I am about to go up to level 4 and I have some questions with my Variant Human Vengeance Paladin that I would like to hear some opinions. The party consists of Bard (buff / debuff), Ranger / Druid multiclass, Wizard / Rogue multiclass, Wild Sorcerer. All ranged party
I am comparing the following 2 options for my paladin and I'm having a hard time to understand which will be the best option for this party composition, because at this point our DM is giving us the opportunity to make some adjustments to our builds
This option looks good to position in front of the group and attack enemies before they approach. With Resilient it would help a lot to maintain concentration with Haste at level 9
Option 2.Feats: Heavy Armor Master > Great Weapon Master > Resilient (CON)
This Heavy Armor Master feat is the one that I have been using and it has helped me a lot to take more hits and be in front, in fact against low level enemies it is too overpowered. Here is the current build Gudbrand
What do you guys think, any advice it will be very helpful
Have you considered Sentinel? It might fit really well with the rest of the party since it will help you keep opponents from moving past you into melee with them.
In paper Sentinel looks amazing and I had read a lot about it but had some problems because in a normal battle we are against 3 to 4 enemies i can only lock down 1 enemy and the others pass by or around me because I only have 1 reaction.
As a Vengeance Paladin i don't know which one is better PAM>GWM>Sentinel or PAM>Sentinel>GWM or PAM>GWM>Resilient (To use concentration spells more often like Hunters Mark, Haste, etc.)
You don't have a ton of need for Resilient as a Paladin, so the strong option is definitely one of the ones that doesn't include that. By the time you're looking at your second ASI, you already have your aura for an extra boost to your con saves, and you don't have an odd con to get value from the +1 either.
Personally I'd value getting Sentinel sooner. Not only does polearm master synergize very nicely with Sentinel, Great Weapon Master is less needed on a character who has strong non-weapon sources of attack damage; between Hunter's Mark and Smites, you don't need the extra ten damage particularly badly at this stage.
Heavy Armor Mastery is reported as being awesome early and losing its luster as time goes on. Switching to PAM/Sentinel would allow you to stop someone cold in their tracks before they got to you, preventing them from attacking at all if they don't have a ranged option. However, you'd lose 1 strength which would cause your strength modifier to drop as well. Getting your strength to 18 would be nice to help your attacks to hit.
As for only having one reaction to prevent one enemy from reaching your back lines, that's one fewer than would reach them if you don't kill them otherwise. Between the bonus action attack and the increase in opportunity attacks from PAM (and the occasional one from sentinel as you help clean up the runners that get past you), you'll have plenty of chances to hit which means plenty of opportunities crit and Smite. If you do have Hunter's Mark and/or Haste up, you'll be getting extra damage on all of those attacks and/or getting an additional one (or dashing to reposition).
I like Option 2 more since you're not planning to up your ASI's in the first 8 levels. Polearm master/Sentinel always felt like Fighter territory to me, since they have so many ASI bumps and feat slots to get that combo rolling flawlessly with Great Weapon master and STR ups.
That said I'm also biased to thinking that ASI's are more valuable to paladins than feats, but that's only because I feel that their kit of bonus action spells with the charisma aura require investment to scale properly with the enemy since by level 9-11+ the average AC and spellcasting DC of the enemy is expected to increase quite a bit.
However, that being said, I know with great confidence you could play any character you want and still win with tactics or luck on your side, so my real advice is just play what you think is cool. But I would vote option 2
So it's better to go PAM-Sentinel-GWM or PAM-GWM-Sentinel??
My concern is the loss of damage when doing Vow of Enmity from levels 4 to 8
Remember that of you've been playing with HAM and your DM lets you swap it out, your strength will drop to 15 putting your strength mod at +2 instead of +3. This means that you'll be 5% less likely to hit than before and your proficiency bonus doesn't kick in until level 5. Getting a +1 strength at least will counter act that (your other +1 can go con or charisma if you don't feel like dropping all of it in strength). Based on what you've said you want to do, that would mean swapping HAM for PAM for your human variant feat, deciding whether you want the ASI for at least +1 strength (if your constitution or charisma scores are odd, likely a 13, the other +1 would naturally want to go there) in place of sentinel for your level 4 ASI. I would then go with whichever you didn't choose at level 4 for your level 8 ASI. Assuming that you get to level 12, that's where I would start to consider GWM but I'd think hard about increasing Con or Str instead. The +10 to damage is only useful if you hit and the -5 to hit puts you behind the curve on that. A +2 or +3 may not give you enough boost to make it worth it. +4 or +5 gives you more likelihood to hit plus the extra damage and is really what the damage bullet of GWM is looking for. While the bonus action provided by GWM will give you better damage than that provided by PAM, PAM's is more consistent. GWM is a touch more superfluous for your build purposes until you can get your stats up. The exception that I would make for that is if you want to postpone/forego grabbing sentinel and focus more on beating down opponents as your "tanking" method.
So, long story short but my DM gave me the opportunity to modify my character to make some adjustments even in stats
With that said, I'm the only melee on a group for Hoard of the Dragon Queen and Rise of Tiamat and we expect to reach level 15, the rest of the party consist of Bard (buff / debuff), Ranger / Druid multi-class, Wizard / Rogue multi-class, Wild Sorcerer.
Its my first time as a Variant Human Vengeance Paladin and love to hear some insights on which feats are better for this party composition
Option 1 - Lvl 1 - Heavy Armor Master | Lvl 4 - Great Weapon Master | Lvl 8 - Str +2 | Lvl 12 - Str +2 (This option feels like more "tanky" and balanced, the problem is that is hard to control the enemies)
Option 2 - Lvl 1 - Polearm Master | Lvl 4 - Great Weapon Master | Lvl 8 - Sentinel | Lvl 12 - Str +2 (I don't know if first to take GWM or Sentinel)
Option 3 - Lvl 1 - Polearm Master | Lvl 4 - Sentinel | Lvl 8 - Str +2 | Lvl 12 - Str +2 (This one is just to remove GWM and focus on control of the battlefield)
Or what other option do you think is better? I'm having a hard time deciding which one to choose from
So, long story short but my DM gave me the opportunity to modify my character to make some adjustments even in stats
With that said, I'm the only melee on a group for Hoard of the Dragon Queen and Rise of Tiamat and we expect to reach level 15, the rest of the party consist of Bard (buff / debuff), Ranger / Druid multi-class, Wizard / Rogue multi-class, Wild Sorcerer.
Its my first time as a Variant Human Vengeance Paladin and love to hear some insights on which feats are better for this party composition
Option 1 - Lvl 1 - Heavy Armor Master | Lvl 4 - Great Weapon Master | Lvl 8 - Str +2 | Lvl 12 - Str +2 (This option feels like more "tanky" and balanced, the problem is that is hard to control the enemies)
Option 2 - Lvl 1 - Polearm Master | Lvl 4 - Great Weapon Master | Lvl 8 - Sentinel | Lvl 12 - Str +2 (I don't know if first to take GWM or Sentinel)
Option 3 - Lvl 1 - Polearm Master | Lvl 4 - Sentinel | Lvl 8 - Str +2 | Lvl 12 - Str +2 (This one is just to remove GWM and focus on control of the battlefield)
Or what other option do you think is better? I'm having a hard time deciding which one to choose from
I'd probably lean away from HAM from what I've heard about it from others. If you want something to slot into that slot for added tankiness, consider Inspiring Leader (or see if the bard or sorcerer will grab it). Getting an additional 6-17 Temp HP per short rest for up to 6 players with your +2 charisma modifier would let you lean into the damager a little more and allow the party to focus down the immediate threats. The control aspect is a little less important with the buffer, but stacks nicely with inspiring Leader if the bard or sorcerer grabs it.
Overall, you've got three different but viable options, plus the alternate I described and any others that may have been (or will be) offered. I'd select the one that feels right to you and enjoy.
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Hi there
I am about to go up to level 4 and I have some questions with my Variant Human Vengeance Paladin that I would like to hear some opinions. The party consists of Bard (buff / debuff), Ranger / Druid multiclass, Wizard / Rogue multiclass, Wild Sorcerer. All ranged party
I am comparing the following 2 options for my paladin and I'm having a hard time to understand which will be the best option for this party composition, because at this point our DM is giving us the opportunity to make some adjustments to our builds
Option 1. Feats: Polearm Master > Great Weapon Master > Resilient (CON)
This option looks good to position in front of the group and attack enemies before they approach. With Resilient it would help a lot to maintain concentration with Haste at level 9
Option 2. Feats: Heavy Armor Master > Great Weapon Master > Resilient (CON)
This Heavy Armor Master feat is the one that I have been using and it has helped me a lot to take more hits and be in front, in fact against low level enemies it is too overpowered. Here is the current build Gudbrand
What do you guys think, any advice it will be very helpful
Thanks in advance
Have you considered Sentinel? It might fit really well with the rest of the party since it will help you keep opponents from moving past you into melee with them.
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In paper Sentinel looks amazing and I had read a lot about it but had some problems because in a normal battle we are against 3 to 4 enemies i can only lock down 1 enemy and the others pass by or around me because I only have 1 reaction.
As a Vengeance Paladin i don't know which one is better PAM>GWM>Sentinel or PAM>Sentinel>GWM or PAM>GWM>Resilient (To use concentration spells more often like Hunters Mark, Haste, etc.)
You don't have a ton of need for Resilient as a Paladin, so the strong option is definitely one of the ones that doesn't include that. By the time you're looking at your second ASI, you already have your aura for an extra boost to your con saves, and you don't have an odd con to get value from the +1 either.
Personally I'd value getting Sentinel sooner. Not only does polearm master synergize very nicely with Sentinel, Great Weapon Master is less needed on a character who has strong non-weapon sources of attack damage; between Hunter's Mark and Smites, you don't need the extra ten damage particularly badly at this stage.
Heavy Armor Mastery is reported as being awesome early and losing its luster as time goes on. Switching to PAM/Sentinel would allow you to stop someone cold in their tracks before they got to you, preventing them from attacking at all if they don't have a ranged option. However, you'd lose 1 strength which would cause your strength modifier to drop as well. Getting your strength to 18 would be nice to help your attacks to hit.
As for only having one reaction to prevent one enemy from reaching your back lines, that's one fewer than would reach them if you don't kill them otherwise. Between the bonus action attack and the increase in opportunity attacks from PAM (and the occasional one from sentinel as you help clean up the runners that get past you), you'll have plenty of chances to hit which means plenty of opportunities crit and Smite. If you do have Hunter's Mark and/or Haste up, you'll be getting extra damage on all of those attacks and/or getting an additional one (or dashing to reposition).
I like Option 2 more since you're not planning to up your ASI's in the first 8 levels. Polearm master/Sentinel always felt like Fighter territory to me, since they have so many ASI bumps and feat slots to get that combo rolling flawlessly with Great Weapon master and STR ups.
That said I'm also biased to thinking that ASI's are more valuable to paladins than feats, but that's only because I feel that their kit of bonus action spells with the charisma aura require investment to scale properly with the enemy since by level 9-11+ the average AC and spellcasting DC of the enemy is expected to increase quite a bit.
However, that being said, I know with great confidence you could play any character you want and still win with tactics or luck on your side, so my real advice is just play what you think is cool. But I would vote option 2
Heavy Armor Master isn't very good once you get to tier 2 (level 5).
Polearm Master + Sentinel is a very powerful combo, I recommend choosing that.
That seems like a very good approach
So it's better to go PAM-Sentinel-GWM or PAM-GWM-Sentinel??
My concern is the loss of damage when doing Vow of Enmity from levels 4 to 8
Remember that of you've been playing with HAM and your DM lets you swap it out, your strength will drop to 15 putting your strength mod at +2 instead of +3. This means that you'll be 5% less likely to hit than before and your proficiency bonus doesn't kick in until level 5. Getting a +1 strength at least will counter act that (your other +1 can go con or charisma if you don't feel like dropping all of it in strength). Based on what you've said you want to do, that would mean swapping HAM for PAM for your human variant feat, deciding whether you want the ASI for at least +1 strength (if your constitution or charisma scores are odd, likely a 13, the other +1 would naturally want to go there) in place of sentinel for your level 4 ASI. I would then go with whichever you didn't choose at level 4 for your level 8 ASI. Assuming that you get to level 12, that's where I would start to consider GWM but I'd think hard about increasing Con or Str instead. The +10 to damage is only useful if you hit and the -5 to hit puts you behind the curve on that. A +2 or +3 may not give you enough boost to make it worth it. +4 or +5 gives you more likelihood to hit plus the extra damage and is really what the damage bullet of GWM is looking for. While the bonus action provided by GWM will give you better damage than that provided by PAM, PAM's is more consistent. GWM is a touch more superfluous for your build purposes until you can get your stats up. The exception that I would make for that is if you want to postpone/forego grabbing sentinel and focus more on beating down opponents as your "tanking" method.
So, long story short but my DM gave me the opportunity to modify my character to make some adjustments even in stats
With that said, I'm the only melee on a group for Hoard of the Dragon Queen and Rise of Tiamat and we expect to reach level 15, the rest of the party consist of Bard (buff / debuff), Ranger / Druid multi-class, Wizard / Rogue multi-class, Wild Sorcerer.
Its my first time as a Variant Human Vengeance Paladin and love to hear some insights on which feats are better for this party composition
Option 1 - Lvl 1 - Heavy Armor Master | Lvl 4 - Great Weapon Master | Lvl 8 - Str +2 | Lvl 12 - Str +2 (This option feels like more "tanky" and balanced, the problem is that is hard to control the enemies)
Option 2 - Lvl 1 - Polearm Master | Lvl 4 - Great Weapon Master | Lvl 8 - Sentinel | Lvl 12 - Str +2 (I don't know if first to take GWM or Sentinel)
Option 3 - Lvl 1 - Polearm Master | Lvl 4 - Sentinel | Lvl 8 - Str +2 | Lvl 12 - Str +2 (This one is just to remove GWM and focus on control of the battlefield)
Or what other option do you think is better? I'm having a hard time deciding which one to choose from
I'd probably lean away from HAM from what I've heard about it from others. If you want something to slot into that slot for added tankiness, consider Inspiring Leader (or see if the bard or sorcerer will grab it). Getting an additional 6-17 Temp HP per short rest for up to 6 players with your +2 charisma modifier would let you lean into the damager a little more and allow the party to focus down the immediate threats. The control aspect is a little less important with the buffer, but stacks nicely with inspiring Leader if the bard or sorcerer grabs it.
Overall, you've got three different but viable options, plus the alternate I described and any others that may have been (or will be) offered. I'd select the one that feels right to you and enjoy.