You gave some irrelevant definitions, some incorrect assertions, and some opinions. The only facts relevant to this discussion are the fact that the description of a spell describes its effect (which is so basic it is practically tautological - and still fundamental to the issue here: if it isn't in the description, it's not part of the effect) and that the words actually in this spell's description don't describe what you say it does. The second bullet allows you to draw stuff, that's about it. How creative you might be able to be with the first bullet, which is the one that lets you move earth, is between you and your DM.
Well, I wasn't meaning to go for two different threads. It just sort-a- happened.
Fact, the spell is Transmutation Based, which allows the caster to change the properties of a creature, object or environment.
Fact, the spell when is cast, it creates a 5ft cube, meaning 5ft length, 5ft width and 5ft height. The cube is a 3 Dimensional space
Fact, the cube has a transmutation effect within that 3 Dimensional space that effects only Dirt / Stone
Fact, the spell allows the caster to manipulate Dirt / Stone in a 3 Dimensional space to fit their needs.
Now, I am not talking about the First bullet or the Third bullet. I am talking about the second Bullet:
Bullet #2: You cause shapes, colors, or both to appear on the Dirt or Stone, spelling out words, creating images, or shaping patterns. The changes last for 1 hour.
"You cause shapes, colors or both to appear on the Dirt or Stone," This is the First Pause, of the first half of the sentence that the comma is used and not to separate a list of items or conditions.
This is the meaning: You can shape the Dirt / Stone (if you have enough material to work) within the Cube's effect, then that effect appears on the Dirt / Stone.
spelling out words, creating images or shaping patterns. This is the second half of the sentence which expands additional effects, items or conditions.
Of course the last bit is the duration, which is self explaining.
You are wrong. There is no full-stop between the two halves of the sentence, nor is there any words of the form "for example".
Thus, the entirety of the sentence needs to be read as a single entity, with the second half clarifying what can be done in the first half.
You cause shapes, colors, or both to appear on the dirt or stone, spelling out words, creating images, or shaping patterns. The changes last for 1 hour.
BTW, you can quote other people's message by wrapping them with [ quote ] and [ /quote] (without the spaces inside the square brackets), which would make it easier for people to see that you are quoting somebody else instead of just posting very long messages.
Apparently writing the exact same sentence with the exact same words and only changing the sentence structure from cause-causes-effect to effect-caused-by-cause to make the effect clearer is "changing" the effect. I'm done lowering myself to argue with logic of such a level. It is too exhausting to read 650+ word responses about whether pictures on stone can be 3D.
For anyone else that is confused and isn't here to argue: mold earth can not be used to freely reshape stone, that is what stone shape is for. Mold earth can move loose dirt, cast whatever image you want onto dirt or stone, and make ground hard to walk on. Honestly, being able to excavate and move hundreds of pounds of soil into ditches, walls, and/or stairs alone makes it a great spell. But it doesnt turn you into Edward Elric by itself.
Most dirt has a lot of rocks mixed in (in my yard it's like 50% dirt, 50% shovel-thwarting stones), so I'd say you can use mold earth to filter out the stones for your sling.
Mold Earth is generally not powerful enough to reshape stone. The spell reads "you can cause shapes, colors, or both to appear on the dirt or stone...", which states to me that the spell can only really affect surface change. This is somewhat counterbalanced by the "Create difficult terrain" feature of the spell, but a lot of what people tend to do with Mold earth is similar to what people do with Minor Illusion - i.e. wildly out of line with the intended use or level of the spell. Carving handholds in a stone wall, punching windows in a stone bunker, etching permanent messages in stone...basically all well beyond the spell's ability.
Stretching the spell into fabricating temporary sling bullets, especially with the help of a chisel or other stoneworking tool, is inventive enough (and overall harmless enough) that as a DM I'd likely allow it, especially if the character otherwise made extensive use of Mold Earth. It's actually one of my favorite cantrips and near the top of my list of Badass Utility Spell Nobody Likes As Much As They Should, but it's also Mold Earth, not Mold Stone.
Your conclusion to mold Earth is Wrong:
The First thing the spells states: "You choose a portion of Dirt or Stone that you can see within range and that fits within a 5-foot cube. You Manipulate it in one of the following ways:"
Casting the spell gives "The Caster" a 5ft cube which is a Magical effect PHB pg. 204
You can "Manipulate" Dirt / Stone within that Cube's Magical effect.
What is to Manipulate: it is to handle or control of something.
The Spell is Transmutation: "Transmutation spells change the properties of a creature, object or environment." PHB 203
The Magic Transmutes the Dirt / Stone into a Malleable Cohesive Material, the magical material can be given Length, Width and Height within the Cube's effect and is held together by Magic for the duration of the spell.
This is the Mechanic's of the spell.
#2 bullet: "You cause shapes, colors or both to appear on the dirt or stone, spelling out words, creating images or shaping patterns. The changes last for 1 hour." (RAW)
You target Dirt / Stone in a 5ft Cube (3-Dimension Effect) of which you can Manipulate within to cause shapes, colors or both to appear on the Dirt / Stone...etc
It states nothing about the (appearance) "appear on" being only in 2-Dimensional.
Where does it state in the spells description that it is only surface change???
Where in the spell's description it says to change the 5ft cube into a 5ft surface???
Where in the spell's description it says you could only Manipulate a 5ft surface???
How did you come to that conclusion??? I would like to know please?
A Fact by the Spell Description, you can Manipulate the Dirt / Stone in a 5ft cube. The Shape can appear on the Dirt / Stone as a 3-dimensionals with shapes and colors in a image of snarling wolf, shape Hand grips for climbing, shape a stone pebble to be more aerodynamic, shape a anchor point to tie a rope or shape a mustache onto a stone statue in 3-Dimensional for an hour.
So yes, Mold Earth can reshape stone,.... for 1 hour before it reverts back to normal.
Take Flaming sphere for example:
A 5-foot-diameter sphere of fire appears in an unoccupied space of your choice within range and lasts for the duration.
Does it mean a Flaming sphere "appears in" the ground of an unoccupied space?....... because it says appears in?
The spell description is clear about what you can do. - You can dig and remove earth. - You can make shapes or colors appear on the dirt or on the stone. I think this is the effect you intend to abuse. But no, the description is clear: You can make shapes or colors appear. I mean, you can draw. -You can make a terrain difficult, or make a difficult terrain no longer difficult.
The uses that you propose are not contemplated in the cantrip. To do that you need Stone Shape which is a level 4 spell.
[quote]The spell description is clear about what you can do. - You can dig and remove earth. - You can make shapes or colors appear on the dirt or on the stone. I think this is the effect you intend to abuse. But no, the description is clear: You can make shapes or colors appear. I mean, you can draw. -You can make a terrain difficult, or make a difficult terrain no longer difficult.
The uses that you propose are not contemplated in the cantrip. To do that you need Stone Shape which is a level 4 spell.[quote]
No, I wasn't trying to or meaning to abuse the spell.
Example of how I interrupt of reading the spell's 2nd bullet:
You hold in your hands a 1ft x 1ft x1ft Square stone block.
You cast Mold Earth and cause shape to manipulate it into a 1ft x 1ft x1ft Sphere
Mold Earth allows you to Manipulate the volume and weight density, but you can not Exceed or Condense the original. In other words Mold Earth cannot Change weight or size category of your target; example: from large to tiny or tiny to small.
Now Shape Stone can re-form or re-shape, because Shape Stone is more akin to Polymorph. You can take that same 1ft x 1ft x1ft stone material and make it into a 5ft stone idol, a Stone Weapon or shield.
Shape Stone can change size category / Mold Earth cannot, nor was I suggesting that.
Shape Stone can add or minus the weight to the new form or shape / Mold Earth cannot - Though it can displace the weight through manipulation if you wanted to play with weighted stone dice to cheat.
That is what I followed in the spell's description.
The part about spelling out words, create images or shaping patterns is additional flavor that you can do onto the shape that you intend to create.
You cause shapes, colors, or both to appear on the dirt or stone, spelling out words, creating images, or shaping patterns. The changes last for 1 hour.
You can manipulate the stone to give convex shapes on all 6 sides of the square to appear on the surface of the stone to form a sphere for 1 hour.
You have the option of using or not using Spelling out words, create images or shaping patterns.
Though having a bowling ball with a skull image would be cool.
Yeah... that's not what it says. If it meant "you can change the shape as long as it stays the same size/density/whatever," it would have said exactly that (with a more official-sounding wording, of course).
You cause shapes, colors, or both to appear on the dirt or stone, spelling out words, creating images, or shaping patterns. The changes last for 1 hour.
The "spelling out words, creating images, or shaping patterns" part is purely 2-dimensional. Those are the things you can do, and none of them are 3D. It lets you write or draw stuff. That's it.
Also, notice how it says "appear on the dirt or stone." If it was supposed to let you re-shape the block, it wouldn't have said that you can make drawings or words appear on top of the dirt or stone. Drawings and words are both very 2D.
Sorry, it just doesn't work the way you want it to.
(Also, ignoring both proof and design intent makes for (1) an argument that's flimsy at best and (2) a very unenjoyable discussion.)
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Paladin main who spends most of his D&D time worldbuilding or DMing, not Paladin-ing.
I'm surprised the mention of the wording "You cause shapes, colors, or both to appear on the dirt or stone," has only been mentioned once. The operative word there, really, is ON. Not with, or from, but ON.
Funny read through though. Makes me understand why some DM's end up so cranky, knowing folks will vehemently try to defend their idea (which many times are very innovative ideas, if illegal, RaW) when everything written says "nope"
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Talk to your Players.Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
I'm surprised the mention of the wording "You cause shapes, colors, or both to appear on the dirt or stone," has only been mentioned once. The operative word there, really, is ON. Not with, or from, but ON.
Since the reference to "on" was ignored by ArcticFang, nobody thought it was worth bringing it up again :)
I'm surprised the mention of the wording "You cause shapes, colors, or both to appear on the dirt or stone," has only been mentioned once. The operative word there, really, is ON. Not with, or from, but ON.
Funny read through though. Makes me understand why some DM's end up so cranky, knowing folks will vehemently try to defend their idea (which many times are very innovative ideas, if illegal, RaW) when everything written says "nope"
You're misreading the spell. In no case does it tell you that you can change the shape of the target (earth or stone), what it says is that you can make shapes appear. That's all. You could, for example, make a spiral appear on a stone wall. But you couldn't take a stone and create a dagger (for example) with it. Why can't you do that? Because the spell doesn't tell you that you can.
Reading the whole thread I imagine you think that everyone is wrong except you. But, come on, there are many of us who are telling you how the spell works. Do you think it is logical that we are all wrong except you? Don't you think that the most logical thing is that one person is reading it wrong than dozens? However, there is no need to continue this discussion much further. The spell works as several people have already told you. Do you want to apply it as if it were Stone Shape? Go ahead, do what you want. But what you want to see is not written there. Even if you deconstruct it and give it the spin you want.
Not meaning to be a pest and also trying not to spin it either.
When I read the spell's description that gives the caster to place a 5ft Cube and creates a Magical Effect and that you can Manipulate it within that 3 Dimensional environment.
Mudbox is what comes into mind.
You cause shapes, colors, or both to appear on the dirt or stone, spelling out words, creating images, or shaping patterns. The changes last for 1 hour.
cause (something) to happen; bring about
Example of how I interrupt of reading the spell's 2nd bullet:
You hold in your hands a 1ft x 1ft x1ft Square stone block. Then you cast Mold Earth and manipulate the stone to cause shape into a 1ft x 1ft x 1ft Sphere
This is how I read it and this is how I understand it, what I don't understand is how it only means surface? When it states in the spell's description you are allowed to manipulate it in 3 dimensions (x,y,z axis) in a Cube's 3 dimensional Effect?
Now "if" the second bullet stated this:
You display shapes, colors, or both to appear on the dirt or stone, spelling out word, creating images, or shaping patterns. The changes last for 1 hour.
Like a billboard or sign of some kind, there would be no question or confusion about what it can and cannot do.
Again not meaning to be a pest and also trying not to spin it either. How about this example:
In the 5ft cube that you can manipulate, you "shape" a cylinder to be excavate out of the ground
The spell effects in the ground holds it's "shape" for an hour
So that the villagers can mix pour concrete and place a support wall post into the ground.
Nothing what I describe goes beyond the spell's description, "You cause shape"
You display shapes, colors, or both to appear on the dirt or stone, spelling out word, creating images, or shaping patterns. The changes last for 1 hour.
Like a billboard or sign of some kind, there would be no question or confusion about what it can and cannot do.
Unfortunately changing the word from "cause" to "display" can cause confusion - when doing "display" does the caster have to place objects onto the surface in order for the display to be achieved?
Not meaning to be a pest and also trying not to spin it either.
When I read the spell's description that gives the caster to place a 5ft Cube and creates a Magical Effect and that you can Manipulate it within that 3 Dimensional environment.
Mudbox is what comes into mind.
You cause shapes, colors, or both to appear on the dirt or stone, spelling out words, creating images, or shaping patterns. The changes last for 1 hour.
cause (something) to happen; bring about
Example of how I interrupt of reading the spell's 2nd bullet:
You hold in your hands a 1ft x 1ft x1ft Square stone block. Then you cast Mold Earth and manipulate the stone to cause shape into a 1ft x 1ft x 1ft Sphere
The spell doesn't let you do whatever you want within a 5' cube, it merely doesn't let you do anything to a cube larger than 5'. The 5' cube is basically the area of effect, but it doesn't let you make 3D sculptures.
This is how I read it and this is how I understand it, what I don't understand is how it only means surface? When it states in the spell's description you are allowed to manipulate it in 3 dimensions (x,y,z axis) in a Cube's 3 dimensional Effect?
Where in the spell does it say that? I'd love for you to show me where in the spell - in context - it says you can manipulate it in 3D.
Nothing what I describe goes beyond the spell's description, "You cause shape"
"You cause shapes... to appear on...." You can't take things like that out of context.
In addition, "shapes" is listed right alongside words and images. Why would they stick one 3D thing in the same list as two 2D things? It just doesn't make sense.
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Paladin main who spends most of his D&D time worldbuilding or DMing, not Paladin-ing.
Yet another clarification: You don't actually target a 5' cube. "You choose a portion of dirt or stone that you can see within range and that fits within a 5-foot cube." Your target is the dirt or stone, not the cube itself. That is such a minor nitpick that I don't really know if it is material to the problems in this thread. But it is certainly something that apparently needs clarified, as one user continually refers to making things happen in the targeted area which doesn't exist, since you don't target an area.
You hold in your hands a 1ft x 1ft x1ft Square stone block. Then you cast Mold Earth and manipulate the stone to cause shape into a 1ft x 1ft x 1ft Sphere
This is how I read it and this is how I understand it, what I don't understand is how it only means surface? When it states in the spell's description you are allowed to manipulate it in 3 dimensions (x,y,z axis) in a Cube's 3 dimensional Effect?
Someone else has already explained it to you above. But just in case you haven't read it, the key is in what I mark in bold: "You cause shapes, colors, or both to appear on the dirt or stone"
Think about it this way: Is it the same to make a square on a sheet of paper as to make a square with a sheet of paper? Is it the same to make a circle in the sand as to make a circle of sand?
Since I just re-read it. It says you can move/excavate loose earth, it doesn't actually say you can shape it. But what is loose earth? obviously dirt is, but what if it is mud? does it count?
Since I just re-read it. It says you can move/excavate loose earth, it doesn't actually say you can shape it. But what is loose earth? obviously dirt is, but what if it is mud? does it count?
I'd say, something that could be moved with a shovel.
If the mud is thick enough that you could shovel it, then fine. If it's so liquid that it would run off a shovel, then the cantrip can't deal with it either.
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You gave some irrelevant definitions, some incorrect assertions, and some opinions. The only facts relevant to this discussion are the fact that the description of a spell describes its effect (which is so basic it is practically tautological - and still fundamental to the issue here: if it isn't in the description, it's not part of the effect) and that the words actually in this spell's description don't describe what you say it does. The second bullet allows you to draw stuff, that's about it. How creative you might be able to be with the first bullet, which is the one that lets you move earth, is between you and your DM.
Well, I wasn't meaning to go for two different threads. It just sort-a- happened.
Now, I am not talking about the First bullet or the Third bullet. I am talking about the second Bullet:
Bullet #2: You cause shapes, colors, or both to appear on the Dirt or Stone, spelling out words, creating images, or shaping patterns. The changes last for 1 hour.
You are wrong. There is no full-stop between the two halves of the sentence, nor is there any words of the form "for example".
Thus, the entirety of the sentence needs to be read as a single entity, with the second half clarifying what can be done in the first half.
BTW, you can quote other people's message by wrapping them with [ quote ] and [ /quote] (without the spaces inside the square brackets), which would make it easier for people to see that you are quoting somebody else instead of just posting very long messages.
Apparently writing the exact same sentence with the exact same words and only changing the sentence structure from cause-causes-effect to effect-caused-by-cause to make the effect clearer is "changing" the effect. I'm done lowering myself to argue with logic of such a level. It is too exhausting to read 650+ word responses about whether pictures on stone can be 3D.
For anyone else that is confused and isn't here to argue: mold earth can not be used to freely reshape stone, that is what stone shape is for. Mold earth can move loose dirt, cast whatever image you want onto dirt or stone, and make ground hard to walk on. Honestly, being able to excavate and move hundreds of pounds of soil into ditches, walls, and/or stairs alone makes it a great spell. But it doesnt turn you into Edward Elric by itself.
Most dirt has a lot of rocks mixed in (in my yard it's like 50% dirt, 50% shovel-thwarting stones), so I'd say you can use mold earth to filter out the stones for your sling.
The spell description is clear about what you can do.
- You can dig and remove earth.
- You can make shapes or colors appear on the dirt or on the stone. I think this is the effect you intend to abuse. But no, the description is clear: You can make shapes or colors appear. I mean, you can draw.
-You can make a terrain difficult, or make a difficult terrain no longer difficult.
The uses that you propose are not contemplated in the cantrip. To do that you need Stone Shape which is a level 4 spell.
[quote]The spell description is clear about what you can do.
- You can dig and remove earth.
- You can make shapes or colors appear on the dirt or on the stone. I think this is the effect you intend to abuse. But no, the description is clear: You can make shapes or colors appear. I mean, you can draw.
-You can make a terrain difficult, or make a difficult terrain no longer difficult.
The uses that you propose are not contemplated in the cantrip. To do that you need Stone Shape which is a level 4 spell.[quote]
No, I wasn't trying to or meaning to abuse the spell.
Example of how I interrupt of reading the spell's 2nd bullet:
Mold Earth allows you to Manipulate the volume and weight density, but you can not Exceed or Condense the original. In other words Mold Earth cannot Change weight or size category of your target; example: from large to tiny or tiny to small.
That is what I followed in the spell's description.
The part about spelling out words, create images or shaping patterns is additional flavor that you can do onto the shape that you intend to create.
It isn't flavor, since it is part of the same sentence.
If you held a stone block in your hand, you make any of those things appear on the surface - you couldn't use this cantrip to shape it into a sphere.
You cause shapes, colors, or both to appear on the dirt or stone, spelling out words, creating images, or shaping patterns. The changes last for 1 hour.
You can manipulate the stone to give convex shapes on all 6 sides of the square to appear on the surface of the stone to form a sphere for 1 hour.
You have the option of using or not using Spelling out words, create images or shaping patterns.
Though having a bowling ball with a skull image would be cool.
Yeah... that's not what it says. If it meant "you can change the shape as long as it stays the same size/density/whatever," it would have said exactly that (with a more official-sounding wording, of course).
The "spelling out words, creating images, or shaping patterns" part is purely 2-dimensional. Those are the things you can do, and none of them are 3D. It lets you write or draw stuff. That's it.
Also, notice how it says "appear on the dirt or stone." If it was supposed to let you re-shape the block, it wouldn't have said that you can make drawings or words appear on top of the dirt or stone. Drawings and words are both very 2D.
Sorry, it just doesn't work the way you want it to.
(Also, ignoring both proof and design intent makes for (1) an argument that's flimsy at best and (2) a very unenjoyable discussion.)
Paladin main who spends most of his D&D time worldbuilding or DMing, not Paladin-ing.
I'm surprised the mention of the wording "You cause shapes, colors, or both to appear on the dirt or stone," has only been mentioned once. The operative word there, really, is ON. Not with, or from, but ON.
Funny read through though. Makes me understand why some DM's end up so cranky, knowing folks will vehemently try to defend their idea (which many times are very innovative ideas, if illegal, RaW) when everything written says "nope"
Talk to your Players. Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
Since the reference to "on" was ignored by ArcticFang, nobody thought it was worth bringing it up again :)
You're misreading the spell. In no case does it tell you that you can change the shape of the target (earth or stone), what it says is that you can make shapes appear. That's all. You could, for example, make a spiral appear on a stone wall. But you couldn't take a stone and create a dagger (for example) with it.
Why can't you do that? Because the spell doesn't tell you that you can.
Reading the whole thread I imagine you think that everyone is wrong except you. But, come on, there are many of us who are telling you how the spell works. Do you think it is logical that we are all wrong except you? Don't you think that the most logical thing is that one person is reading it wrong than dozens?
However, there is no need to continue this discussion much further. The spell works as several people have already told you. Do you want to apply it as if it were Stone Shape? Go ahead, do what you want. But what you want to see is not written there. Even if you deconstruct it and give it the spin you want.
Not meaning to be a pest and also trying not to spin it either.
When I read the spell's description that gives the caster to place a 5ft Cube and creates a Magical Effect and that you can Manipulate it within that 3 Dimensional environment.
Mudbox is what comes into mind.
Example of how I interrupt of reading the spell's 2nd bullet:
This is how I read it and this is how I understand it, what I don't understand is how it only means surface? When it states in the spell's description you are allowed to manipulate it in 3 dimensions (x,y,z axis) in a Cube's 3 dimensional Effect?
Now "if" the second bullet stated this:
Like a billboard or sign of some kind, there would be no question or confusion about what it can and cannot do.
Again not meaning to be a pest and also trying not to spin it either. How about this example:
Nothing what I describe goes beyond the spell's description, "You cause shape"
Unfortunately changing the word from "cause" to "display" can cause confusion - when doing "display" does the caster have to place objects onto the surface in order for the display to be achieved?
"cause" is a far better verb to use in this case.
The spell doesn't let you do whatever you want within a 5' cube, it merely doesn't let you do anything to a cube larger than 5'. The 5' cube is basically the area of effect, but it doesn't let you make 3D sculptures.
Where in the spell does it say that? I'd love for you to show me where in the spell - in context - it says you can manipulate it in 3D.
"You cause shapes... to appear on...." You can't take things like that out of context.
In addition, "shapes" is listed right alongside words and images. Why would they stick one 3D thing in the same list as two 2D things? It just doesn't make sense.
Paladin main who spends most of his D&D time worldbuilding or DMing, not Paladin-ing.
Yet another clarification: You don't actually target a 5' cube. "You choose a portion of dirt or stone that you can see within range and that fits within a 5-foot cube." Your target is the dirt or stone, not the cube itself. That is such a minor nitpick that I don't really know if it is material to the problems in this thread. But it is certainly something that apparently needs clarified, as one user continually refers to making things happen in the targeted area which doesn't exist, since you don't target an area.
Someone else has already explained it to you above. But just in case you haven't read it, the key is in what I mark in bold:
"You cause shapes, colors, or both to appear on the dirt or stone"
Think about it this way: Is it the same to make a square on a sheet of paper as to make a square with a sheet of paper? Is it the same to make a circle in the sand as to make a circle of sand?
Since I just re-read it. It says you can move/excavate loose earth, it doesn't actually say you can shape it. But what is loose earth? obviously dirt is, but what if it is mud? does it count?
I'd say, something that could be moved with a shovel.
If the mud is thick enough that you could shovel it, then fine. If it's so liquid that it would run off a shovel, then the cantrip can't deal with it either.