Pantagruel666... you state that it is irrelevant, the first magic jar spell ends and I go back into my original body (possibly killing me) and then, if I survive, cast the second magic jar
why would the 1st magic jar end if I have not yet cast the second...
Because two copies of the spell cannot exist simultaneously. To prevent that situation, the first spell must end before the second spell starts.
No, the rule is that both spells exist but only one can take effect (whichever is strongest, or as of the errata from a year or two, whichever is most recent if they're equal.) E.g. If someone casts Shield of Faith on you twice, you still have two copies of Shield of Faith active but you're not getting twice the AC. When one of them expires you're still going to have the other copy of the spell active on you.
That's why I think the this would work. When you cast the second Magic Jar, the first one stops working, so will not affect you in any way, your soul will not be forced back into your body. It will stop affecting the humanoid soul aswell, so it will try to return to the it's body. But, if the body is more than 100 ft away, it will die.
Now:
a) you are in the second container because of the second Magic Jar;
b) the (original) body you cast the first Magic Jar is empty;
c) the first container is empty;
d) the body you cast the second Magic Jar (humanoid body) is empty;
e) First Magic Jar is active, but produces no effects;
f) Second Magic Jar is active and producing it's effects.
All you have to do is:
1 - Destroy the first container, ending the first Magic Jar;
2 - Return to the humanoid body, ending the second Magic Jar.
Now:
a) You are in the humanoid body without any Magic Jar active;
b) Your original body is empty. Maybe you want to keep it.
Also, if the 2 magic jar spells are targeting 2 different containers, does that mean they aren't stacking anyway?
Magic jar doesn't target a container. It targets the caster. In any case, there's enough here that's unclear that it will boil down to asking your DM whether it will work (or just trying it and finding out). I predict the DM saying it doesn't work.
Pantagruel666... you are right it doesn't target the container, the container is the material component, and each one can only be used once as it is destroyed when the spell ends.
nightspirit2099... there are a few discrepancies in your post, 1st. the first container will not simply stop working it will be destroyed, the last sentence of spell says so, and 2nd. if the container is destroyed the spell ends and you are immediately returned to your body, again as the spell says in the bottom part about 7 to 8 lines from the end
so you need to adjust what happens in each of your steps for post #29... keep in mind if you return to your body the spell ends and the container is destroyed... if the container is destroyed the spell ends and you return to your body if it is within range... the duration is until dispelled, which would destroy the container and return you to your body if within range.
what makes the spell confusing is all the ways you can end the spell and destroy the container, and what would happen to your soul or body and the target soul and body, all depending on whether or not they are within range of the container or their bodies
there are 2 things that I now realize will cause a bit of a problem or delay in accomplishing this procedure...
1. when the first container is destroyed the spell states you immediately return to your body if it is within range... some DM's might rule this occurs before you go into the second container from the second casting of the spell
2. you have to be 19th level to be able to cast two 6th level spells... unless you have a scroll or wish or some other method???
Answering:
1 - The container is destroyed only if the spell ends, which is not the case when you cast it the second time. The first one will just not produce any of its effect on you.
2 - You can cast the Spell, take a long rest, then cast it again.
Ultimately it boils down to how the targeting of "Self" recognizes your soul in your own body from your soul in someone else's body. If those 2 states are determined to be discrete, then you can absolutely cast the spell twice, once from each body, and have both active independently. If they are not discrete states, and are recognized as the same thing, then this is all out the window as the first spell ending will force you to re-enter your own body or you die.
I'm a little confused, doesn't casting the second Magic Jar end the first spell... and if the first spell ends then the container is destroyed (the first container)?
No, casting it again suppresses the effects of the earlier casting. The spell doesn't end.
Ultimately it boils down to how the targeting of "Self" recognizes your soul in your own body from your soul in someone else's body. If those 2 states are determined to be discrete, then you can absolutely cast the spell twice, once from each body, and have both active independently. If they are not discrete states, and are recognized as the same thing, then this is all out the window as the first spell ending will force you to re-enter your own body or you die.
Traditionally the spell could be dispelled by targeting either the container or the new body. To me it makes perfect sense the spell effect travels with your soul since the spell is what's allowing your soul to travel and it consistently uses "you" to refer to your soul and consciousness. Monsters capable of possession (e.g. ghost, intellect devourer) are written similarly.
InquisitiveCoder, you're right, it doesn't end... not sure why I started thinking it did, probably due to be excited by this whole premise and getting ahead of myself. But which spell effect gets suppressed? Neither gives you a distinct advantage over the other and their duration is the same.
Maybe you can switch between while they are both active depending on which one you want to use at any given time... I mean if one container is out of range, why not use the one that is in range?
They are equally powerful, so the most recent one produces effects.
1. So if you cast the 1st magic jar spell and go into the container and from there into the hobgoblin, his soul is in the 1st container.
2. Then either pick up your original body and move away from the container or have a friend move the container out of range.
3. Once you are out of range of the 1st container (and you have long rested to get the 6th level spell slot back), then cast the 2nd magic jar, your soul leaves the hobgoblin body and goes into the 2nd container while the hobgoblin body goes into a catatonic state (it is considered the original body for the 2nd casting of magic jar).
4. Have a friend destroy the 1st container and your soul immediately returns to your original body, jumping from the 2nd container to your original body. The hobgoblin soul will die as it is out of range of it's body and can't return. (The 1st container is out of range, remember.)
5. The 2nd casting is still active and allows you to return to the 2nd container and from there to your original body for this casting, the hobgoblin body (this will end the 2nd casting and destroy the 2nd container.) Now you are in your new hobgoblin body.
This streamlined version seems to work. Or am I missing something?
I don’t think the first casting has any effect on you when the first container is destroyed, but that doesn’t change the final result.
True... I had forgotten that the first spell is suppressed so it wouldn't snap you back into your original body.
Something else I was thinking about with this spell... after you do this, say you (hobgoblin) dies and your allies decide to cast Raise Dead... does your soul come back into the hobgoblin's body, or does the hobgoblin's soul come back?
Good question, I think the Hobgoblin soul would come back, because that’s the only body it ever had. I think this use of Magic Jar, although possible RAW, subverts the “natural order” of dnd, creating metaphysical problems.
True... I had forgotten that the first spell is suppressed so it wouldn't snap you back into your original body.
Something else I was thinking about with this spell... after you do this, say you (hobgoblin) dies and your allies decide to cast Raise Dead... does your soul come back into the hobgoblin's body, or does the hobgoblin's soul come back?
The body's owner comes back. Your entire logic only works if the caster is considered the body's owner (otherwise, 'your body' is the caster's original body, irrespective of the body he's in at the time of casting), so if this works at all, the caster's soul comes back.
True again... once the body and soul are joined permanently, if you die you come back to your (hobgoblin) body. I guess, I mean every DM will rule how they interpret the rules so all we can do is cross our fingers and hope for the best.
Another thing I was thinking about is the last part of Nysul's Magic Aura that deals with the Masking... does that mean I could make another creature type, like dragon, read to spells as a humanoid. If so I could make it so that magic jar reads a dragon as a humanoid and it's 'off to the races we go.'
Mask. You change the way the target appears to spells and magical effects that detect creature types, such as a paladin's Divine Sense or the trigger of a symbol spell. You choose a creature type and other spells and magical effects treat the target as if it were a creature of that type or of that alignment.
Good question, it seems that this effect works on any spell. I guess it would work RAW.
True again... once the body and soul are joined permanently, if you die you come back to your (hobgoblin) body. I guess, I mean every DM will rule how they interpret the rules so all we can do is cross our fingers and hope for the best.
Another thing I was thinking about is the last part of Nysul's Magic Aura that deals with the Masking... does that mean I could make another creature type, like dragon, read to spells as a humanoid. If so I could make it so that magic jar reads a dragon as a humanoid and it's 'off to the races we go.'
Mask. You change the way the target appears to spells and magical effects that detect creature types, such as a paladin's Divine Sense or the trigger of a symbol spell. You choose a creature type and other spells and magical effects treat the target as if it were a creature of that type or of that alignment.
Good question, it seems that this effect works on any spell. I guess it would work RAW.
Another question. If the creature you posses has legendary actions, do you have access to them?
It appears that the intent of Arcanist's Magic Aura is that it only works on spells that detect creature type. Spells that only work on specific creature types do not clearly detect creature types (detect is not well defined, so they also don't clearly not do so) -- if (absent Arcanist's Magic Aura) you cast Charm Person on a vampire, the spell fails, but you do not automatically know that the spell failed because the target was not a person, vs the spell failing because the target saved.
However, since detect is not a defined term of art, you can certainly rule the other way (if you are ruling that detection is special, this also means Arcanist's Magic Aura is ineffective against Protection from Evil and Good, turning, and the like, as those spells and abilities merely have restricted targets, rather than being a form of detection).
Well, Arcanist's Magic Aura can only be cast on an object that is not being used by another creature, or a willing creature, which severely limits its offensive uses, but defensively, just changing creature type to Monstrosity will protect against a whole bunch of spells and won't add any really noteworthy flaws, so I'm inclined to think it's only supposed to work on detection powers.
Not that it isn't horribly problematic even limited that way, as it's pretty easy to make permanent (30 castings of a level 2 spell, and doesn't have any expensive components) and should basically mean Detect Evil and Good and Detect Magic will be useless on halfway competent opposition by tier 2.
Yeah, I'm not clear on what they mean by detect? Even though they mention two examples to give you an idea (it doesn't mean these are the only two things it works on).
They're leaving it open-ended to make it compatible with future official content or with homebrew. I think the examples are fairly clear: the spell is talking about effects that reveal a creature's type or that can be set to react to specific types of creatures.
That last sentence... You choose a creature type and other spells and magical effects treat the target as if it were a creature of that type or of that alignment. ...makes me think you can do all sorts of fun things.
Pretty sure you're taking this sentence out of context. Remember, the previous sentence was talking about effects that detect creature types, and the very first sentence of the spell tells you it causes the target to reveal false information to divination spells. They're still talking about effects that detect creature types here. There's no way a 2nd level spells is going to let you cast spells on creature types they were never intended to work on (e.g. cure wounds on undead or awaken on an aberration).
What the spell is saying is that you can make a creature appear to be a different type for the purposes of divination spells, Glyph of Warding and the likes. It's still going to behave as its true creature type when you actually try to cast spells on it.
No, the rule is that both spells exist but only one can take effect (whichever is strongest, or as of the errata from a year or two, whichever is most recent if they're equal.) E.g. If someone casts Shield of Faith on you twice, you still have two copies of Shield of Faith active but you're not getting twice the AC. When one of them expires you're still going to have the other copy of the spell active on you.
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That's why I think the this would work. When you cast the second Magic Jar, the first one stops working, so will not affect you in any way, your soul will not be forced back into your body. It will stop affecting the humanoid soul aswell, so it will try to return to the it's body. But, if the body is more than 100 ft away, it will die.
Now:
a) you are in the second container because of the second Magic Jar;
b) the (original) body you cast the first Magic Jar is empty;
c) the first container is empty;
d) the body you cast the second Magic Jar (humanoid body) is empty;
e) First Magic Jar is active, but produces no effects;
f) Second Magic Jar is active and producing it's effects.
All you have to do is:
1 - Destroy the first container, ending the first Magic Jar;
2 - Return to the humanoid body, ending the second Magic Jar.
Now:
a) You are in the humanoid body without any Magic Jar active;
b) Your original body is empty. Maybe you want to keep it.
So, what do you think?
I also think that should be consequences.
Magic jar doesn't target a container. It targets the caster. In any case, there's enough here that's unclear that it will boil down to asking your DM whether it will work (or just trying it and finding out). I predict the DM saying it doesn't work.
Answering:
1 - The container is destroyed only if the spell ends, which is not the case when you cast it the second time. The first one will just not produce any of its effect on you.
2 - You can cast the Spell, take a long rest, then cast it again.
Ultimately it boils down to how the targeting of "Self" recognizes your soul in your own body from your soul in someone else's body. If those 2 states are determined to be discrete, then you can absolutely cast the spell twice, once from each body, and have both active independently. If they are not discrete states, and are recognized as the same thing, then this is all out the window as the first spell ending will force you to re-enter your own body or you die.
No, casting it again suppresses the effects of the earlier casting. The spell doesn't end.
Traditionally the spell could be dispelled by targeting either the container or the new body. To me it makes perfect sense the spell effect travels with your soul since the spell is what's allowing your soul to travel and it consistently uses "you" to refer to your soul and consciousness. Monsters capable of possession (e.g. ghost, intellect devourer) are written similarly.
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They are equally powerful, so the most recent one produces effects.
Just to stir the pot, what happens with Death Ward and Magic Jar?
What's killing you is an effect ending, rather than an effect being applied.
I don’t think the first casting has any effect on you when the first container is destroyed, but that doesn’t change the final result.
Good question, I think the Hobgoblin soul would come back, because that’s the only body it ever had. I think this use of Magic Jar, although possible RAW, subverts the “natural order” of dnd, creating metaphysical problems.
Your character would become an abomination. Maybe the gods would try to erase it from existence, to restore the order of things.
The body's owner comes back. Your entire logic only works if the caster is considered the body's owner (otherwise, 'your body' is the caster's original body, irrespective of the body he's in at the time of casting), so if this works at all, the caster's soul comes back.
Good question, it seems that this effect works on any spell. I guess it would work RAW.
Another question. If the creature you posses has legendary actions, do you have access to them?
It appears that the intent of Arcanist's Magic Aura is that it only works on spells that detect creature type. Spells that only work on specific creature types do not clearly detect creature types (detect is not well defined, so they also don't clearly not do so) -- if (absent Arcanist's Magic Aura) you cast Charm Person on a vampire, the spell fails, but you do not automatically know that the spell failed because the target was not a person, vs the spell failing because the target saved.
However, since detect is not a defined term of art, you can certainly rule the other way (if you are ruling that detection is special, this also means Arcanist's Magic Aura is ineffective against Protection from Evil and Good, turning, and the like, as those spells and abilities merely have restricted targets, rather than being a form of detection).
Well, Arcanist's Magic Aura can only be cast on an object that is not being used by another creature, or a willing creature, which severely limits its offensive uses, but defensively, just changing creature type to Monstrosity will protect against a whole bunch of spells and won't add any really noteworthy flaws, so I'm inclined to think it's only supposed to work on detection powers.
Not that it isn't horribly problematic even limited that way, as it's pretty easy to make permanent (30 castings of a level 2 spell, and doesn't have any expensive components) and should basically mean Detect Evil and Good and Detect Magic will be useless on halfway competent opposition by tier 2.
They're leaving it open-ended to make it compatible with future official content or with homebrew. I think the examples are fairly clear: the spell is talking about effects that reveal a creature's type or that can be set to react to specific types of creatures.
Pretty sure you're taking this sentence out of context. Remember, the previous sentence was talking about effects that detect creature types, and the very first sentence of the spell tells you it causes the target to reveal false information to divination spells. They're still talking about effects that detect creature types here. There's no way a 2nd level spells is going to let you cast spells on creature types they were never intended to work on (e.g. cure wounds on undead or awaken on an aberration).
What the spell is saying is that you can make a creature appear to be a different type for the purposes of divination spells, Glyph of Warding and the likes. It's still going to behave as its true creature type when you actually try to cast spells on it.
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I was looking for my Necromancer BBEG