As a player I typically use the standard array for making my character. I have recently joined a new campaign and wanted to try a manual array for my new character. The one problem is I have no idea how to calculate what is fair or what optimal. How do you determine the fairness of the stats?
Standard Array is just that -- standard. It's a recommended baseline that both prevents a character from being too powerful, but also from being too weak.
Point Buy is built around the concept of the Standard Array, but allows the player some agency in customizing the stats for a more personalized experience. You can "sell" points in your dump stats to instead be "spent" increasing your primary, for example, or padding out a stat that you need a little extra of, but don't want to "waste" a Feat or ASI to fill in.
Manual is meant for purely custom generation, and usually refers to rolling dice to determine stats. You are leaving your fate to the RNG gods, and their response will fall where it may. The most common method is roll 4d6, drop the lowest then add. This gives a range from 3 to 18 being possible outcomes. Other variations may have rerolls on, for example, any total less than 10, or rerolling any 1's that come up, etc.
A very interesting roll method I heard about here on the site, but will generally produce characters with very high stats, is to roll a pool of 24 dice, and drop 6 dice. Rearrange the remaining dice however you like into groups of 3. Not hard to get all dice above a 4 with that. But depending on the DM's intentions with the world, it may be appropriate.
manual is meant for a lot of things, from allowing you to enter pure 3d6 results - to fudging until you get whatever number you want.
if you want to be cool, roll 3d6 and input the numbers, straight down the line, no rerolls or extra dice.
someone should make a tshirt that says 'i roll 3d6 for my stats'
my rogue's stats are 9, 12, 11, 8, 17, 7 ...and he's epic.
what's fair? when it comes to stats, i'd say only point buy and standard array are fair unless you roll in front of the DM and hold yourself to those numbers....which is why they made the other two systems.
what's optimal? there's no way to answer that as it depends on what you do and how you and the DM play - more so than what the class favors imo.
In all seriousness, you do this by having all players use the same method.
Maybe all players use the standard array. Maybe they all use point buy. Maybe they all roll (using the same set of dice, in front of everyone so we can all celebrate/commiserate).
i like manual option RP wise, not that i have played a lot, just a couple of characters. my current character is a great example, he is a tortle and i rolled all over the board, one roll was 4 "6's" so i straight away got a 20 in strength due to the +2 racial trait, but also got a "3" and 3 "1's" so have a 5 intelligence. i am a paladin and have just got my find a steed spell, so when i cast it, my steed is more intelligent than me due to them having a 6
True fairness is everyone using a similar array. That typically means standard array or point buy. Rolling often produces inequality between party members which inevitably leads to frustration.
The highest stat Johnny Barbarian rolled was a 14, so he put it in Strength. Sally rolled 18, 18, 17, 15, 12, 10 for her bard and put the 18 in strength. Now Johnny - who wanted to be the strong, muscular guy in the party - is objectively weaker than the bard, who is also better than him at everything else. And this is not a roll that affected one battle or one session - its result has major consequences for the entire campaign. You don't hear stories on this forum from guys like Johnny because they either beg the DM for a reroll until they get one or they eventually drop out.
Stat arrays also affect classes differently. Heath's rogue mentioned above is epic largely because rogues need one stat to do their job. Other classes that rely on several stats such as Paladin or Blood Hunter would be much worse at performing their baseline duties with that same array.
That being said, I think a good compromise is everyone rolling an array and picking one of those for everyone to use. And hopefully it has both high and low numbers because 1) both can be fun to roleplay and 2) it generates a party where characters are better than the rest in their specialties, which is a concept built in to D&D.
Rolling often produces inequality between party members which inevitably leads to frustration.
Good point. When random numbers are involved, fiarness does not necessarily lead to equality.
My experience with random number generation of stats is that everyone wants to roll, but only if they get good numbers. If they get bad numbers, then phrases like "died in training" are trotted out. What players really want seems to be, "a chance to be better than anyone else but no chance to be worse."
Point buy and standard array take away the chance to be better than everyone else, but also take away the chance to be worse.
Rolling often produces inequality between party members which inevitably leads to frustration.
Good point. When random numbers are involved, fiarness does not necessarily lead to equality.
My experience with random number generation of stats is that everyone wants to roll, but only if they get good numbers. If they get bad numbers, then phrases like "died in training" are trotted out. What players really want seems to be, "a chance to be better than anyone else but no chance to be worse."
Point buy and standard array take away the chance to be better than everyone else, but also take away the chance to be worse.
Ultimately it boils down to a philosophical decision by the DM about how they want the party to interact with the world. Point Buy and the Standard Array are great for more of the idea that anybody can become a hero. You don't have to be ultra buff to be a Barbarian, or ultra charismatic to be a Bard or Paladin. Some of the rolling methods, like the pool method, generate characters that are heroes among men. These outstanding individuals are above average at everything, and really good at certain things.
And higher base stats across the board give the DM more leeway to throw cool but dangerous monsters and combat scenarios at the party earlier, because with generally inflated stats there's more room for error. If every member of the party has a higher Constitution, that means everyone also has more hitpoints. Higher Dex ensures a higher base AC. So you can pile on some extra Kobolds in this encounter, or add a second swamp gator to that one, and the party's chances aren't diminished. Maybe a particular baddie has a neat enchanted weapon that could be looted.
On the other hand, I feel kind of bad for the people who post their character who have 2 feats at level 8 with a 20 in their main stat, an 18 in their secondary and don't know what feat to take next. They're basically maxed out and have no more meaningful progression outside of their class features. They have no more meaningful choices to make.
Starting with a 16 in your main stat is still far beyond the capabilities of regular folk. You are still an ultra buff barbarian. You're just not also somehow smarter and wiser than the town elder. And when level 4 comes around, choosing between that feat you really want and a bump in STR is a really meaningful, important choice that represents notable growth.
But as I said, ultimately I'm mainly concerned with balance between characters. Everyone using the same overtuned array is still preferable to having potentially major variation in effectiveness between the PCs.
Stats are inflated from the original concept. 10 is the average, and the classical 3d6 roll gave a reasonable bell curve around that. To make it more equitable, have the table roll collectively. Roll a bag of d6s. 20 per character at the table. Then have players take and place dice draft style on their character sheets until everyone has 3d6 in each ability. This keeps the overall stat inflation down, while giving everyone a decent main stat.
True fairness is everyone using a similar array. That typically means standard array or point buy. Rolling often produces inequality between party members which inevitably leads to frustration.
The highest stat Johnny Barbarian rolled was a 14, so he put it in Strength. Sally rolled 18, 18, 17, 15, 12, 10 for her bard and put the 18 in strength. Now Johnny - who wanted to be the strong, muscular guy in the party - is objectively weaker than the bard, who is also better than him at everything else. And this is not a roll that affected one battle or one session - its result has major consequences for the entire campaign. You don't hear stories on this forum from guys like Johnny because they either beg the DM for a reroll until they get one or they eventually drop out.
Stat arrays also affect classes differently. Heath's rogue mentioned above is epic largely because rogues need one stat to do their job. Other classes that rely on several stats such as Paladin or Blood Hunter would be much worse at performing their baseline duties with that same array.
That being said, I think a good compromise is everyone rolling an array and picking one of those for everyone to use. And hopefully it has both high and low numbers because 1) both can be fun to roleplay and 2) it generates a party where characters are better than the rest in their specialties, which is a concept built in to D&D.
Agreed on all counts.
There are some more elaborate ways to get randomness and 100% fairness, but at that point it's just easier to say "here's 80 points. do whatever the hell you want."
5) Each player can pick any row or column they want.
The problem with using only one array for everybody is that some characters have higher degrees of MADness than others.
Interesting idea. For my last campaign I simply allowed all players to roll 4d6X6, and then let all the players choose between all the arrays (I got that idea on the forums here to be fair). I would suppose your method might create some really good arrays, so would might have considered only rolling 3d6. The "problem" I had was that one of the player rolled an array that was completely superior to all the others, so everyone just chose that. In an ideal world, you would like to have arrays with different "qualities" that makes them interesting.
But the method "roll arrays for everyone" works fine. It creates characters that are more powerful than the standard array, but that's not that hard to account for.
Ultimately it boils down to a philosophical decision by the DM about how they want the party to interact with the world. Point Buy and the Standard Array are great for more of the idea that anybody can become a hero. You don't have to be ultra buff to be a Barbarian, or ultra charismatic to be a Bard or Paladin. Some of the rolling methods, like the pool method, generate characters that are heroes among men. These outstanding individuals are above average at everything, and really good at certain things.
And higher base stats across the board give the DM more leeway to throw cool but dangerous monsters and combat scenarios at the party earlier, because with generally inflated stats there's more room for error. If every member of the party has a higher Constitution, that means everyone also has more hitpoints. Higher Dex ensures a higher base AC. So you can pile on some extra Kobolds in this encounter, or add a second swamp gator to that one, and the party's chances aren't diminished. Maybe a particular baddie has a neat enchanted weapon that could be looted.
But if only one or two characters have those higher stats, things are worse. The GM can't throw dangerous monsters at a party if those monsters would one-shot three fifths of the party. If one PC has a 20+ AC but the next has 14, then monsters that would be no threat to the tough character are going to kill the weaker ones.
I've been a player a few times in games where my PC was not one of the "heroes among men." It's not fun. The worst was a Traveller game where the space marine was better at starship piloting than my 4-tour imperial pilot.
Put simply, everyone wants to play Kai or Zev; no-one wants to be Stanley Tweedle (especially when the party consists of Zev, Kai and four Stanleys!).
Rolling often produces inequality between party members which inevitably leads to frustration.
Good point. When random numbers are involved, fiarness does not necessarily lead to equality.
My experience with random number generation of stats is that everyone wants to roll, but only if they get good numbers. If they get bad numbers, then phrases like "died in training" are trotted out. What players really want seems to be, "a chance to be better than anyone else but no chance to be worse."
Point buy and standard array take away the chance to be better than everyone else, but also take away the chance to be worse.
Heh.
The only "fairness" involved is that the method used to generate stats is the same. In actual play, random rolling pretty much ensures a lack of fairness.
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As a player I typically use the standard array for making my character. I have recently joined a new campaign and wanted to try a manual array for my new character. The one problem is I have no idea how to calculate what is fair or what optimal. How do you determine the fairness of the stats?
Your meant to roll your stats.
Get with your DM and see how they want stats rolled. We did 4d6 discarding the lowest die and did that 6 times and placed them in the stats.
it’s how I ended up with my Druid with 4 in charisma lol
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Standard Array is just that -- standard. It's a recommended baseline that both prevents a character from being too powerful, but also from being too weak.
Point Buy is built around the concept of the Standard Array, but allows the player some agency in customizing the stats for a more personalized experience. You can "sell" points in your dump stats to instead be "spent" increasing your primary, for example, or padding out a stat that you need a little extra of, but don't want to "waste" a Feat or ASI to fill in.
Manual is meant for purely custom generation, and usually refers to rolling dice to determine stats. You are leaving your fate to the RNG gods, and their response will fall where it may. The most common method is roll 4d6, drop the lowest then add. This gives a range from 3 to 18 being possible outcomes. Other variations may have rerolls on, for example, any total less than 10, or rerolling any 1's that come up, etc.
A very interesting roll method I heard about here on the site, but will generally produce characters with very high stats, is to roll a pool of 24 dice, and drop 6 dice. Rearrange the remaining dice however you like into groups of 3. Not hard to get all dice above a 4 with that. But depending on the DM's intentions with the world, it may be appropriate.
manual is meant for a lot of things, from allowing you to enter pure 3d6 results - to fudging until you get whatever number you want.
if you want to be cool, roll 3d6 and input the numbers, straight down the line, no rerolls or extra dice.
someone should make a tshirt that says 'i roll 3d6 for my stats'
my rogue's stats are 9, 12, 11, 8, 17, 7 ...and he's epic.
what's fair? when it comes to stats, i'd say only point buy and standard array are fair unless you roll in front of the DM and hold yourself to those numbers....which is why they made the other two systems.
what's optimal? there's no way to answer that as it depends on what you do and how you and the DM play - more so than what the class favors imo.
Guide to the Five Factions (PWYW)
Deck of Decks
In all seriousness, you do this by having all players use the same method.
Maybe all players use the standard array. Maybe they all use point buy. Maybe they all roll (using the same set of dice, in front of everyone so we can all celebrate/commiserate).
i like manual option RP wise, not that i have played a lot, just a couple of characters. my current character is a great example, he is a tortle and i rolled all over the board, one roll was 4 "6's" so i straight away got a 20 in strength due to the +2 racial trait, but also got a "3" and 3 "1's" so have a 5 intelligence. i am a paladin and have just got my find a steed spell, so when i cast it, my steed is more intelligent than me due to them having a 6
True fairness is everyone using a similar array. That typically means standard array or point buy. Rolling often produces inequality between party members which inevitably leads to frustration.
The highest stat Johnny Barbarian rolled was a 14, so he put it in Strength. Sally rolled 18, 18, 17, 15, 12, 10 for her bard and put the 18 in strength. Now Johnny - who wanted to be the strong, muscular guy in the party - is objectively weaker than the bard, who is also better than him at everything else. And this is not a roll that affected one battle or one session - its result has major consequences for the entire campaign. You don't hear stories on this forum from guys like Johnny because they either beg the DM for a reroll until they get one or they eventually drop out.
Stat arrays also affect classes differently. Heath's rogue mentioned above is epic largely because rogues need one stat to do their job. Other classes that rely on several stats such as Paladin or Blood Hunter would be much worse at performing their baseline duties with that same array.
That being said, I think a good compromise is everyone rolling an array and picking one of those for everyone to use. And hopefully it has both high and low numbers because 1) both can be fun to roleplay and 2) it generates a party where characters are better than the rest in their specialties, which is a concept built in to D&D.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Good point. When random numbers are involved, fiarness does not necessarily lead to equality.
My experience with random number generation of stats is that everyone wants to roll, but only if they get good numbers. If they get bad numbers, then phrases like "died in training" are trotted out. What players really want seems to be, "a chance to be better than anyone else but no chance to be worse."
Point buy and standard array take away the chance to be better than everyone else, but also take away the chance to be worse.
Ultimately it boils down to a philosophical decision by the DM about how they want the party to interact with the world. Point Buy and the Standard Array are great for more of the idea that anybody can become a hero. You don't have to be ultra buff to be a Barbarian, or ultra charismatic to be a Bard or Paladin. Some of the rolling methods, like the pool method, generate characters that are heroes among men. These outstanding individuals are above average at everything, and really good at certain things.
And higher base stats across the board give the DM more leeway to throw cool but dangerous monsters and combat scenarios at the party earlier, because with generally inflated stats there's more room for error. If every member of the party has a higher Constitution, that means everyone also has more hitpoints. Higher Dex ensures a higher base AC. So you can pile on some extra Kobolds in this encounter, or add a second swamp gator to that one, and the party's chances aren't diminished. Maybe a particular baddie has a neat enchanted weapon that could be looted.
On the other hand, I feel kind of bad for the people who post their character who have 2 feats at level 8 with a 20 in their main stat, an 18 in their secondary and don't know what feat to take next. They're basically maxed out and have no more meaningful progression outside of their class features. They have no more meaningful choices to make.
Starting with a 16 in your main stat is still far beyond the capabilities of regular folk. You are still an ultra buff barbarian. You're just not also somehow smarter and wiser than the town elder. And when level 4 comes around, choosing between that feat you really want and a bump in STR is a really meaningful, important choice that represents notable growth.
But as I said, ultimately I'm mainly concerned with balance between characters. Everyone using the same overtuned array is still preferable to having potentially major variation in effectiveness between the PCs.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Stats are inflated from the original concept. 10 is the average, and the classical 3d6 roll gave a reasonable bell curve around that. To make it more equitable, have the table roll collectively. Roll a bag of d6s. 20 per character at the table. Then have players take and place dice draft style on their character sheets until everyone has 3d6 in each ability. This keeps the overall stat inflation down, while giving everyone a decent main stat.
Agreed on all counts.
There are some more elaborate ways to get randomness and 100% fairness, but at that point it's just easier to say "here's 80 points. do whatever the hell you want."
1) Everybody rolls 4d6, drop low
2) Arrange each set of six into high-to-low
3) Put them in a 6x 6 array (with extra rolls to get to six sets, if necessary)
4) Stagger the array so that each row has one set's highest number. (Highest numbers are underlined in the chart below)
For Example:
16 8 10 13 14 14
15 17 9 12 14 13
15 16 18 10 10 12
12 12 12 17 6 12
9 12 12 17 16 8
7 10 12 16 14 15
5) Each player can pick any row or column they want.
The problem with using only one array for everybody is that some characters have higher degrees of MADness than others.
Interesting idea. For my last campaign I simply allowed all players to roll 4d6X6, and then let all the players choose between all the arrays (I got that idea on the forums here to be fair). I would suppose your method might create some really good arrays, so would might have considered only rolling 3d6. The "problem" I had was that one of the player rolled an array that was completely superior to all the others, so everyone just chose that. In an ideal world, you would like to have arrays with different "qualities" that makes them interesting.
But the method "roll arrays for everyone" works fine. It creates characters that are more powerful than the standard array, but that's not that hard to account for.
Ludo ergo sum!
But if only one or two characters have those higher stats, things are worse. The GM can't throw dangerous monsters at a party if those monsters would one-shot three fifths of the party. If one PC has a 20+ AC but the next has 14, then monsters that would be no threat to the tough character are going to kill the weaker ones.
I've been a player a few times in games where my PC was not one of the "heroes among men." It's not fun. The worst was a Traveller game where the space marine was better at starship piloting than my 4-tour imperial pilot.
Put simply, everyone wants to play Kai or Zev; no-one wants to be Stanley Tweedle (especially when the party consists of Zev, Kai and four Stanleys!).
Heh.
The only "fairness" involved is that the method used to generate stats is the same. In actual play, random rolling pretty much ensures a lack of fairness.