at dealing damage than you are anyway - go to town on the enemy.
... What are you talking about?
Granting Disadvantage on an enemies next attack is virtually the most powerful effect that can come from a Cantrip, besides maybe Shocking Grasps ability to rid them of their reaction.
At this point, you've been given the advantages of Vicious Mockery. You can decide that it's not enough for you, and not use it, that's okay. But I don't think there's anything anyone can say to convince you of its value at this point.
It seems like you're looking for a killer argument that would make the spell amazing, but it's a cantrip. It's a good cantrip, it's a cantrip worth casting, but it's still a cantrip. it does less damage than a crossbow, but has other advantages. It's not supposed to be the center point of your strategy, and it won't turn the tide of a battle, but it does its job, and can be used on turns where you already have a concentration spell going to help allies, even though it's not flashy.
Click to learn to put cool-looking tooltips in your messages!
Perfect combination with Healing Word rounds.
I don’t know too much about stats but but it works really well as just a stress breaker in the actual group. I was playing a bard and the rest of my party was basically all paladins except for two clerics for heals but we were having the fight of our lives and I cast vicious mockery which dealt damage not much but some gave it disadvantage which saved the life of our cleric and was a complete icebreaker I always use “yo mama” jokes for vicious mockery and it kills plus it’s a Cantrip not some god spell that is meant for damage just a funny Cantrip that deals some damage and gives them disadvantage but if you don’t like it that’s fine because you don’t have to use it and don’t have to play a bard but that’s just me
lf you think that this cantrip is bad then You have less sense than the Good Lord gave a common cabbage,you feebleminded cur (roll a wis save) (no offence entended,this was just to show some fun that can be had with this.)
The 2.5 average damage from a 1d4 isn't significantly less than the 7 average damage from a single greatsword attack in the grand scale of things. Sure the greatsword almost does 3x the damage and can be used with extra attack to get more hits in, but it's still only 4.5 more average damage. Sure that adds up over time. But so does the damage mitigated through the disadvantage that is imposed on a failed save. Direct damage leading to death mitigates more damage, but the greatsword strike that fails to kill the creature or cause the creature to run away mitigates less damage than the imposed disadvantage. Both options are better than healing damage from an efficiency standpoint. The extra crispy option is that vicious mockery combos well with a character that can cast Toll the Dead, since the successful 1d4 attack bumps Toll from 1d8 to 1d12. Both spells are targeting the same save which is a save that is frequently useful to target, particularly against high AC types.
Consider the usage against a hobgoblin. 18 AC but +0 to wisdom saves means that the wisdom save is the more efficient attack. Meanwhile, if the hobgoblin has a friend within range to enable martial advantage, it's attack can cause 1d10+1+2d6 damage in a worse case scenario which is 14 average damage. Disadvantage on that attack is a massive help to party survivability, particularly at low level. If you and your cleric friend who is casting toll the dead both target the hobgoblin, you are decreasing the chances of that 14 average damage from going out while increasing the damage of the cleric from 4.5 average damage to 6.5 average damage while also imposing 2.5 average damage (assuming the hobgoblin hadn't been damaged before). That's potentially a swing of +18.5 damage in your favor from a little old cantrip.
I'll grant you that this example is a bit simplistic and doesn't factor in the chances to hit, but I think it shows how powerful a tool vicious mockery can be in the right situation. Of course, there are situations when it won't work as well. Those instances are when you'll need a different tool.
It is a bit discreate. Insulting something wth a good "Your mama" comment or throwing a firebolt at him is likely to get quite different reactions from the city guard.
It is also allways helpful with different damage types if you meet something with damage resistance / immunity.
Bards have two Cantrips that do damage: Vicious Mockery, and Thunderclap.
Thunderclap is limited to melee range, does slightly more damage than Vicious Mockery, but requires a Constitution save. It's also an AoE that doesn't distinguish friendly targets.
If you want to have a damaging Cantrip, then Vicious Mockery is basically it (especially if you're limited to the PHB).
Are there better uses for your action than using a Cantrip? Possibly, but not always.
Would it be better to attack with a ranged weapon? Possibly, but not always.
Would you be better off learning a Cantrip with more non-combat applications? Possibly, but not always.
Like so many other things in the game, it's a choice. Few things in the game are so good that you should always take it without question, and few are so bad that you should never take them.
Disclaimer: I have attempted to run modern homebrew. It never went very far, but I've seen this spell in action a few times.
Vicious Mockery ignores cover, gives disadvantage on one attack roll, only requires verbal components and is a cantrip. It's absolutely broken in FISH&CHIPS (Fighting In Someone's House and Causing Havoc In People's Streets) situations. Which make up the vast majority of modern urban combat.
It's also decent at weakening a target without killing it so your buddy can close in with a TASER more safely.
Oh, and did I mention you can carry it everywhere you want, unlike an AR-15? Hell, even sneaking a .22LR Derringer with Advantage on your Sleight of Hand check can go wrong if there are metal detector checkpoints... This cantrip is pretty much the ultimate in Concealed Carry... You can use it anywhere and never run out of ammo for it.
Vicious Mockery does not ignore cover, not sure where you're getting that from. Sacred Flame is the only damaging cantrip that ignores cover.
Vicious Mockery ignores half cover and three-quarters cover insofar as it's not an attack so it doesn't care about AC.
I'm just gonna echo what everyone else is saying and say that disadvantage on an attack is really powerful when you can do it over and over again from a distance at no cost.
For some reason had it in my head that Vicious Mockery targeted Dex. Cover isn't only for attacks, it also provides a +2 (for half) or +5 (for 3/4's) on Dexterity Saving throws, but yes as Vicious Mockery targets Wisdom it indeed ignores cover. My bad.