Flame blade was “over balanced” because it’s a PHB spell. If we look at the recommended damage criteria table for spells in the DMG pg 284, you will see that the recommended damage for a spell of single target at level 2 is 3d10 (16 damage). Recommended damage for multiple targets is 4d6(14 damage).
instead of making the spell deal 4d6, which might make sense since it’s single target damage multiple times, they decided to reduce the damage by a 1d6 since it lasts for 10 minutes and makes a bit of light. The nerf was too much.
they valued a spell slot being useful for slightly more than an action to cast damage cantrip at that level more than the fact that an AOE front loads that damage while still potentially doing that cantrip damage ore higher. They also do t take into account the fact that its a CONCENTRATION based MELEE spell. Your not gonna keep that concentration. Spells super flawed and needs to be reworked.
it should add spellcasting mod or an additional die. Maybe an interesting effect added like if you successfully hit with the blade, you can’t lose concentration with it from damage caused saves for 1 round?
Flame blade was “over balanced” because it’s a PHB spell. If we look at the recommended damage criteria table for spells in the DMG pg 284, you will see that the recommended damage for a spell of single target at level 2 is 3d10 (16 damage). Recommended damage for multiple targets is 4d6(14 damage).
Are there any 2nd level spells that actually hit that hard? The only one I can think of is Scorching Ray.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Flame blade was “over balanced” because it’s a PHB spell. If we look at the recommended damage criteria table for spells in the DMG pg 284, you will see that the recommended damage for a spell of single target at level 2 is 3d10 (16 damage). Recommended damage for multiple targets is 4d6(14 damage).
Are there any 2nd level spells that actually hit that hard? The only one I can think of is Scorching Ray.
If you manage to keep the target within the area, Cloud of Daggers can pile up quickly. The trick is keeping the target in the area.
Dragon's Breath can also build up, at 3d6 per action in a 15 foot cone. Probably a good idea to put it on something other than yourself, though, cause of Concentration.
With careful placement you can get a lot of mileage out of Flaming Sphere, but moving it around becomes finicky. Damage occurs at end of creature's turn, so harder.
Heat Metal on something like a metal breastplate can go a long way. 2d8 per turn for up to 1 minute gets to be pretty high. How long does it take to doff metal armors?
Moonbeam does 2d10 to anything that enters the area or starts it's turn there, but it's on a Con save, so likely half that. But also up to 1 minute.
Interesting thing about Shadow Blade is that the scaling itself scales. The higher level slot you cast it with, the more dice it adds. Even without that, though, it's 2d8 psychic per successful melee attack. Concentration though...
In a prolonged conflict in a specific area, Spike Growth can add up to a lot, but that's going to be highly situational and terrain dependent.
Finally, Spiritual Weapon does 1d8 + spell mod per bonus action for up to 10 attacks.
Scorching Ray is clearly the fastest and most straightforward way to fry a guy at this spell level, but it doesn't make the short list for highest potential damage from the spell slot.
Flame blade was “over balanced” because it’s a PHB spell. If we look at the recommended damage criteria table for spells in the DMG pg 284, you will see that the recommended damage for a spell of single target at level 2 is 3d10 (16 damage). Recommended damage for multiple targets is 4d6(14 damage).
Are there any 2nd level spells that actually hit that hard? The only one I can think of is Scorching Ray.
Not really. Most spells on 2nd level have something like 4d4, 2d6, 3d6, 2d8, 3d8, 2d10 max., which is kind of underwhelming.
Shatter is a 3D8 area of effect with a 10ft radius. It's up there with Scorching Ray, Flaming Sphere, Heat Metal, and Spiritual Weapon for being one of the best 2nd level blasting spells. It's a less resisted damage type than fire, which is a nice bonus.
Flame blade was “over balanced” because it’s a PHB spell. If we look at the recommended damage criteria table for spells in the DMG pg 284, you will see that the recommended damage for a spell of single target at level 2 is 3d10 (16 damage). Recommended damage for multiple targets is 4d6(14 damage).
Are there any 2nd level spells that actually hit that hard? The only one I can think of is Scorching Ray.
Not really. Most spells on 2nd level have something like 4d4, 2d6, 3d6, 2d8, 3d8, 2d10 max., which is kind of underwhelming.
plus flame blade can be used multiple times
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“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
As Gabrielrockman pointed out, so can Primal Savagery, a melee spell attack Druid cantrip which requiers no spell slot to be expended, concentration to be maintained, or spell focus to be used, and yet which outclasses the second-level spell Flame Blade by as soon as level 5.
At 11th level, Primal Savagery is 3d10 acid damage, turn over turn, from a cantrip. That averages to 16 damage of a better damage type with no spell focus, and which can be done in a Silence bubble or theoretically without breaking stealth as Primal Savagery requires no verbal or material components. Purely somatic.
For Flame Blade to eclipse this damage, it would need to throw 5d6 damage, which averages to 17. One point of difference...in exchange for a sixth level spell slot.
Sixth level. That's a High Arcana spell slot, a Big Boi cast that you only ever get one of per day at 11th level, in order to beat the damage of a basic-ass cantrip that people don't even like and many consider to be highly suboptimal...by one freaking point per turn.
Yeah, that targeting rule in particular has always confused me. JC has consistently stuck to his guns about it being an important distinction whether a spell targets “creatures” or “creatures or objects”, but... why? What’s the test case of a spell that would perform in unintended or unbalanced ways were that not the case? If you can throw acid at a Mimic, why can’t you at a treasure chest? Sure, sure, some spells wouldn’t effect an object if cast on them, detect thoughts or something... but it’s an odd granularity to insist on for targeting, when it doesn’t really feel like it’s worth any power level points one way or the other for spell design.
It may be, but it’s still part of the balancing decisions. I don’t allow people to Eldritch Blast their way through doors, for example.
The question I usually put it down to is - is there a reason for it? Spiritual Weapon harms the spirit of an animate creature, but doesn’t do anything to a spirit-less door. And when I DM I keep pretty close to the rules here for that specific reason that it’s been balanced this way.
One of the balancing features for limiting spells targeting to creatures, instead of creatures/a point in space/objects, is that at some level spells start dealing slot of AOE damage while also being able to damage objects. This can bog down the game quite a bit when the DM has to figure out what happens to almost everything in the corner of a house when shatter gets cast.
anither factor is that somewhere around 6 or 7 level spells, there verbiage that protects the worn/caries items a creature has starts being dropped. There are spells like firestorm that will hurt you AND directly damage/break all of your equipment.
At 11th level, Primal Savagery is 3d10 acid damage, turn over turn, from a cantrip. That averages to 16 damage of a better damage type with no spell focus, and which can be done in a Silence bubble or theoretically without breaking stealth as Primal Savagery requires no verbal or material components. Purely somatic.
For Flame Blade to eclipse this damage, it would need to throw 5d6 damage, which averages to 17. One point of difference...in exchange for a sixth level spell slot.
Sixth level. That's a High Arcana spell slot, a Big Boi cast that you only ever get one of per day at 11th level, in order to beat the damage of a basic-ass cantrip that people don't even like and many consider to be highly suboptimal...by one freaking point per turn.
Not okay.
The fact that Shillelagh was brought up and is often panned for being a bad cantrip because it doesn't scale had already highlighted that for me. At least Shillelagh "scales" with extra attack.
I think this highlights a single instance of a recurring problem that people find in 5e which is, a better version of this exists so why does this exist? I think the answer is complicated but it really comes down to how one derives value from a D&D game. Spells and classes can be (and have been) created entirely for the sake of flavour and texture; Prestidigitation, for example, has no real, substantial benefits, but coupled with imagination it can do wondrous things. I think it boils down to roleplay - if you want your character to call upon a flaming sword, then you have that option.
This also allows the DM an extra option for a neat boss fight. Throw in a legendary action to cast this on a boss' turn once their health hits half and boom, you have yourself a standard Dark Souls 3 boss encounter.
”The fire damages objects in the area and ignites flammable objects that aren't being worn or carried.”
ive always read that it damages and all objects in the area, but only ignites non worn/carried objects.
Since the only damage listed is the 7d10 number, I would think that being damaged AND ignited is this damage number. It applies to all objects in the area that aren't carried or worn. I would also gather, those objects damaged and ignited would continue to burn until their destruction, with out interference. It also would make little sense in my opinion to have all your items destroyed but, be spared from being ignited.
That's my take on it. So for clarity, even thought that's what I think it means, I would it state differently to avoid confusion. More like:
The fire damages objects in the area and ignites flammable objects, that aren't being worn or carried.
The fire damages objects in the area = Objects in the area take 7d10.
and ignites flammable objects = only Flammables are ignited, specific inclusion.
that aren't being worn or carried. = specific exclusion from both prior effects.
Mordenkainen sword has the ability to attack objects. It’s still not good enough though.
Flame blade was “over balanced” because it’s a PHB spell.
If we look at the recommended damage criteria table for spells in the DMG pg 284, you will see that the recommended damage for a spell of single target at level 2 is 3d10 (16 damage).
Recommended damage for multiple targets is 4d6(14 damage).
instead of making the spell deal 4d6, which might make sense since it’s single target damage multiple times, they decided to reduce the damage by a 1d6 since it lasts for 10 minutes and makes a bit of light. The nerf was too much.
they valued a spell slot being useful for slightly more than an action to cast damage cantrip at that level more than the fact that an AOE front loads that damage while still potentially doing that cantrip damage ore higher.
They also do t take into account the fact that its a CONCENTRATION based MELEE spell. Your not gonna keep that concentration. Spells super flawed and needs to be reworked.
it should add spellcasting mod or an additional die. Maybe an interesting effect added like if you successfully hit with the blade, you can’t lose concentration with it from damage caused saves for 1 round?
Are there any 2nd level spells that actually hit that hard? The only one I can think of is Scorching Ray.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
If you manage to keep the target within the area, Cloud of Daggers can pile up quickly. The trick is keeping the target in the area.
Dragon's Breath can also build up, at 3d6 per action in a 15 foot cone. Probably a good idea to put it on something other than yourself, though, cause of Concentration.
With careful placement you can get a lot of mileage out of Flaming Sphere, but moving it around becomes finicky. Damage occurs at end of creature's turn, so harder.
Heat Metal on something like a metal breastplate can go a long way. 2d8 per turn for up to 1 minute gets to be pretty high. How long does it take to doff metal armors?
Maximilian's Earthen Grasp is similar, but it adds Restrained for additional funzies. Makes Cloud of Daggers a lot more viable...
Moonbeam does 2d10 to anything that enters the area or starts it's turn there, but it's on a Con save, so likely half that. But also up to 1 minute.
Interesting thing about Shadow Blade is that the scaling itself scales. The higher level slot you cast it with, the more dice it adds. Even without that, though, it's 2d8 psychic per successful melee attack. Concentration though...
In a prolonged conflict in a specific area, Spike Growth can add up to a lot, but that's going to be highly situational and terrain dependent.
Finally, Spiritual Weapon does 1d8 + spell mod per bonus action for up to 10 attacks.
Scorching Ray is clearly the fastest and most straightforward way to fry a guy at this spell level, but it doesn't make the short list for highest potential damage from the spell slot.
Not really. Most spells on 2nd level have something like 4d4, 2d6, 3d6, 2d8, 3d8, 2d10 max., which is kind of underwhelming.
Shatter is a 3D8 area of effect with a 10ft radius. It's up there with Scorching Ray, Flaming Sphere, Heat Metal, and Spiritual Weapon for being one of the best 2nd level blasting spells. It's a less resisted damage type than fire, which is a nice bonus.
plus flame blade can be used multiple times
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
As Gabrielrockman pointed out, so can Primal Savagery, a melee spell attack Druid cantrip which requiers no spell slot to be expended, concentration to be maintained, or spell focus to be used, and yet which outclasses the second-level spell Flame Blade by as soon as level 5.
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I'm going to make this way harder than it needs to be.
Worth noting?
At 11th level, Primal Savagery is 3d10 acid damage, turn over turn, from a cantrip. That averages to 16 damage of a better damage type with no spell focus, and which can be done in a Silence bubble or theoretically without breaking stealth as Primal Savagery requires no verbal or material components. Purely somatic.
For Flame Blade to eclipse this damage, it would need to throw 5d6 damage, which averages to 17. One point of difference...in exchange for a sixth level spell slot.
Sixth level. That's a High Arcana spell slot, a Big Boi cast that you only ever get one of per day at 11th level, in order to beat the damage of a basic-ass cantrip that people don't even like and many consider to be highly suboptimal...by one freaking point per turn.
Not okay.
Please do not contact or message me.
100%. flame blade is terrible, I was just outlining the thought process.
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
It may be, but it’s still part of the balancing decisions. I don’t allow people to Eldritch Blast their way through doors, for example.
The question I usually put it down to is - is there a reason for it? Spiritual Weapon harms the spirit of an animate creature, but doesn’t do anything to a spirit-less door. And when I DM I keep pretty close to the rules here for that specific reason that it’s been balanced this way.
One of the balancing features for limiting spells targeting to creatures, instead of creatures/a point in space/objects, is that at some level spells start dealing slot of AOE damage while also being able to damage objects. This can bog down the game quite a bit when the DM has to figure out what happens to almost everything in the corner of a house when shatter gets cast.
anither factor is that somewhere around 6 or 7 level spells, there verbiage that protects the worn/caries items a creature has starts being dropped. There are spells like firestorm that will hurt you AND directly damage/break all of your equipment.
Better read Fire Storm again.
The fact that Shillelagh was brought up and is often panned for being a bad cantrip because it doesn't scale had already highlighted that for me. At least Shillelagh "scales" with extra attack.
I think this highlights a single instance of a recurring problem that people find in 5e which is, a better version of this exists so why does this exist? I think the answer is complicated but it really comes down to how one derives value from a D&D game. Spells and classes can be (and have been) created entirely for the sake of flavour and texture; Prestidigitation, for example, has no real, substantial benefits, but coupled with imagination it can do wondrous things. I think it boils down to roleplay - if you want your character to call upon a flaming sword, then you have that option.
This also allows the DM an extra option for a neat boss fight. Throw in a legendary action to cast this on a boss' turn once their health hits half and boom, you have yourself a standard Dark Souls 3 boss encounter.
Does firestorm not damage worn objects?
”The fire damages objects in the area and ignites flammable objects that aren't being worn or carried.”
ive always read that it damages all objects in the area, but only ignites non worn/carried objects.
Since the only damage listed is the 7d10 number, I would think that being damaged AND ignited is this damage number. It applies to all objects in the area that aren't carried or worn. I would also gather, those objects damaged and ignited would continue to burn until their destruction, with out interference. It also would make little sense in my opinion to have all your items destroyed but, be spared from being ignited.
That's my take on it. So for clarity, even thought that's what I think it means, I would it state differently to avoid confusion. More like:
The fire damages objects in the area and ignites flammable objects, that aren't being worn or carried.
The fire damages objects in the area = Objects in the area take 7d10.
and ignites flammable objects = only Flammables are ignited, specific inclusion.
that aren't being worn or carried. = specific exclusion from both prior effects.
Can this spell make fire genasi cleric at least a bit better? Will it work with war domain cleric bonus attack?
2024 update
Flame Blade still level 2 spell. 3d6+ spell mod base damage. Scales up a damage die every additional slot level instead of 2 spell slots.
So slightly better but still not worth wasting a slot on
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.