I think Warlock, Cleric, and Druid stand out as having the best combined tanking, healing, and ranged damage abilities. I'm a bit hesitant about the Bard's tanking abilities
why do you feel that warlock is any more bulky than the bard, both have the same d8 hit dice, shure fiend warlocks get some temp HP and some resistances, hexblades get some armor proficiencies and you could always use an invocation to cast false life at will, but at the same time so can the bard use spells to bolster their defenses, particularly heroisim and whatever they can get themselves via bardic inspiration, valor bards can get some armor proficency and both valor and lore bards can use their bardic inspiration to straight up reduce damage taken? not saying you are wrong, just curious on your point of view
It's true, the Bard does have some pretty powerful tanking abilities. It looks like a combination of two Valor bards could each give the other inspiration dice to use for the Combat Inspiration purpose. So you'd need a pair of tanks, but it'd work. I didn't see the ability to use Bardic Inspiration to straight up reduce damage taken, but the ability for a pair of Valor Bards to use Bardic Inspiration to boost their AC and for Lore Bards to use Cutting Words at the same time is a powerful (but resource heavy) combination.
A Hexblade with Gift of the Ever Living Ones combined with a Celestial Warlock is a nice combination as well. The Hexblade level 10 ability gives them a 50% chance to turn a hit into a miss with their reaction (even crits). The Hexblade's level 1 ability gives them a decent amount of temporary HP once per short rest, the Celestial Warlock level 10 ability gives a decent amount of temporary HP at the end of every short rest. Fiendish Vigor is OP in tier 1, but isn't as good in tier 2, at which point it can be replaced by the Tomb of Levistus, a tanking ability that scales pretty well. Tomb of Levistus is another great way to handle critical hits, whereas the Bard abilities don't seem to have anything that can do that. Heroism is powerful in tier 1, but just like Fiendish Vigor, it drops off in tier 2.
Having played a tank, I've realized how important it is to have a way to handle critical hits. Especially when you're boosting your AC really high where it takes a 16 or higher to hit, that of course means that 20% of the attacks that do hit are going to be critical hits. And those still get double damage. So when you focus on boosting your AC, that means that a large portion of the hits on you are going to be very high damage critical hits. That's where the Hexblade's level 10 ability and their Tomb of Levistus ability both come in handy. Another important way to handle critical hits is to be able to heal back up afterwards, and that's where Gift of the Ever Living Ones comes in very handy.
Although at higher levels, the Bardic Inspiration boost to saving throws is pretty huge because a lot of damage is based on saving throws and not attacks. And the Hexblade reaction to have a 50% chance to turn a hit into a miss does nothing against those. So you're right, they're pretty comparable, and it's tough to compare them because their abilities are so different from each other. It's pretty awesome that their abilities are so different from each other and that it's so hard to compare them.
Having played a tank, I've realized how important it is to have a way to handle critical hits. Especially when you're boosting your AC really high where it takes a 16 or higher to hit, that of course means that 20% of the attacks that do hit are going to be critical hits. And those still get double damage. So when you focus on boosting your AC, that means that a large portion of the hits on you are going to be very high damage critical hits. That's where the Hexblade's level 10 ability and their Tomb of Levistus ability both come in handy. Another important way to handle critical hits is to be able to heal back up afterwards, and that's where Gift of the Ever Living Ones comes in very handy.
fun fact: crits do not give you double damage but instead just doubles the damage dice you roll, basically the same thing for an attack with no static bonuses to damage, but yeah you probably already knew that but just in case you did not
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Having played a tank, I've realized how important it is to have a way to handle critical hits. Especially when you're boosting your AC really high where it takes a 16 or higher to hit, that of course means that 20% of the attacks that do hit are going to be critical hits. And those still get double damage. So when you focus on boosting your AC, that means that a large portion of the hits on you are going to be very high damage critical hits. That's where the Hexblade's level 10 ability and their Tomb of Levistus ability both come in handy. Another important way to handle critical hits is to be able to heal back up afterwards, and that's where Gift of the Ever Living Ones comes in very handy.
fun fact: crits do not give you double damage but instead just doubles the damage dice you roll, basically the same thing for an attack with no static bonuses to damage, but yeah you probably already knew that but just in case you did not
Adamantine armor is cheap. Findable. Does not require attunement. And handles crits.
Having played a tank, I've realized how important it is to have a way to handle critical hits. Especially when you're boosting your AC really high where it takes a 16 or higher to hit, that of course means that 20% of the attacks that do hit are going to be critical hits. And those still get double damage. So when you focus on boosting your AC, that means that a large portion of the hits on you are going to be very high damage critical hits. That's where the Hexblade's level 10 ability and their Tomb of Levistus ability both come in handy. Another important way to handle critical hits is to be able to heal back up afterwards, and that's where Gift of the Ever Living Ones comes in very handy.
fun fact: crits do not give you double damage but instead just doubles the damage dice you roll, basically the same thing for an attack with no static bonuses to damage, but yeah you probably already knew that but just in case you did not
Adamantine armor is cheap. Findable. Does not require attunement. And handles crits.
for early game players 500 gold pieces is not cheap, unless you find a meteorite or vein with the metal, and adamantine armor is considered to be an magic item, something that prevents you from later applying other permanent magics to it
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i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Having played a tank, I've realized how important it is to have a way to handle critical hits. Especially when you're boosting your AC really high where it takes a 16 or higher to hit, that of course means that 20% of the attacks that do hit are going to be critical hits. And those still get double damage. So when you focus on boosting your AC, that means that a large portion of the hits on you are going to be very high damage critical hits. That's where the Hexblade's level 10 ability and their Tomb of Levistus ability both come in handy. Another important way to handle critical hits is to be able to heal back up afterwards, and that's where Gift of the Ever Living Ones comes in very handy.
fun fact: crits do not give you double damage but instead just doubles the damage dice you roll, basically the same thing for an attack with no static bonuses to damage, but yeah you probably already knew that but just in case you did not
Adamantine armor is cheap. Findable. Does not require attunement. And handles crits.
for early game players 500 gold pieces is not cheap, unless you find a meteorite or vein with the metal, and adamantine armor is considered to be an magic item, something that prevents you from later applying other permanent magics to it
The scenario painted did not imply level 1. But a more “enemies have multi attacks” kind of range. By then. 500 gold is cheap.
adamantine armor helps the whole party, not just the tank, usually other party members will help pool money in for that if they see the sense of it.
yeah, you can’t put other magic on it, but why would you need to? Plenty of other places and items you can do magic items, and being crit proof is really nice since this isn’t a spore Druid who just naturally becomes immune to crits.
and the crit damage depends on who and how they crit you. I wouldn’t statically call it a 2nd die either. But quantify it as a “usually” or “most of the time”. That way it leaves open the differences due to “vicious” weapons, or assassins, etc. things with special crit rules.
I'd think a party of wizards would wreck face, after level 3. 50% diviners + an evoker and a warmage.
i am annoyed at people who pick diviner for any reason other than the great roleplay of playing an seer who predicts the future and guides their companions, the go to feat for divination wizards should be ritual caster (cleric), not lucky
I'm annoyed at those who pontificate their playstyle preferences on others.
Having played a tank, I've realized how important it is to have a way to handle critical hits. Especially when you're boosting your AC really high where it takes a 16 or higher to hit, that of course means that 20% of the attacks that do hit are going to be critical hits. And those still get double damage. So when you focus on boosting your AC, that means that a large portion of the hits on you are going to be very high damage critical hits. That's where the Hexblade's level 10 ability and their Tomb of Levistus ability both come in handy. Another important way to handle critical hits is to be able to heal back up afterwards, and that's where Gift of the Ever Living Ones comes in very handy.
fun fact: crits do not give you double damage but instead just doubles the damage dice you roll, basically the same thing for an attack with no static bonuses to damage, but yeah you probably already knew that but just in case you did not
Adamantine armor is cheap. Findable. Does not require attunement. And handles crits.
for early game players 500 gold pieces is not cheap, unless you find a meteorite or vein with the metal, and adamantine armor is considered to be an magic item, something that prevents you from later applying other permanent magics to it
The scenario painted did not imply level 1. But a more “enemies have multi attacks” kind of range. By then. 500 gold is cheap.
adamantine armor helps the whole party, not just the tank, usually other party members will help pool money in for that if they see the sense of it.
yeah, you can’t put other magic on it, but why would you need to? Plenty of other places and items you can do magic items, and being crit proof is really nice since this isn’t a spore Druid who just naturally becomes immune to crits.
and the crit damage depends on who and how they crit you. I wouldn’t statically call it a 2nd die either. But quantify it as a “usually” or “most of the time”. That way it leaves open the differences due to “vicious” weapons, or assassins, etc. things with special crit rules.
Some groups are much better geared than others. In some groups, the players are so spoiled that they call their DM a dick when he gives everyone in the party a very rare item as a quest reward from dwarven artisans and lets them all design their own item, but he puts the stipulation that the item must be weapon or armor. Some groups are very set on min-maxing their characters and being extremely powerful and they let the DM know that they expect to be given a lot of money and a lot of powerful gear. But my group isn't that way.
500 gold is cheap in some groups, but it's not cheap in other groups. Heck, in another thread you're asserting that using weapon attacks is a trap for Clerics and you're assuming that Clerics never pick up a magical weapon when you're comparing cantrips vs weapon attacks. And now you're assuming Adamantine Armor is easy to purchase.
I've changed my mind, and I think that Bards are just as good as Warlocks at tanking when they have other Bards to support them. The Cutting Words ability of a Lore Bard supporting a tank, and the College of Valor's Combat Inspiration are a couple of abilities that a Bard tank can't use on his own, but that a Bard can use to support a fellow Bard tank. Two College of Valor Bard tanks giving each other Bardic Inspiration for the Combat Inspiration ability is a powerful tanking duo, especially if there's a third Bard with Cutting Words to back them up.
I'm not sure what level we're talking about for the party, I don't think it's ever been specified which tier(s) we are supposed to be considering.
I do think it's very important for the party to have access to Lesser Restoration, Dispel Magic, Remove Curse, and Greater Restoration. Just this week my Tempest Cleric was poisoned because she was too close to an enemy when we killed that enemy, and the effect would have caused 1D10 damage to her every turn for a minute. Without somebody in the party that could cure poison, that would have been a deadly effect. A party that doesn't have the ability to remove harmful spells, curses, and debuffs is at a very serious disadvantage. I think this disqualifies a lot of classes from consideration.
Having played a tank, I've realized how important it is to have a way to handle critical hits. Especially when you're boosting your AC really high where it takes a 16 or higher to hit, that of course means that 20% of the attacks that do hit are going to be critical hits. And those still get double damage. So when you focus on boosting your AC, that means that a large portion of the hits on you are going to be very high damage critical hits. That's where the Hexblade's level 10 ability and their Tomb of Levistus ability both come in handy. Another important way to handle critical hits is to be able to heal back up afterwards, and that's where Gift of the Ever Living Ones comes in very handy.
fun fact: crits do not give you double damage but instead just doubles the damage dice you roll, basically the same thing for an attack with no static bonuses to damage, but yeah you probably already knew that but just in case you did not
Adamantine armor is cheap. Findable. Does not require attunement. And handles crits.
for early game players 500 gold pieces is not cheap, unless you find a meteorite or vein with the metal, and adamantine armor is considered to be an magic item, something that prevents you from later applying other permanent magics to it
The scenario painted did not imply level 1. But a more “enemies have multi attacks” kind of range. By then. 500 gold is cheap.
adamantine armor helps the whole party, not just the tank, usually other party members will help pool money in for that if they see the sense of it.
yeah, you can’t put other magic on it, but why would you need to? Plenty of other places and items you can do magic items, and being crit proof is really nice since this isn’t a spore Druid who just naturally becomes immune to crits.
and the crit damage depends on who and how they crit you. I wouldn’t statically call it a 2nd die either. But quantify it as a “usually” or “most of the time”. That way it leaves open the differences due to “vicious” weapons, or assassins, etc. things with special crit rules.
Some groups are much better geared than others. In some groups, the players are so spoiled that they call their DM a dick when he gives everyone in the party a very rare item as a quest reward from dwarven artisans and lets them all design their own item, but he puts the stipulation that the item must be weapon or armor. Some groups are very set on min-maxing their characters and being extremely powerful and they let the DM know that they expect to be given a lot of money and a lot of powerful gear. But my group isn't that way.
500 gold is cheap in some groups, but it's not cheap in other groups. Heck, in another thread you're asserting that using weapon attacks is a trap for Clerics and you're assuming that Clerics never pick up a magical weapon when you're comparing cantrips vs weapon attacks. And now you're assuming Adamantine Armor is easy to purchase.
I've changed my mind, and I think that Bards are just as good as Warlocks at tanking when they have other Bards to support them. The Cutting Words ability of a Lore Bard supporting a tank, and the College of Valor's Combat Inspiration are a couple of abilities that a Bard tank can't use on his own, but that a Bard can use to support a fellow Bard tank. Two College of Valor Bard tanks giving each other Bardic Inspiration for the Combat Inspiration ability is a powerful tanking duo, especially if there's a third Bard with Cutting Words to back them up.
I'm not sure what level we're talking about for the party, I don't think it's ever been specified which tier(s) we are supposed to be considering.
I do think it's very important for the party to have access to Lesser Restoration, Dispel Magic, Remove Curse, and Greater Restoration. Just this week my Tempest Cleric was poisoned because she was too close to an enemy when we killed that enemy, and the effect would have caused 1D10 damage to her every turn for a minute. Without somebody in the party that could cure poison, that would have been a deadly effect. A party that doesn't have the ability to remove harmful spells, curses, and debuffs is at a very serious disadvantage. I think this disqualifies a lot of classes from consideration.
Or they could purchase potions that have remove poison, or restoration, and find temples/synagogues/mosques/cathedrals/etc where a curse can be removed.
sometimes makes for nice story arcs when a player has to work and fight for a way to remove a curse.....
*cough curse of strahd* *cough tomb of annihilation*
It's true, the Bard does have some pretty powerful tanking abilities. It looks like a combination of two Valor bards could each give the other inspiration dice to use for the Combat Inspiration purpose. So you'd need a pair of tanks, but it'd work. I didn't see the ability to use Bardic Inspiration to straight up reduce damage taken, but the ability for a pair of Valor Bards to use Bardic Inspiration to boost their AC and for Lore Bards to use Cutting Words at the same time is a powerful (but resource heavy) combination.
A Hexblade with Gift of the Ever Living Ones combined with a Celestial Warlock is a nice combination as well. The Hexblade level 10 ability gives them a 50% chance to turn a hit into a miss with their reaction (even crits). The Hexblade's level 1 ability gives them a decent amount of temporary HP once per short rest, the Celestial Warlock level 10 ability gives a decent amount of temporary HP at the end of every short rest. Fiendish Vigor is OP in tier 1, but isn't as good in tier 2, at which point it can be replaced by the Tomb of Levistus, a tanking ability that scales pretty well. Tomb of Levistus is another great way to handle critical hits, whereas the Bard abilities don't seem to have anything that can do that. Heroism is powerful in tier 1, but just like Fiendish Vigor, it drops off in tier 2.
Having played a tank, I've realized how important it is to have a way to handle critical hits. Especially when you're boosting your AC really high where it takes a 16 or higher to hit, that of course means that 20% of the attacks that do hit are going to be critical hits. And those still get double damage. So when you focus on boosting your AC, that means that a large portion of the hits on you are going to be very high damage critical hits. That's where the Hexblade's level 10 ability and their Tomb of Levistus ability both come in handy. Another important way to handle critical hits is to be able to heal back up afterwards, and that's where Gift of the Ever Living Ones comes in very handy.
Although at higher levels, the Bardic Inspiration boost to saving throws is pretty huge because a lot of damage is based on saving throws and not attacks. And the Hexblade reaction to have a 50% chance to turn a hit into a miss does nothing against those. So you're right, they're pretty comparable, and it's tough to compare them because their abilities are so different from each other. It's pretty awesome that their abilities are so different from each other and that it's so hard to compare them.
fun fact: crits do not give you double damage but instead just doubles the damage dice you roll, basically the same thing for an attack with no static bonuses to damage, but yeah you probably already knew that but just in case you did not
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
Adamantine armor is cheap. Findable. Does not require attunement. And handles crits.
Watch me on twitch
for early game players 500 gold pieces is not cheap, unless you find a meteorite or vein with the metal, and adamantine armor is considered to be an magic item, something that prevents you from later applying other permanent magics to it
i am soup, with too many ideas (all of them very spicy) who has made sufficient homebrew material and character to last an thousand human lifetimes
The scenario painted did not imply level 1. But a more “enemies have multi attacks” kind of range. By then. 500 gold is cheap.
adamantine armor helps the whole party, not just the tank, usually other party members will help pool money in for that if they see the sense of it.
yeah, you can’t put other magic on it, but why would you need to? Plenty of other places and items you can do magic items, and being crit proof is really nice since this isn’t a spore Druid who just naturally becomes immune to crits.
and the crit damage depends on who and how they crit you. I wouldn’t statically call it a 2nd die either. But quantify it as a “usually” or “most of the time”. That way it leaves open the differences due to “vicious” weapons, or assassins, etc. things with special crit rules.
Watch me on twitch
I'm annoyed at those who pontificate their playstyle preferences on others.
Some groups are much better geared than others. In some groups, the players are so spoiled that they call their DM a dick when he gives everyone in the party a very rare item as a quest reward from dwarven artisans and lets them all design their own item, but he puts the stipulation that the item must be weapon or armor. Some groups are very set on min-maxing their characters and being extremely powerful and they let the DM know that they expect to be given a lot of money and a lot of powerful gear. But my group isn't that way.
500 gold is cheap in some groups, but it's not cheap in other groups. Heck, in another thread you're asserting that using weapon attacks is a trap for Clerics and you're assuming that Clerics never pick up a magical weapon when you're comparing cantrips vs weapon attacks. And now you're assuming Adamantine Armor is easy to purchase.
I've changed my mind, and I think that Bards are just as good as Warlocks at tanking when they have other Bards to support them. The Cutting Words ability of a Lore Bard supporting a tank, and the College of Valor's Combat Inspiration are a couple of abilities that a Bard tank can't use on his own, but that a Bard can use to support a fellow Bard tank. Two College of Valor Bard tanks giving each other Bardic Inspiration for the Combat Inspiration ability is a powerful tanking duo, especially if there's a third Bard with Cutting Words to back them up.
I'm not sure what level we're talking about for the party, I don't think it's ever been specified which tier(s) we are supposed to be considering.
I do think it's very important for the party to have access to Lesser Restoration, Dispel Magic, Remove Curse, and Greater Restoration. Just this week my Tempest Cleric was poisoned because she was too close to an enemy when we killed that enemy, and the effect would have caused 1D10 damage to her every turn for a minute. Without somebody in the party that could cure poison, that would have been a deadly effect. A party that doesn't have the ability to remove harmful spells, curses, and debuffs is at a very serious disadvantage. I think this disqualifies a lot of classes from consideration.
Or they could purchase potions that have remove poison, or restoration, and find temples/synagogues/mosques/cathedrals/etc where a curse can be removed.
sometimes makes for nice story arcs when a player has to work and fight for a way to remove a curse.....
*cough curse of strahd* *cough tomb of annihilation*
Watch me on twitch
I wouldn’t eliminate any single class for single class campaigns. I would even recommend try them all, and try multiples of each.
they’re a lot of fun. Some are just more fun than others.
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A party of Paladins. They take out most enemies pretty quickly, and have meh healing on top of that
I exist, and I guess so does this